End of Affirmative Action?

TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,226 AG
Right:  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/03/trump-administration-is-breaking-from-obama-era-affirmative-action-policies.html

Left:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/politics/trump-administration-college-admissions/index.html

Center:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-education-race/trump-to-urge-colleges-to-ignore-race-in-admissions-media-idUSKBN1JT1HO

So, what do you think?  Should colleges use race (and other factors) to ensure diversity, or should race (and other things) not be a factor at all and instead only rely on objective measures of academic performance?

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Replies

  • YnotjaxYnotjax Posts: 137 Deckhand
    What about discrimination based on sex?  Is that a part of affirmative action?  With a senior going into college for engineering notice girls are getting accepted into almost every FL college even when their GPA is lower than the boys.  Male graduates either have to take Pace on line programs or have limited a access.
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 9,425 Admiral
    What did Dr. King say?  Judge a man by his character..................
    2013 Pathfinder 22 TE , 150 Yamaha,
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 6,945 Admiral
    What did Dr. King say?  Judge a man by his character..................
    Or the gender. Seems like the best thing to do is choose by qualifications. But that must be really hard to do.
  • sailfish2sailfish2 Posts: 4,164 Captain
    MAGA!!!


    Hoping for better luck next time...... and got it.

    WINNING!
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 23,828 AG
    edited July 3 #6
    It should always be about the best candidate, but with human nature, it doesn't always work out that way. The reason for the laws in the first place was due to the best candidate being overlooked due to their race sometimes. The best candidate is always a matter of personal opinion. 

    How do we ensure the best candidate is chosen without any personal opinions used to cloud that selection, Do we make all hiring decisions without seeing the person, just based on a set of criteria set in stone? What happens when multiple candidates meet that criteria? How do you keep a personal bias out of the equation? 

    The original goal of affirmative action was; if two candidates met the same qualifications  and one was a minority, you chose the minority.

    But any time you say the "best" candidate, you will interject personal bias into the decision and when you have personal bias, the race of the person making that choice will often times determine the race of the best candidate, 

    It is very hard to make all decisions based on nothing but objective criteria. It would be a perfect world if we could,. 




    Mini Mart Magnate

  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,491 Officer
    Asians are punished due to affirmative action. (In some universities ) It is wrong to punish person A, to promote another race/sex/religion.  

    We ALL need to stop labeling and dividing groups in our society and world.  (That would take 90% of the leftist/Marxist ammunition away) 
  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 1,449 Officer
    It should always be merit based.  People shouldn't be punished because they aren't a minority.
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 814 Officer
    Right:  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/03/trump-administration-is-breaking-from-obama-era-affirmative-action-policies.html

    Left:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/politics/trump-administration-college-admissions/index.html

    Center:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-education-race/trump-to-urge-colleges-to-ignore-race-in-admissions-media-idUSKBN1JT1HO

    So, what do you think?  Should colleges use race (and other factors) to ensure diversity, or should race (and other things) not be a factor at all and instead only rely on objective measures of academic performance?

    So what are "other factors" and "other things"??
    Its about race period, you don't want to say that because we cant talk about that here.
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,226 AG
    edited July 4 #10
    Hi 4Ward,

    In point of fact, there are several factors taken into account when it comes to college admission.  Sex is one.  The state the person lives in is another.

    If you would like to make this about race, period, you are certainly entitled to -- the administration seems to have made it so as well.  But that was not what I asked, however.  The question I asked was slightly broader, and hopefully one we can engage each other respectfully on.

    Asked more simply:  Diversity or performance, pick one.

    What do you think?...Mike

    p.s. Candidly, I would hope it's really not binary decision/issue and college entry is not a zero sum policy game.  Cad is starting to go down the path I was hoping the discussion would go, but we'll come back to that later.
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,025 AG
    The most qualified who can afford to pay the tuition  should be the first admitted regardless of race or sex.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,226 AG
    edited July 4 #12
    So payers before scholarships (public and/or private)? 

    So payers before pell grant students? 

    So payers before borrowers?

    I'm not sure I follow you, Fins.
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,025 AG
    So payers before scholarships (public and/or privateI)?

    So payers before pell grant students?

    So payers before borrowers?

    I'm not sure I follow you, Fins.
    Those are all methods of paying.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,226 AG
    edited July 4 #14
    So just rich smart kinds before poor smart kids?

