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A couple of other points.....I have heard no one suggest more than a ticket and fine for not tagging a deer. No felony.
Private Land rules would also require Tag and Report, with large properties on the special FWC deer management programs (requiring a supervising biologist) allowed to include the information in their annual report.
These are my personal suggestions and also the reflection of what I have heard from the diverse DMTAG participants over five years of meetings...
Concerning penalties, there absolutely has to be criminal penalties associated with failing to report. Just like with most other wildlife violations, I would presume the penalties would be misdemeanors unless the person has several prior offenses (currently the existence of prior wildlife violations within so many years allow wildlife violations the be recharged as more serious offenses).
The problem isn't the good hunters out there who regulate themselves because its the right thing to do. The problem is a minority of poachers are killing the majority of the deer in many areas. I've begun an unofficial initiative with the local FWC officers to crack down on poaching in my region of north Florida. When they bring me good cases of poaching I ride them out to the end. I don't generally try to put the poachers in jail, but I do force probation on them, make them pay heavy fines, and I make them lose their hunting privileges for 1 to 3 years (that's what really makes them squirm).
What I've been told by the FWC is that internally they estimate that on a particular WMA here, around 100 deer are killed illegally a year. Based on old harvest reports I can read from when reporting was required in this WMA, that would mean that for every 1 deer killed legally, 1 to 2 are killed illegally, with illegality being defined as taking deer over bait, at night, out of season, or undersized bucks.
If you think poachers are just a minor problem, you're wrong. Poachers are **** the resource and we're eating the crumbs. Worrying about what legal hunters are doing is laughable when it appears that in many areas, poachers are killing more deer than legal hunters at up to a 2:1 ratio. If someone could snap their fingers and end poaching, within two years our deer heard would undergo a miraculous transformation.
Its darn hard catching a poacher in the act. But if failing to report a harvested deer is an instant zap, it will be easier to reign in that illegal harvest. Right now they don't have to hide their deer once they get them out from where they've shot them (they don't even have to hide undersized bucks because all they say up here is they killed the buck across the DMU border where forkies are legal). With a tag and report system, even catching them with a deer in the back of the truck or at the skinning rack with an unreported deer is enough to write them up and force a penalty on them. That's the way it ought to be. That's the only way it will be practical for an agency with very few field officers to start making a dent on these very experienced poachers who are dominating the take.
For decades we have managed our natural resources, including fish and wildlife, to restore historical conditions that existed prior to European settlers arriving in North America. This is akin to driving a car by looking in the rearview mirror. As long as the road is long and straight it can work. However, if there are changes ahead, it likely will lead to problems. We need a new approach to our management of species that fall onto the “leaning J” platform.
With all due respect Newton, this tag and report issue has been a burr under your saddle ever since I've known you over many years.
FYI - Felony and misdemeanors are classified as Criminal charges as per FS 775.08 (2) that will permanently harm a persons future financial viability in a major way - read it - http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0775/0775.html
Every dmtag member should be required to fully understand the legal details of what they are talking about at their meetings.
Non Criminal Violation is the only charge specification that mentions NON Criminal - as per this excerpt from FS 775.08 (3) (bold by gladesman - "The term “noncriminal violation” shall mean any offense that is punishable under the laws of this state, or that would be punishable if committed in this state, by no other penalty than a fine, forfeiture, or other civil penalty. A noncriminal violation does not constitute a crime, and conviction for a noncriminal violation shall not give rise to any legal disability based on a criminal offense. "
Sorry can't shake fine print from 775.08 copy paste - FS 775.083 (1) (e) specifies Maximum fine of $500.00 could be less but that maximum is abusive IMO for a paper mistake.
Nice of you Newton to verify dmtag also large private landowners and rich lease hunters get off the hook again like they did on the turkey hunting ammo rule restrictions public land hunters are stuck with via dmtag support in the past.
