Bad Ideas Never Die in Florida

gladesman

Walker Dog said:

The S FL deer study doesn't have anything to do with antler restrictions, but keep looking for that black helicopter that always seems to circle you, if it makes you feel better.

Correct Walker Dog the study is just a study plus it  isn't complete yet or able to be used to provide policy development guidance to FWC by staff so IMHO you are way premature to attempt undermining my credibility for having that concern.

4WARD

Walker Dog said:

The S FL deer study doesn't have anything to do with antler restrictions, but keep looking for that black helicopter that always seems to circle you, if it makes you feel better.

Man, I probably spend too much time reading this thread. I have gained a wealth of information and study material.
But I have to tell you that every time I read the "Black Helicopter" thing, well it just isn't doing you any good.
I don't care if you don't care or even if you feel you can justify it, just saying.

spangler

Overwhelming predation by cougars, followed by bobcats

Quarterly Project Updates

Project updates for each quarter will be posted within 2 weeks of the end of each period. The next update will cover from April through June 2018 and will be posted by July 14th.

• Quarterly Update January to March 2018
• Quarterly Update October to December 2017
• Quarterly update July-September 2017
• Quarterly Update April - June 2017
• Quarterly Update January - March 2017
• Quarterly Update October - December 2016
• Quarterly Update July - September 2016
• Quarterly Update April - June 2016
• Quarterly Update January - March 2016
• Quarterly Update October to December 2015
• Quarterly Update July – September 2015
• Quarterly Update April – June 2015
• Quarterly Update January – March 2015

From

http://myfwc.com/hunting/by-species/deer/project/

Walker Dog

Unlikely we will ever see the state implement an 8 point or 10 point AR in any DMU.

There are however some interesting preliminary  findings that have been presented from the data they have collected to date though. Some of what is being looked at could have substantial benefits to those who want to see population estimates on a large scale.

gladesman

Very studious of you grasshopper - spangler.

So ironic that photo of the bobcat was just posted here a little while ago - https://www.facebook.com/pg/Big-Cypress-Sportsmens-Alliance-Inc-186623084695131/posts/?ref=notif

gladesman

p

gladesman

spangler said:

Overwhelming predation by cougars, followed by bobcats

Quarterly Project Updates

Project updates for each quarter will be posted within 2 weeks of the end of each period. The next update will cover from April through June 2018 and will be posted by July 14th.

• Quarterly Update January to March 2018
• Quarterly Update October to December 2017
• Quarterly update July-September 2017
• Quarterly Update April - June 2017
• Quarterly Update January - March 2017
• Quarterly Update October - December 2016
• Quarterly Update July - September 2016
• Quarterly Update April - June 2016
• Quarterly Update January - March 2016
• Quarterly Update October to December 2015
• Quarterly Update July – September 2015
• Quarterly Update April – June 2015
• Quarterly Update January – March 2015

From

http://myfwc.com/hunting/by-species/deer/project/

***********************************************************************************

Bob cat tackles large deer by itself - source big cypress sportsmen's alliance facebook page for full story.

gladesman

spangler said:

I'm not sure what the annual limit should be but I'd probably be ok with an 80 or 90% reduction in the current annual take.  I'd be ok with a 50% reduction in daily bag limit.  I think that is overly generous.

After all the 2 a day limit hasn't exactly threatened the deer population.  Why even offer so much?

I completely oppose going from one extreme to another extreme.  2 or 3 Florida sized deer are not going to feed me or my family long at all.  Too much work to put in if there isn't a reasonable potential payoff.

I know most only harvest 0 or 1 deer a year.  Three years for me and I'm at zero.  I hope one day that changes.  I hope one day, many years from now, after all the hard work and lessons learned, I get a pay off.  I'm gonna get there.  Why should those that have put in all the hard work to figure it out, be punished?

And why should I put in so much work with the way this is all trending?  We possibly go from ~400 a year harvest to 5.  That's what's being discussed!  What next?  Maybe 1 a year?  Maybe 1 a year for a $500 tag?

I don't like where this is headed.

btw, sent you a pm bgeorge

spangler it seems like possibly you are becoming frustrated by not having success with deer hunting yet - please don't be. It takes time to become effective - I'm talking years - probably more than 3) especially I you don't have a really good mentor. Below are a few tips I believe in after 50 years of chasing Florida whitetails:

Suggestion #1 - go to solunar sales.com and get copies of their  2018 and 2019 Alden Knight solunar tables.