    That's a bit extreme, even for you. :)   Please explain your thinking. 

    Thanks.
  • ScminnowScminnow Posts: 3,766 Captain
    Soft bigotry from the left. If you make it easier for a certain group maybe they know they don’t have to try as hard. Asians aren’t smarter but they sacrifice and work/study real hard.
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 814 Officer
     I did not make it about race,YOU tiptoed around it.
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,226 AG
    Do I strike you as the type of guy who tiptoes around anything?

    Are you new here?
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,047 Admiral
    Somebody just secured the Asian vote  :)
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 6,945 Admiral
    cadman said:
    It should always be about the best candidate, but with human nature, it doesn't always work out that way. The reason for the laws in the first place was due to the best candidate being overlooked due to their race sometimes. The best candidate is always a matter of personal opinion. 
    ....

    But any time you say the "best" candidate, you will interject personal bias into the decision and when you have personal bias, the race of the person making that choice will often times determine the race of the best candidate, 

    It is very hard to make all decisions based on nothing but objective criteria. It would be a perfect world if we could,. 




    I hope you are speaking for yourself. I want the best, male , female , or Martian. Putting on that kind of regulation is stifling personal growth and ability. 
      I keep paying to get things delivered because I’m getting older. Seems that every delivery guy is too good, too tired, irritated that you payed the company to deliver anything. 
       My wife and I had to bring a bunch of windows and doors up a couple of flights because the delivery guy was upset. Until she made them look bad.
       What really needs to happen is no matter who you are, you do the job you are given to the best of your abilities.
      I hate that we are rushing to the bottom with an us versus them mentality.
      
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,047 Admiral
    Scminnow said:
    Soft bigotry from the left. If you make it easier for a certain group maybe they know they don’t have to try as hard. Asians aren’t smarter but they sacrifice and work/study real hard.
    If every parent sent their kids to eve., weekend, and holiday cram schools...
    You can take a day off after you're head of the immunology and molecular genetics dept. at UCLA.
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 814 Officer
    Do I strike you as the type of guy who tiptoes around anything?

    Are you new here?
    Yes and No
    Respectfully of course.


    Right:  http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/07/03/trump-administration-is-breaking-from-obama-era-affirmative-action-policies.html

    Left:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/politics/trump-administration-college-admissions/index.html

    Center:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-education-race/trump-to-urge-colleges-to-ignore-race-in-admissions-media-idUSKBN1JT1HO

    So, what do you think?  Should colleges use race (and other factors) to ensure diversity, or should race (and other things) not be a factor at all and instead only rely on objective measures of academic performance?


    Hi 4Ward,

    In point of fact, there are several factors taken into account when it comes to college admission.  Sex is one.  The state the person lives in is another.

    If you would like to make this about race, period, you are certainly entitled to -- the administration seems to have made it so as well.  But that was not what I asked, however.  The question I asked was slightly broader, and hopefully one we can engage each other respectfully on.

    Asked more simply:  Diversity or performance, pick one.

    What do you think?...Mike

    p.s. Candidly, I would hope it's really not binary decision/issue and college entry is not a zero sum policy game.  Cad is starting to go down the path I was hoping the discussion would go, but we'll come back to that later.


    That is what you asked and I do not need it put more simply, thanks.
    but I will amuse you with my opinion anyway.

    Affirmative action is the ultimate generational copout.
    The grand poobah of participation trophies, you don't even have to show up.
    Not as much about who goes to college and who does not, as it is about making the parents and grandparents that did nothing for their children feel better.

    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • Westwall01Westwall01 Posts: 4,693 Captain
    Just like the line of work i'm in. Some people keep preaching diversity will make us better. What makes us better is hiring those that are the most qualified to carry out the job properly. Personally I don't care what my co-workers color is, sex is, religion is or sexual preference is so long as they earned the job by being the most qualified and maintain such in their actions and commitment.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 23,828 AG
    dave44 said:
    cadman said:
    It should always be about the best candidate, but with human nature, it doesn't always work out that way. The reason for the laws in the first place was due to the best candidate being overlooked due to their race sometimes. The best candidate is always a matter of personal opinion. 
    ....

    But any time you say the "best" candidate, you will interject personal bias into the decision and when you have personal bias, the race of the person making that choice will often times determine the race of the best candidate, 

    It is very hard to make all decisions based on nothing but objective criteria. It would be a perfect world if we could,. 