Link to FS 775 - http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0775/0775.html
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Florida needs two completely different sets of hunting rules....PUBLIC LAND HUNTING REGULATIONS and PRIVATE LAND HUNTING REGULATIONS...Obviously, the PUBLIC LAND regulations will have shorter seasons, antler and doe rules and lower individual bag limits....BUT ALL PUBLIC LAND WILL BE OPEN during those seasons. It would be best if "opening day" for both Private and Public lands be the same to reduce the private land hunter's incentive to jump on the opening day, further crowding those who can only hunt public land.
No set of regulations will make everyone happy...but, recognizing the need to improve "spontaneous hunting"...versus quota limitations is the key. Yes, a Public Land Deer Gun Season may be shorter, and certainly no "2 a day" bag...BUT, if you hunt most public land today you are on a Quota and have THREE DAYS to hunt on a prime piece of habitat...then, if you keep hunting you are crowded on the romp and stomps for the rest of the season.....It would be better to be able to pick up the gun and go hunting wherever you liked, near home!, whenever you liked for a few weeks.....and if you bow hunt, for additional relatively generous seasons.
Manage the resource....not the hunter....
From the informal "get the poacher good campaign" you mentioned working with FWC enforcement folks you have a bit of an attitude but at the same time you said you don't go for jail time for defendants usually. Well once a criminal penalty is set up for the non poaching paper TR rule what about other prosecutors that want to use the TR rule to the maximum penalty the same as U are doing for poachers. Let's face it Bullfrog you have an attitude against poachers (no fault implied) but one might consider what you're doing as something like a vendetta - but they're poachers - so really no foul.
From your comment's mention of poaching a certain WMA in your area it seems like FWC wardens need to spend much more stake out time "undercover day and night in camo" - real law enforcement - TR ain't gonna ever solve or greatly reduce poaching. Truly seems bad to institute a rule like TR just so wardens and prosecutors like yourself can get an "instant $500 max zap" on joelunchbucket with with a totally legally taken deer - not everyone is a poacher Bullfrog even if poachers do have U pretty pissed off.
As you said Bullfrog - "Worrying about what legal hunters are doing is laughable when it appears that in many areas, poachers are killing more deer than legal hunters...." Difficult for me to understand why you are so TR oriented when realistically most if not all that comply will be that majority of "legal self regulating" hunters you referred to twice. TR won't ever runoff poachers IMHO which seems to be the major problem in your area.
Remember TR is in conjunction with annual limits - making TR necessary to supposedly more accurately assess the number of deer legally killed. Poachers won't be likely to call in a TR report at midnight on a fresh killed doe in April.
OBTW Agree 100% with the penalty - no hunt for 1-3 years is the biggest attention getter of all for a poacher since I would guess serious poachers are the most obsessed hunters of all.
[email protected] Big difference from my perspective is that TR violators for- no matter what reason they choose not to comply - will only be failing to report -- the kill of legal game killed during legal hunting season killed during legal hunting hours. That's not a criminal act in my book - at best it's a bureaucratic violation (white collar violation) but poaching is a much bigger (criminal/theft) deal in some areas as you said. Remember what you said Bullfrog - "The problem isn't the good hunters out there who regulate themselves because its the right thing to do." and these "good hunters" IMO as yours would follow any rule FWC implements while a small minority causing some non compliance of TR could hardly significantly negatively effect accuracy of reported deer kills - surely to expand to any additional species de jour FWC will add to TR later.
Any charge for violating TR ( not that I agree it ever existing) shouldn't exceed penalties assessed for another bureaucratic infraction (white collar snafoo) such as hunting without a license as per FS 379.401(1) 8 (c) 1 as excerpted here - (c)1. The civil penalty for committing a Level One violation involving the license and permit requirements of s. 379.354 is $50 plus the cost of the license or permit, unless subparagraph 2. applies. Alternatively, except for a person who violates s. 379.354(6), (7), or (8)(f) or (h), a person who violates the license and permit requirements of s. 379.354 and is subject to the penalties of this subparagraph may purchase the license or permit, provide proof of such license or permit, and pay a civil penalty of $50.
Another example of FWC and dmtag's arbitrary non science or data driven decision making. Although crying relatives at 2 meetings had a lot of impact and was sad - it didn't justify IMHO restricting hunters again.