                          Alden Knight is the originator of the theory - also maybe get their book "Moon Up Moon Down"

                          that explains the development of the theory from day one.Biologists and many hunters scoff at them

                          As I said do NOT listen to them if you want to know when deer move and bed down during stable

                           weather patterns

                   #2 - do NOT listen to anyone who disputes their value - after 30 years of using them I know they help

                           but mainly during stable weather cycles as they tell you in the information in the table book.

                    #3 -  buy a book titled "The Man Who Listens to Horses" by Monty Roberts  ISBN 0-679-45658-9 to make sure it's the same 1997 edition - then focus on the 

                              chapter 6 "Deer Friends" then read the rest of it so as to understand the prey species body language and predator body language they fear

                             and axiomatically how to defeat a deer's defense systems.

         

                    #4 -  use a high power rifle w/scope - grouping 1 inch or less at 100 yds off a bench and hopefully

                             3 inch groups at 50 yds with offhand shooting when necessary.

                     #5 -  gotta hunt a lot IMO to be regularly successful - like at least 12 weekends or more each season

                     #6 - treestands are not the only way - hunting while moving through woods in wind and stopping many times to observe and listen can be very

                             productive but one must begin b4 daylight and stay until after sundown as often as possible

Imagine that you are a very successful deer hunter right now and then ponder what your opinion would be of your suggestions on hunter take limits.

gladesman

N. Cook said:

Big Cypress Preserve is not representative of hunting in Florida....It is a Federal Fup….and anyone who hunts there has every right to be POed...But, we have to be careful about extrapolating the problems there to the state public lands which tend to be managed much better and with the public hunter in mind.....Regarding the Hunting Summit comments...."No place to hunt" was the number one reason for "not buying  a license in Florida"....but...if you attended the seminar where I was on the committee...sitting next to Jack Moller...on PUBLIC LAND HUNTING...you may remember me dumping a large grocery sack full of WMA HUNTING REGULATIONS and FLORIDA HUNTING REGULATIONS on the floor in front of the Committee....literally over a hundred brochures and paper work required for hunters to wade through in order to hunt public land in Florida across the state....My statement and point was the new hunter simply was overwhelmed by the red tape and license rules...AND THAT STILL REMAINS A PROBLEM TODAY....I have always supported the COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF QUOTAS on public lands....with PUBLIC LAND HUNTING REGULATIONS written to MANAGE THE RESOURCE NOT THE HUNTER...….It could be done...but there is a lot of resistance...not only at the FWC, but many hunters who know how to play the system now in place...

We have eliminated all but 2 or 3 quotas out of around 13-15 that were in effect. Very wide open hunting near (within an hours drive) a major population of 3-4 million residents. No crowding at all on the 729,000 acres of Big C but one has to be willing to work hard to get the game (deer that is). Deer not exactly wiped out yet if game trails mean anything - check out google earth image of an area of Big C from Jan 2018.

gladesman

Seems as though even with out of control predators, an annual all seasons combined limit of 2 deer (in place for decades), voluntary checking of deer with no use of an Annual Limit based upon a T&R data gathering system has worked somewhat well. Possibly the glass is actually 1/2 or more full even though we gripe over specific issues, of which there are many in Big C. Google Earth is SSSOOoooo Wonderful.

binellishtr

decades of gathering data off big cyp has not resulted in any better deer herd than any other place in Fl..

spangler

gladesman said:

spangler said:

I'm not sure what the annual limit should be but I'd probably be ok with an 80 or 90% reduction in the current annual take.  I'd be ok with a 50% reduction in daily bag limit.  I think that is overly generous.

.........

..........

Imagine that you are a very successful deer hunter right now and then ponder what your opinion would be of your suggestions on hunter take limits.

Gladesman, Thank you for those tips!  I will pick up both of those books asap!  Much appreciated!

I do want to clarify, that 80-90% reduction, still allows somewhere around a 40-80 deer a year potential.

50% daily reduction, is still one a day.

That's why I said I'd probably be ok with it.  Seems like plenty no matter who you are.  Yet it also sounds like you are giving up a ton, which you wouldn't be.  Trust me, I think becoming successful at hunting should be rewarded in the field to a very high degree.

