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Bad Ideas Never Die in Florida

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  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 2,313 Captain
    Big Cypress Preserve is not representative of hunting in Florida....It is a Federal Fup….and anyone who hunts there has every right to be POed...But, we have to be careful about extrapolating the problems there to the state public lands which tend to be managed much better and with the public hunter in mind.....Regarding the Hunting Summit comments...."No place to hunt" was the number one reason for "not buying  a license in Florida"....but...if you attended the seminar where I was on the committee...sitting next to Jack Moller...on PUBLIC LAND HUNTING...you may remember me dumping a large grocery sack full of WMA HUNTING REGULATIONS and FLORIDA HUNTING REGULATIONS on the floor in front of the Committee....literally over a hundred brochures and paper work required for hunters to wade through in order to hunt public land in Florida across the state....My statement and point was the new hunter simply was overwhelmed by the red tape and license rules...AND THAT STILL REMAINS A PROBLEM TODAY....I have always supported the COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF QUOTAS on public lands....with PUBLIC LAND HUNTING REGULATIONS written to MANAGE THE RESOURCE NOT THE HUNTER...….It could be done...but there is a lot of resistance...not only at the FWC, but many hunters who know how to play the system now in place...
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    I'm curious Gladesman and Benelli, instead of just doing a tremendous amount of speculating and complaining on what's wrong and who's to blame, provide about six detailed solutions to the issues in your hunt zone. 
    No speculation, just factual complaining.
    #1 I would make it a priority to make water flow thru ENP at all costs!
    #2 I would make it a priority to delist the Fl Cougar
    #3 I would make it a priority to delist the lil bird causing all the destruction to S Fl everglades
    #4 I would make it a priority to open all lands and rid the python population and offer bounty monies 365 days a yr day and night hunting
    #5 I would make "staff" present a complete predator management plan
    #6 I would open the almost 1 million acres of land S of Hwy 70 to hunting
    #8 I would pull all enforcement off federal lands until the above were implemented.
    #9 Id get rid of the STA's and open them just like the rest of the lands

    U want more?
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    Many necessary and valid ideas binelli
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    N. Cook said:
    Big Cypress Preserve is not representative of hunting in Florida....It is a Federal Fup….and anyone who hunts there has every right to be POed...But, we have to be careful about extrapolating the problems there to the state public lands which tend to be managed much better and with the public hunter in mind.....Regarding the Hunting Summit comments...."No place to hunt" was the number one reason for "not buying  a license in Florida"....but...if you attended the seminar where I was on the committee...sitting next to Jack Moller...on PUBLIC LAND HUNTING...you may remember me dumping a large grocery sack full of WMA HUNTING REGULATIONS and FLORIDA HUNTING REGULATIONS on the floor in front of the Committee....literally over a hundred brochures and paper work required for hunters to wade through in order to hunt public land in Florida across the state....My statement and point was the new hunter simply was overwhelmed by the red tape and license rules...AND THAT STILL REMAINS A PROBLEM TODAY....I have always supported the COMPLETE ELIMINATION OF QUOTAS on public lands....with PUBLIC LAND HUNTING REGULATIONS written to MANAGE THE RESOURCE NOT THE HUNTER...….It could be done...but there is a lot of resistance...not only at the FWC, but many hunters who know how to play the system now in place...


    Agreed and Thank God Big C is not representative of all Fla. My mention of Big C in a post late yesterday was only to guide a commentor to a previous post that answered a question he had posed to myself and binelli.

    Aside from that I have mentioned Big C as an example early in this thread to show that any Tag and Report system only accounting for the take of deer/turkey etc. by hunters/customers w/o equally accurate wild native (e.g. panther, gator) and invasive (e.g. python) predator take data included is as useless as **** on a boar hog for setting a "science" based annual limit for the take of any species. Hard to understand the obsessive focus that seems to only be on hunters/customers take while disregarding the take of predators and total deer population statewide or per DMU or management - any way one slices the pie - focusing on hunter/customer take alone brings question to the reasoning behind this rule's concept. Of course it has been established that Fla's favorite cats now have females above the Caloosahatchee river marching north to all of Fla. Maybe having real good data on hunter take could provide a foundation to support rules at any point they choose to further reduce hunter deer (panther food) take as panthers/pythons too expand their population densities to the north.