If FWC wanted real safety they should have passed a rule that turkey boys and girls wear orange like all others are required to wear.
Pretty audacious in post #45 Newton to move to a new state and being so opinionated on how they manage things from day one. Personally I could never bring myself to do that considering what I've experienced happen here Fl and especially S Fl and witnessed take place across the country - such arrogance.
Many have been griping for years about outsiders coming in and trying to tell folks what to do and how to act and are very sick of it.
Can't agree knowing how many deer are being taken out of the herd is so critical Newton until such time as FWC knows how many deer are in the herd and as you said at the meeting FWC you don't even believe they know other than guesstimate.
No offense but for making the statement to follow I hereby Nominate you for President of Defenders of Wildlife and/or Sierra Club - ".Obviously, the PUBLIC LAND regulations will have shorter seasons, antler and doe rules and lower individual bag limits....BUT ALL PUBLIC LAND WILL BE OPEN during those seasons. " Un-Freekin Believable and extremely disappointing. Never thought of you as an elitist but may have to in the future.
Thank Almighty God you ain't runnin' things although you do swing some weight.
First, you're arguing as if tag and report is a new concept that hasn't been tried before. Tag and report is very common across the country. And they're virtually no where except maybe in the darkest heart of the 'glades where someone isn't in cell reception within a short time of getting a deer loaded. I don't have a stand I can't shop Amazon on. Its not an unreasonable imposition on hunters. Anyone can get it done.
Concerning who this will effect, the majority of hunters aren't killing deer. Even considering the estimated legal take, 12% of hunters in Florida take 66% of the bucks. The harvest is very concentrated into the hands of a few. The little bit of sacrifice those few may have to make in the name of game management for the good of all by taking some extra minutes to report a harvest is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
As far as how this will catch poachers, my experience has been that its not hard to catch a poacher with a deer. But its very hard to prove where or how he killed the deer. Poachers are in it for the numbers and for the size and often for the bragging. The normal pattern is to kill the deer illegally then show the deer off and lie about how they killed it legally. If they have to hide all aspects of the deer they kill then many of them will lessen their pursuits. And as far as catching and prosecuting them, its far easier to prove possession of an unreported deer.
Generally poachers aren't popping off pregnant does in April. The odd sustenance poacher maybe. But most poaching goes on during the legal season or just on the edges of it so poachers can get an edge on big bucks and then weave plausible cover stories to explain where the bucks are coming from. Again, if they have to report each buck, that's going to stop. Because yes, bag limits would be going hand in hand with this. And we need them. 2 bucks 3 does sounds good to me. Eliminate doe week and unlimited doe harvesting in bow season and let hunters take their three does when and however they want within the season. 5 deer per person is plenty even for the most discriminate meat hunter. A family of 4 could still get 20 deer if all members are old enough to hunt.
Would you support a second violation for failure to report being a crime?
I'm so tired of hearing this kind of pro criminal BS that believes that everything in the system is built around getting money. That's complete garbage that I have to hear criminals whine about on a daily basis. You're accusing me and us (the FWC) of trying to scam people out of money. That's a very serious accusation. Would you prefer that I instead just jail them and let them save their money? The penalty has to be enough to make it hurt. If an illegal buck costs $500 a pop, plus whatever attorneys fees and whatnot go with it to fight the charge, that makes poaching an expensive proposition. The only cent that State Attorney's Offices ever see from a criminal prosecution is a mandatory $100 cost of prosecution that goes to Tallahassee. But I suppose I can just throw these good ole boys in jail and make them lose their jobs for killing a deer illegally. But by golly they can keep their fines.
That's a pretty serious accusation to accuse a prosecutor of having a vendetta. As in, that's the most insulting thing you could accuse me of. You are in fact implying fault, but you're dancing all around it. I think poachers as scum that need a spanking. That doesn't mean I have a vendetta. Vendettas are personal. I have a poacher that lives up the road to me that I've purposely never reported for the very reason I don't want to use my position for my gain. My deer here would thank me. But he gets a pass for the very reason I'm not going to abuse my power. Eventually he'll get caught on his own without my intervention. Which will be his 5th or 6th wildlife violation. And no, I won't be involved in that case. I don't live in the county I prosecute in.