To those who think 5 a year will help spread the love (which is the only argument that is debatable imho).  I personally don't think so.  Like a lot of the data, I don't trust its interpretation.  Yes, I believe most hunters in Florida harvest 0-1 deer a year.  However, I think most people are generally unsuccessful because hunting is difficult, especially here, and they don't want to put in the time.  Why should they be rewarded?  Why should we be looking to make things easy and call it quality.  Typical everyone gets a trophy mentality driving this broke down bus out of control down the road and at high speeds...

*****

In yet another life, I was a chef and ran a few restaurants.  You will commonly hear people say how difficult the restaurant business is.  They will quote you failure rates.  Tell you how risky it is.  Etc.  Fact is.  Restaurant business is pretty simple.  Not a whole lot to figure out because the model has been dialed in for a long time now.  The reason most restaurant's fail is because Jo-Bob's been told his whole life how great his/her brisket is and how he/she should open a restaurant.  Having never worked a day in a restaurant or understanding how to run a business.

Point is, just because the data says people aren't successful harvesting deer, isn't enough at all to suggest there aren't enough to go around.  May just be most people that don't know what the heck they're doing.  I buy that.

Or maybe...

We just need more opportunity!!!

scoop337

spangler said:

To those who think 5 a year will help spread the love (which is the only argument that is debatable imho).  I personally don't think so.  Like a lot of the data, I don't trust its interpretation.  Yes, I believe most hunters in Florida harvest 0-1 deer a year.  However, I think most people are generally unsuccessful because hunting is difficult, especially here, and they don't want to put in the time.  Why should they be rewarded?  Why should we be looking to make things easy and call it quality.  Typical everyone gets a trophy mentality driving this broke down bus out of control down the road and at high speeds...

Point is, just because the data says people aren't successful harvesting deer, isn't enough at all to suggest there aren't enough to go around.  May just be most people that don't know what the heck they're doing.  I buy that.

Or maybe...

We just need more opportunity!!!

Haha, What data are you looking at that give you reason to believe that providing a "quality" hunt is defined by making things easier?   

Hunt the Zones, if you need more opportunity.

N. Cook

Spangler...annual bag limits will not hurt your chances to take a deer....and no doubt the vast majority of hunters will still kill exactly the same or even have a chance to kill more deer each year....Unless you routinely kill more than three bucks and two does (please these are just numbers to make the point....not a proposal at this time) each year..

gladesman

Newton - keywords being  - "....at this time" - Right? 

gladesman

And an unnecessary rule that states one must (under threat of prosecution) poop in a zip lock and carry it out for proper disposal may not hurt one's chance for a kill either and is about as acceptable and necessary as T&R.

Walker Dog

gladesman said:

And an unnecessary rule that states one must (under threat of prosecution) poop in a zip lock and carry it out for proper disposal may not hurt one's chance for a kill either and is about as acceptable and necessary as T&R.

At least in the opinion of a few

N. Cook

Human crap is not considered a pollutant in the woods any more than deer crap....(naturally occurring...)

Rich M

spangler said:

I'm not sure what the annual limit should be but I'd probably be ok with an 80 or 90% reduction in the current annual take.  I'd be ok with a 50% reduction in daily bag limit.  I think that is overly generous.

After all the 2 a day limit hasn't exactly threatened the deer population.  Why even offer so much?

I completely oppose going from one extreme to another extreme.  2 or 3 Florida sized deer are not going to feed me or my family long at all.  Too much work to put in if there isn't a reasonable potential payoff.

I know most only harvest 0 or 1 deer a year.  Three years for me and I'm at zero.  I hope one day that changes.  I hope one day, many years from now, after all the hard work and lessons learned, I get a pay off.  I'm gonna get there.  Why should those that have put in all the hard work to figure it out, be punished?

And why should I put in so much work with the way this is all trending?  We possibly go from ~400 a year harvest to 5.  That's what's being discussed!  What next?  Maybe 1 a year?  Maybe 1 a year for a $500 tag?

I don't like where this is headed.

btw, sent you a pm bgeorge

I think you need to rethink your hunting efforts if you are gonna try and feed your family with deer meat.

Also the picture you paint is a little out there.  No-one in their right mind is gonna pay $100, never mind $400 for a FL deer tag.

spangler

soooo.... 1 a year, isn't a little out there?