    Must have missed your Shakesperian bag dumping act while at Summit - would like to have seen it - great example of what a newbie faces today - probably in many more states than Fla since management of all hunters is being aligned to the micro management model evolving IMO from  the sources in bold print in post 126 by me as well as their covert partners. Took them many years but they are getting what they want IMHO.

    Possible perfect example of rule overload at this recent FS thread by a new hunter - http://forums.floridasportsman.com/discussion/260160/very-new-very-interested#latest

  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 3,536 Captain
    Deregulate. Got it.

    H2O, that's genius! They could make any unspotted deer legal all season too! That would be so awesome man!!!!

    Frank was right. Some bad ideas never die here.
    Dude. You told me all I need to know about you already.  I know alot a **** hunters. They all have a few things in common. 
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 2,313 Captain
    Binelli….Sounds good to me....!  Great wish list.....
  • spanglerspangler Posts: 2,799 Captain
    I like the list too.  And yes, I would like more! 

    Could you clarify get rid of the STAs?  Do you mean get rid of the levies and shut down operation?  I still don't understand the whole system down there.  Would this be a necessary step to accomplish #1 restore flow to ENP?  But would this even be in the realm of possibilities at this point?
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    The sta's are the pride n joy of many in the USA. They were a dream that became a reality. Only problem they dont work as intended. The surrounding areas do a better job of filtering water and I believe that is documented as well if U dig deep enuff... either way we aint making sparkling water come out of them any better than natures marshes.

    We would be far better off flattening all the dikes and canals but that's not going to happen. 

    ENP will not let water flow..... even though thru everglades restoration and millions of dollars used to build the infrastructures to send water to those areas.
  • spanglerspangler Posts: 2,799 Captain
    Madness
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    Not that it's actually needed for management but, there is data on predation losses. Some of it is old and some is being collected currently.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    H20dad said:
    Deregulate. Got it.

    H2O, that's genius! They could make any unspotted deer legal all season too! That would be so awesome man!!!!

    Frank was right. Some bad ideas never die here.
    Dude. You told me all I need to know about you already.  I know alot a **** hunters. They all have a few things in common. 
    Thanks Dude! I too have met some fine ones. I appreciate the complement! Very kind of you. 😉
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 2,313 Captain
    The STAs are functioning and are always an experiment as nothing like them exists on this scale in the world....The vegetation management, especially the first work with a lot of hydrilla and SAV, made the STAs duck magnets....not intended...just happened....shallow marshes full of hydrilla....who would not have guessed???....But, today the experiments with different types of vegetation tends more to larger expanses of cattails....not good for the duck or duck hunters...but, a lot of open marsh remains and the ducks come....The duck hunting management is careful not to disturb the functions of the STAs....To take runoff water from the EAA...and some Lake O water..and put the water through a series of vegetated marshes where the plants eat the phosphorous....Water goes in at 80 to 120 ppb P....comes out about 18-25 ppb P....that water goes into the giant WCAs and is further reduced to about 8 to 10 ppb P.....meeting the Federal Mandate for water allowed to flow south into Everglades National Park...The first year duck hunting was allowed we had 25 permits for two hunters one morning a week...for ten weeks....500 or so hunting opportunities...We have expanded the program to some Friday hunting, Sat and Sunday hunting, morning and afternoor sessions with three on a permit....all together about 20,000 hunting opportunities a year.....The Quota Permits are hard to get, but there is a NO SHOW WALK IN PROGRAM with a draw to fill any permits that do not show up.....The best year about 3000 individual hunters bagged about 43,000 ducks...a little less than that lately because the cattails have reduced the size of the open water....That year about 15% of all ducks taken in Florida were shot on the STAs....about 10,000 actual acres of hunting marsh scattered in three STAs at the time. (total STA acreage is about 60,000 acres today,about 20,000 acres open and huntable).
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    Not that it's actually needed for management but, there is data on predation losses. Some of it is old and some is being collected currently.