    I hope you are speaking for yourself. I want the best, male , female , or Martian. Putting on that kind of regulation is stifling personal growth and ability. 
      I keep paying to get things delivered because I’m getting older. Seems that every delivery guy is too good, too tired, irritated that you payed the company to deliver anything. 
       My wife and I had to bring a bunch of windows and doors up a couple of flights because the delivery guy was upset. Until she made them look bad.
       What really needs to happen is no matter who you are, you do the job you are given to the best of your abilities.
      I hate that we are rushing to the bottom with an us versus them mentality.
      
    What do you mean speaking for yourself? 

    when a college or a job sets up a criteria for entrance, there are a lot of people who pass that criteria. Then you have to sort through that group using a more subjective measurement. 

    Everyone says, the "best qualified". That is never an objective measurement. You can have 5 people who make the qualifications for entrance to a college and five professors may choose a different person as "the most qualified" depending on their subjective views of the people applying. 

    It has been proven that humans choose people who are like them when asked to make a choice about a group of people. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • dave44dave44 Posts: 6,945 Admiral
    I put up purple Martin houses at our place. They always choose to be around each other. But if a tree swallow moves in first, they don’t mind a bluebird taking up residence near them, but they will gang up and chase off any Martin that tries to get near the place. 
       Nature is fickle, humans included.
      My opinion about qualified is that no one has the same exact experience and abilities, more qualified people are being passed over for the sake of diversity.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 23,828 AG
    edited July 4 #25
    You have three candidates applying for admission. The criteria for admission is a 4.0  GPA and a 1400 SAT score. 

    Applicant one - 4.2 GPA and a 1480 SAT score.  18 and just graduated. Class President and involved in many social  club activities at his high school. 

    Applicant two - 4.0 GPA and a 1500 SAT score. 22 because he took off four years after school to work and save money. Had a part time job in school and did a little social activities clubs in high school. 

    Applicant three - 4,0 GPA and 1400 on his SAT score. He is 23 years old because he spent 4 years in the military as soon as he graduated. 

    Who is the most qualified?

    Experience and abilities vary by individual. It is an opinion on which of these experiences and abilities makes them the most qualified. 

    I agree, under the current system, many may be passed over at one college for the sake of diversity. But none of those people are being denied an college education, it just might not be at the university they chose to apply to first. 

    Do you think people are being denied a college education any place due to diversity requirements? Do you think there is a dishwasher out there who had a 1600 SAT and 4.2 GPA crying he was denied an college education any place due to diversity? It ain't happening. He may have got turned down by Harvard, but there are lots of colleges that will take him. 


    Mini Mart Magnate

  • dave44dave44 Posts: 6,945 Admiral
    There is more to every one of those stories Cad. But the most qualified with your limited information is 2. The next is number 3. 1 has no life experiences and can easily be molded into an antifa fanatic, if that’s what you are looking for.
  • Gary SGary S Posts: 725 Officer
    Applicant three. He now knows enough about life to get the most out of education.
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 6,945 Admiral
    Gary S said:
    Applicant three. He now knows enough about life to get the most out of education.
    I could have gone that way too. 
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 23,828 AG
    dave44 said:
    There is more to every one of those stories Cad. But the most qualified with your limited information is 2. The next is number 3. 1 has no life experiences and can easily be molded into an antifa fanatic, if that’s what you are looking for.
    It is what I was looking for. You demonstrated prejudice in your selection. 

    That is your opinion and that is where the problems of just saying the most qualified is not the answer. You even interjected your own prejudice into the selection criteria. Do you not think other interject their own prejudice into the selection criteria? 

    Many times race and sex are part of the prejudice on a subconscious level if not overly demonstrated simply due to human nature, 

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • dave44dave44 Posts: 6,945 Admiral
    I’m sorry Cad , you didn’t tell me the race of the individuals, I’ll have to look harder so I can make a racist determination.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 23,828 AG
    dave44 said:
    I’m sorry Cad , you didn’t tell me the race of the individuals, I’ll have to look harder so I can make a racist determination.
    I didn't say you used race or sex. I said you let your prejudice influence your decision. 

    I said racial and sexual prejudice can become a factor for some without them even realizing it. 

    They were separate statements. I guess you don't see your prejudice. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

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