I thought I'd feed my family with deer, hog, birds, rabbits, squirrels, fish...  but I'll take as many deer as is possible within my skill set.  I'll accept what others can take within their skill set.  Just because you aren't a good deer hunter, self admittedly numerous times, doesn't mean you have to be a bad sport.

binellishtr

i think u guys are off track..but I get it

gladesman

Well folks are looking at least (3000 views now with 261 comments). Many comments but from a small group relatively speaking. Many familiar names/avatars speaking a lot on both the 2018 & 2018 threads but with slightly different promotional tactics IMHO.

Topic is actually T&R and annual limit that is touted by it's promoters to be totally dependent on Tag and Report as a criminal charge.

Stumbled into an old thread here on same topic - that's why I was having a bit of deja vu on this thread I guess. Found one old post of mine from the "Deer tag topic on FB" loccated as of today on page 16 of General Hunting forum I'll post here - looks as though some talking points have changed from meaningless terms like "robust herd" "healthy herd" to new tactical verbiage.

Old Post # 107 from Nov 2017 - Deer tag topic on FB

gladesman Posts: 926 Officer

November 2017 #107

Newton U said at post 81 - "....science on maintaining a healthy and robust deer herd ..."

Has GFC or FWC ever set up a health clinic to check health of deer all over Florida ? - I doubt it and haven't heard of it in my 50+ years of hunting here. FWC can't handle what is on their plate now much less more. Don't try to laugh this off because knowing an animals health is no different than human health and it costs more to keep track of than FWC will ever have $$$ to accomplish.

Please explain what a "robust " mean in reference to a deer herd. To me that's a bureaucratic term to impress the ignorant and guide ignorant folks to FWC's/your foregone conclusion that your belief is the answer to a problem.

I experienced the same word game when serving on and monitoring a Scenic Highway - the manipulators spouted that we had to have a state and federally designated scenic hi/byway on US 41 - to preserve the "intrinsic values" of the area. One day for the heck of it I asked for a specific definition of these "values" - guess what - a lot of throat clearing and squirming etc. prior to an answer that was anything but specific in any way. They were caught and they knew it - eventually myself and a handful of not so easily "led" hunters down here killed the program after being in place for 8 years.

Recently another stupid item like deer tag and report called River of Grass Greenway (ROGG) ($150,000,000 bicycle path) was killed after 4 years of work by many others including local hunters that were NOT so easily "led". It got killed due to folks informing elected officials of the truth about a $1,000,000 study that very few people took the time to read - we did which enabled the really right decisions to be made.

Everyone needs to quit listening to any promoters of "tag and report" - it is a bureaucratic lasso trying to be thrown around deer hunters necks in Florida along with ever increasing "antler point restrictions".

Added info bonus - At the 1st GFC meeting I attended in Tallahassee at my expense many years ago my purpose there was to oppose 2nd and 3rd phase quota permits in Big C being proposed by the infamous NPS. At that meeting I asked a question that had been on my mind for a long while - Has GFC ever checked to see if deer in Florida were edible? You would have thought I said the F word 10x in a row - the answer was "stunned silence" by the powers that be and a change the subject answer that wasn't an answer. Now they've never even done that and someone believes they will maintain a deer herd's health - I hope nobody is that dumb.

bgeorge

gladesman said:

Topic is actually T&R and annual limit that is touted by it's promoters to be totally dependent on Tag and Report as a criminal charge.

Not consistent with what I have been told.  I believe that I stated that earlier also.  Talk I hear is that if anything were to be implemented it would be fine only and a larger fine if you had one within x number of months prior.  No criminal charge is on the table that I am aware of.  By no means in the real loop on it but have at least taken the time to attend a few discussions.  

N. Cook

Frank, I understand your experience is impacted by the disaster at Big Cypress involving the FEDs...but, you can not transfer that to the FWC as they are a State agency more in tune with the various Stakeholders and subject to the State Legislature for funding and appointments of Commissioners.  The words "healthy and robust" are used in the Ten Year plan as a "goal"...."hunter satisfaction" is also a term you will see.  All of these terms are subject to interpretation, but most people recognize the intent of their meaning.  The word "healthy" does not necessarily refer to the disease on any one animal, but to the herd as a whole.....we do want the herd to be healthy....not starving...not stricken with CWD...or other diseases....The word "robust" refers to the recruitment and growth of numbers of animals....not necessarily a lot of growth, but a "robust" herd that is flourishing and in tune with the habitats...…"Hunter satisfaction" also does not necessarily mean every body kills a deer...Satisfaction can be "seeing deer" or just knowing the deer are in an area due to sign....or game camera shots...It also can mean how the hunter ranks their opportunity to go hunting for deer and if the hunt is or is not interrupted by crowds of other hunters....We are fortunate to have an agency like the FWC that actually brings in a cross section of hunters on the various Technical Groups to give opinions and ideas to the FWC Staff that is writing the rules...And they do listen and you can often see your ideas in the final regulations...