    Sincere question - Why wouldn't predator take data be necessary in conjunction with TR data?

    Any idea how anyone goes about counting deer or turkeys killed by predators on each dmu, WMA or statewide - I am clueless as to how that data would/could be gathered with any provable accuracy?
  • spanglerspangler Posts: 2,799 Captain
    I'm sure it's extrapolated from some unique data set.  i.e. the southern whitetail deer study... and then applied across the boards using fancy algorithms to adjust for varying conditions.  This is my real problem with all of this 'data'.  I have no confidence any of it is complete enough to apply as good science.  I'm certain it's all based on modeling.

    Why aren't size/quantity restrictions not enough? It clearly has worked to restore game populations from over hunting.  Been working on the fisheries too.  Fairly long term evidence to support it works.




    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    Was thinking walkerdog was a professional in some wildlife field hence the questions directed at him.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    The management approach being used isn't based on only harvesting a certain percentage of the population. When management intensity is low as in the case of most statewide programs across the country, so are the data inputs required.  If they actually were implementing the "trophy" management that some like to claim, then they would need detailed survey/harvest data/etc. 
  • bgeorgebgeorge Posts: 1,652 Captain
    gladesman said:
    Not that it's actually needed for management but, there is data on predation losses. Some of it is old and some is being collected currently.

    Sincere question - Why wouldn't predator take data be necessary in conjunction with TR data?

    Any idea how anyone goes about counting deer or turkeys killed by predators on each dmu, WMA or statewide - I am clueless as to how that data would/could be gathered with any provable accuracy?
    Stool samples are looked at to see what many animals have in their diet.  They then look at quantity over time.  It can be difficult to determine what it killed vrs scavenged.  None the less it is one less animal.

    When they addressed overall BMU bear quotas all measurable take was removed from what was available to hunters.  Road kill and the numbers killed by FWC bear responses to conflicts.  Things like bear on bear death was not part of the equation.  

    South FL has so many issues and very little of them are in the ability of the State or FWC to change. 

    More people need to educate the general public on the cat problem.  Triple S can not keep up with the recruitment rate.  If the South wants help with their problem the rest of the State has to feel the pain.  Start pushing to have cats released into N Fl where the deer populations are so high they can still have a doe week.  Cat running through capital hill would not hurt.

    Right now people believe that agriculture is responsible for all the water.  Like they grow it on a vine or something.  All these people in towns are quick to forget how much water used to occupy their land and how much runoff they are creating.  We do have a real problem with stuff that makes the news.  They just get the root cause wrong.

    Little bird issue.  Torch the area after they are done nesting for the year. They may return back to some other place to nest next year and not stop the flow of the water.  

    Want more water to flow south. Wrap a hummer up with gold tin foil and blow up a few water control structures.  They will be quick to look at someone else.

    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    As you know, a deer research project has been going on in S FL for a while now. Mortality sources and rates are just some of the things they are looking at.
  • spanglerspangler Posts: 2,799 Captain
    edited July 2018 #230
    Overwhelming mortality from panthers.  Anyone know when the final results/conclusions of that study are due to be published?
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Posts: 1,652 Captain
    spangler said:


    Why aren't size/quantity restrictions not enough? It clearly has worked to restore game populations from over hunting.  Been working on the fisheries too.  Fairly long term evidence to support it works.




    What is being discussed is the quantity side and if a limit was to be placed on harvest how can you keep up with it to enforce it.  You are right in that these models have been used very successfully over the years. I have long thought it to be ill managed with how low the deer densities are in most of FL to not have an annual limit.  Personally I see someone who wants no limit to just be the opposite but just as extreme as someone who does not want any hunting.  I realize that some people may find it challenging to write on a piece of paper but I think that the average person can handle it and it will not seriously hinder the recruitment and retention process. 
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • spanglerspangler Posts: 2,799 Captain
    Honestly, it's not so much the T&R that bothers me.  I don't think it should be mandatory though.

    What bothers me the most, and doesn't seem like anyone else is in an uproar about it, is talk about going from a 2 a day harvest (which I personally think is excessive) to 5 a year (2 bucks, 3 does), which means 2 deer a year for most? public land hunters.