There's no such thing. I'm probably one of 4 or 5 prosecutors state wide that vaguely gives a **** about wildlife violations. Most are non-native city slickers who don't hunt and see wildlife violations as a waste of their time. Poachers know they bare no significant consequences if they get caught. They even talk about it among themselves.
Recently I prosecuted a case that was connected to a state-wide ring of poachers who sold game meat on the black market. Within that operation, the ring leader talked about why he got into selling wildlife meat and poaching for profit. He was a convicted drug dealer who did prison time for prior drug convictions. He left the drug trade and took up poaching because the pay was the same and in his words, nothing would happen to him if he got caught in the same way he would likely be shipped to prison for running drugs.
Prosecutors need to get more hard core about poaching cases. And hard-core just means enforcing basic penalties that would happen in any other minor crime. Most wildlife violations, even when arrested, become civil tickets or PTI cases by the time the process is done. Making more of them actually plea to misdemeanors and enforcing just enough penalty to make it hurt would make a big difference. But that's not likely to happen state wide. The most I can do is making poaching hurt in my circuit of north Florida and the more it costs a poacher in terms of fees, loss of privileges, and sometimes loss of freedom, the better off honest hunters will be.
Level 2 violations...
"Rules or orders of the commission relating to tagging requirements for wildlife and fur-bearing animals."
I also see that my mention of dmtag apparently caused you to focus on that rather than non data based decision making which was the main thrust I intended for the post.. In any regard I don't think dmtag members shouldn't comment however they want at a meeting but when they often if not always mention their dmtag membership it creates an atmosphere IMO that "dmtag the entity " is getting many times at bat on issues the entity is suggesting either pass or not pass. Not positive but for conversation's sake here I'll assume dmtag has one FWC staff person present dmtag's positions on issues to FWC at meetings - as it should be IMO. Then when non voting members of dmtag introduce themselves to FWC and the audience at the podium mention they are speaking on their own behalf and/or any downstream organization they represent (e.g. ECC, Fl Bowhunters, UW-F etc) and NOT mention their dmtag membership so as to prevent the perception/reality they are trying to inflate their status/credibility with the general audience at a minimum. I respect folks for taking time to be so involved with assisting FWC but it is my sincere opinion things need to be set up for a bit more fairness not that fairness flies well in politics which all of this kind of sort of is. Off Subject Question - Maybe someone can inform me of a simple search term to use on FWC's web site's home page search window in upper right to arrive at dmtag detailed minutes of meetings and past FWC Commission meeting videos - have tried a lot recently with no luck -
Thanks for letting me know I was part of a 12% minority until the last 2 years.
Wow you know way more than I do about poachers techniques so I'll defer to you on that but I still have a big problem with anyone not really a criminal/poacher/drug dealer etc. being stuck with the "criminal" tag on their back for life due to a misdemeanor charge even if they are lucky a prosecutor or maybe judge in the mood can cut slack on that with what you said here - "Most wildlife violations, even when arrested, become civil tickets or PTI cases by the time the process is done..." (PTI??) but I will admit I run the worst case no slack on first charge thru my mind to form my opinion of this charge level issue -
Uh Oh puttin' me in a box with this - Don't quite understand this - not being so familiar with these laws/rules - "Would you support a second violation for failure to report being a crime?"
Never meant to infer you were getting the $500 which is the maximum fine (could be less I guess) but or that it was a money gimmick for government - I just assume these fines are arrived at by legislative debate and are actually somewhat arbitrary - as I said I look from worst case angle. No problem with paper violator paying something but 500 is a bit much to me but again the criminal tag is a non starter to me and possibly many others - who knows?
My sincerest apology for the "vendetta" word. Should have looked up the definition but didn't take the time. Had no intention of being so harsh since I appreciate and respect you for the time you are taking here to educate everyone listening including me.
Never realized prosecutors don't care much about game violations and continue learning here and again let me convey my appreciation to you. Much better to learn here instead of a court room on the other side from you.
Have a Good Day.