H20dad

The state needs to sue the federal government over the lack of management in big cypress and the single species management (of a species that is not endangered) to the detriment of ecosystem health. 

The state, its people, and its wildlife is suffering because of federal neglect. We have an administration that is sympathetic to these issues and supports wise management not environmental terrosism, I blame the Fwc for not being proactive. 

Rich M

spangler said:

soooo.... 1 a year, isn't a little out there?

I thought I'd feed my family with deer, hog, birds, rabbits, squirrels, fish...  but I'll take as many deer as is possible within my skill set.  I'll accept what others can take within their skill set.  Just because you aren't a good deer hunter, self admittedly numerous times, doesn't mean you have to be a bad sport.

I do apologize for being negative about FL deer hunting.  It all depends on what your end goals are - if it is enjoying the hunt and getting out of the house, then you are golden. 

You seem to be an idealist.  I analyze the crap out of stuff - run numbers on a lot of stuff.  

Quoted from somewhere above:

 #5 -  gotta hunt a lot IMO to be regularly successful - like at least 12 weekends or more each season.

binellishtr

I rememeber this..  "Has GFC ever checked to see if deer in Florida were edible? "That was great.

" I blame the Fwc for not being proactive." so do a lot of people! 

Remember FWC chose to implement AR full tilt after they told us it was an experiment. FWC also chose to implement all this new stuff AFTER a conclusive survey showed hunter satisfaction was at an all time high! They even did another survey to taylor the responses to justify implementing more AR and more other restrictions.

All this was done not to long after their deer biologist said " your getting restriction like em or not". 

We were restricted with no factual data to justify it... non scientific, non hunter satisfaction survey

H20dad

Saw a spike (3” or so in length) tending a doe with her yearling in tow this weekend. When the spike genes all get passed on, do only mountain lions get to eat deer meat in Florida?

binellishtr

are you not a satisfied hunter? Geez i thought everyone was satisfied in Florida, you must be one of those who dont count meat hunters- BOHICA

gladesman

Not to dwell on Big C Newton, but I will agree that Big C management by NPS aided and abetted by FWC's submissive, passive, obedient, meek dog rolled on it's back waitin' for a tummy rub nature has been a disaster. FWC allowed that to happen IMHO due to protecting their partnerships with feds in other revenue generating areas  (ESA section 6 agreements) by not litigating against NPS based on the environmentally catastrophic results of their presence in that area. There is a "reverter clause" regarding Feds managing land in this state that can be held over NPS's head _and remove them -  if they cause harm to Florida's flora and fauna - NPS has done verifiable harm to them thus my belief that FWC could do something about it any time they choose to -  FWC has chosen to do NOTHING even though at one point I went to Bergeron and proved to him and his personal attorney at an SCI function that FWC was to co-operate Big C which was a more powerful position than the consultative position they believed they had w/NPS.  Shortly after that when Baretto was FWC chair they did get pissed off at NPS due to our prodding them and eventually leading FWC and NPS to enter into a a specific "cooperative agreement" pertaining to Big C - with NPS ceding zero authority to FWC - so the agreement was moot IMO. Many thousands of acres still remain in state ownership within Big C which could be managed under state rules but does FWC push for that - NO. The FWC is complicit with NPS in the extirpation or near extinction  of many wildlife species (coons, otters, armadillo, feral hogs, rabbits etc. etc. ) throughout  the 729,000 acres of fine relatively untouched habitat in Big Cypress national Preserve.

As far as word definitions (robust, healthy etc.) in FWC's 10 year plan goes I'll accept your interpretation of them  that I wasn't aware of but when they are recited as notes from a flute leading the sheep to the cliff to promote Tag and Report in view of so much hypocrisy in many other areas FWC is supposedly responsible for;  I feel the use of these words should be bothersome to many of us. How much faith can anyone have in a 10 year plan that leaves out FWC's flagship R3 program they have so many sincere well intentioned volunteers/hunters/customers actually funding FWC staff's pay, plus giving time and personal hard earned $$$ to support the effort. I would like to know the back story on that snafoo.