    This is a HUGE problem.  So many reasons. 
    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    Where did you hear the 2 buck 3 doe annual bag numbers? I've not heard that before. Would be more likely to be higher on the buck number than the doe number, I would think.
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 3,536 Captain
    bgeorge said:
    gladesman said:

    Little bird issue.  Torch the area after they are done nesting for the year. They may return back to some other place to nest next year and not stop the flow of the water.  

    Want more water to flow south. Wrap a hummer up with gold tin foil and blow up a few water control structures.  They will be quick to look at someone else.

    I have watched some of the Miccosukee videos and I’m honestly amazed they haven’t done both of these things to kill those little birds. Those birds are being used as an excuse to extinguish the tribes historical existence. Amazing. 
  • bgeorgebgeorge Posts: 1,652 Captain
    spangler said:
    Honestly, it's not so much the T&R that bothers me.  I don't think it should be mandatory though.

    What bothers me the most, and doesn't seem like anyone else is in an uproar about it, is talk about going from a 2 a day harvest (which I personally think is excessive) to 5 a year (2 bucks, 3 does), which means 2 deer a year for most? public land hunters.

    This is a HUGE problem.  So many reasons.  

    First question, based on the information you have learned about deer in FL, opportunity, access etc., what do you believe an annual bag limit should be?  Only 15% of people surveyed in multiple surveys totally oppose any annual bag limit.  

     In the discussions I have observed there is much attention to what bag limits may be and what percent of hunters various scenarios may impact.  If you go to the harvest data for the last couple of years you can see what the percentage of people harvest 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 ... bucks.  Similar numbers for antler-less exist.  That info combined with survey data about bag limits will aid staff in the process of considering IF and WHAT may be proposed for hunting rule changes next year. 
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    edited July 2018 #236
    post 228 regarding predator take states - "Stool samples are looked at to see what many animals have in their diet.  They then look at quantity over time.  It can be difficult to determine what it killed vrs scavenged.  None the less it is one less animal.

    When they addressed overall BMU bear quotas all measurable take was removed from what was available to hunters.  Road kill and the numbers killed by FWC bear responses to conflicts.  Things like bear on bear death was not part of the equation.  "

    I believe bgeorge is addressing how FWC arrives at predator take in his statement (italics by me) above. Using the wiggle room words "measurable take" leaves too much room to specify a wild guess as scientific fact IMHO. An example scientific defect if true to me comes from the Panther Recovery Implementation Team (PRIT) May 5, 2018 meeting report/minutes/notes I will attach here. Maybe just scroll down about 3/4 thru the pdf to the sentence highlighted by me in yellow where these minutes report PRIT being up for substituting as a "surrogate" bear movement data for lacking panther movement data in order to locate multi million highway modifications to assist panthers moving thru I-4 corridor near Orlando and points North. The word "surrogate" by PRIT is equal to "measurable take"  by bgeorge in the excerpt above in italics. OBTW the PRIT is a multi agency (USFWS, FWC, FDOT etc.) and stakeholder and NGO(e.g. Defenders of Wildlife) team not just FWC. Just included this as an example of how science can become fake science with very few knowing.

    Can't imagine any knowledgeable outdoorsperson or hunter/customer accepting that concept of developing a reasonably accurate idea of the number of deer taken by predators as it relates to a TR/AL criminal stigma rule proposal. No wonder why the anti's tore up FWC in their fight against the bear hunt. Honestly that "stool sample and quantity over time" smells like stool and  and sounds like voodoo drum beats -  if this is what FWC goes by and bgeorge is on point.

    Would be interesting to know if FWC has detailed data including work orders for predator stool data gathering given to biologists and individual reports from every single stool inspection expedition conducted by an FWC biologist (tied to their name) on hunting areas in Fla (e.g. dmu, WMA, WEA etc.)

    Maybe we hunters/customers could have a rule imposed upon us to go poop in a zip-lock and turn it in at check stations weekly or mail it to FWC. All predator take data could maintain consistency that way in the name of scientific quality and integrity.

    Bonus Tale from the Swamp - Many years ago a trusted no BS type guy who was a friend of mine told me how he enjoyed hunting snipe after deer season ended down in Big Cypress. He explained how he would always go to the check station and report how many snipe he shot so the scientists would have good numbers. He believed in FWC and the system and science as many here seem to. He went on to relay a telephone conservation he had with the FWC biologist in charge of handling all the data from the FWC check in slips we all must use in Big C or else get hit with a level one infraction. My friend asked how the snipe numbers added up and the biologist answered that he just guessed on them rather than going thru all the many many check in slips. Understand this was just a casual post hunting season conversation between my friend and I with no politics or associated agendas involved although after hearing that I did express dismay at what a scientist could get away with. Is this a one off incident? - who knows - is anyone looking over FWCs shoulder?
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,797 Admiral
    Maybe swampwalker and walkerdog could answer that.. they seem to be tight w the FWC
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    edited July 2018 #238
    Obviously plenty of people looking over their shoulders. Something they are used to as a public agency.

    BTW, diet studies aren't used to quantify predation. Like I said though, there is a study going on that looks at predation rates and many other things in Frank's favorite part of the swamp
  • spanglerspangler Posts: 2,799 Captain
    I'm not sure what the annual limit should be but I'd probably be ok with an 80 or 90% reduction in the current annual take.  I'd be ok with a 50% reduction in daily bag limit.  I think that is overly generous.

    After all the 2 a day limit hasn't exactly threatened the deer population.  Why even offer so much?

    I completely oppose going from one extreme to another extreme.  2 or 3 Florida sized deer are not going to feed me or my family long at all.  Too much work to put in if there isn't a reasonable potential payoff.

    I know most only harvest 0 or 1 deer a year.  Three years for me and I'm at zero.  I hope one day that changes.  I hope one day, many years from now, after all the hard work and lessons learned, I get a pay off.  I'm gonna get there.  Why should those that have put in all the hard work to figure it out, be punished?

    And why should I put in so much work with the way this is all trending?  We possibly go from ~400 a year harvest to 5.  That's what's being discussed!  What next?  Maybe 1 a year?  Maybe 1 a year for a $500 tag?

    I don't like where this is headed.

    btw, sent you a pm bgeorge




    There will never be a really free and enlightened state until the state comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all its own power and authority are derived.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 1,362 Officer
    edited July 2018 #240
    Obviously plenty of people looking over their shoulders. Something they are used to as a public agency.

    BTW, diet studies aren't used to quantify predation. Like I said though, there is a study going on that looks at predation rates and many other things in Frank's favorite part of the swamp

    Understood that the down swamp swamp I frequent has suffered long term unaddressed predator issues but T&R rule is statewide so IMHO what was never as far as I know been studied at a serious level in other areas of Florida  - FWC now has a golden opportunity to include an ongoing predator study and data base unless they already allow liberal hunting of species such as bobcats (I actually think they do - not sure how liberal) - known to be a prolific deer killer. Saw a bobcat as large as a doe deer in OK slough one day when bicycle scouting the area - haha No I was not hallucinating, inebriated or on drugs and at an OK Slough management in LaBelle one night when I reported my sighting and many laughed at me but the FWCs biologist lady from OK slough standing in our group confirmed she had seen what I saw with her own story of when this bobcat leaped across her truck hood and was a long as the hood was wide while driving through OK slough one night.

    The deer study in Big Cypress National Preserve and area is the biggest and the most detailed ever that I believe " JM Anectdotal O " will only lead to a 6, 8, 10 point APR so as to prevent hunter take to protect panther while keeping a few of us spending deer hunting dollars. I do believe panther predation is on the studies plate not sure on bobcat (although NPS has data on them proving they're a prolific deer killer) no idea if pythons are on their plate but we all now large pythons maybe 14 ft and up can take full size does. Knowing a medium size python can handle a fawn or yearling.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 2,155 Captain
    The S FL deer study doesn't have anything to do with antler restrictions, but keep looking for that black helicopter that always seems to circle you, if it makes you feel better.
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