Bad Ideas Never Die in Florida

gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
Watched some of the hunting related aspects of the June 19 & 20, 2018 meetings. Interesting to hear of an annual limit for deer being brought up again along with speakers some of whom were dmtag members express their full support for bringing the deer dmtag "tag and report" (e.g. fill out a form b4 gutting a deer then calling the report in to FWC b4 gutting the deer.) One hunter even said he would like to see it it for turkeys and snapper.

OBTW last time this was attempted I do believe FWC and dmtag supported convicted violators would end up with a high misdemeanor conviction which means you have a Permanent Criminal record to ruin your job applications/career forever for not filling out a piece of scrap paper and making a call (so if this flies cell phones are mandatory and that they have a signal no matter where U are) .

Looks like a strategy and talking points to push it have been developed already - maybe during last months dmtag meeting one dmtag member mentioned where a presentation was given relative to the "tag and report" concept. IMHO the Trojan Horse to push it will be the supposed need for an annual limit on deer with science/data to properly manage a annual deer limit. Next dmtag and staff et al try to  convince/browbeat everyone that this is needed - Then after that task is accomplished the pushers of this will say that we must know how many deer are killed to set the "annual limit" otherwise it is "useless" (dmtag member 6-19-2018) and then we're off to the races on this "tag and report" issue again. Another old stale talking point will be that many other states do this - so Why not Florida.

Of course this will probably only impact public land folks because private land folks didn't stand for it 6 years ago and won't stand for it this time and are much more savvy/powerful apparently then public land folks.

Speakers I witnessed promoting an annual limit and "tag and report" spoke during public comments 6-19-2018 Part 2 of this FWC meeting on the Florida Channel - https://thefloridachannel.org/videos/6-19-18-florida-fish-wildlife-conservation-commission-part-2/  Speakers spoke at the following time stamps of the video 16 min-15 sec, 20 min- 20sec,   28 min-00 sec,  1 hr-27 min - 00 sec. Surprising that none of these "tag and report supportive" speakers well known on this forum haven't posted anything here yet about this issue that was quite controversial in the past -  considering they have been discussing it at their last dmtag meeting and plan to at next Thursdays meeting as mentioned by at least one speaker at this FWC meeting.
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Replies

  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    Yup, personal agendas, yankee agendas, unfortunately none of those speakers understand that you can't manage a herd until you know what your herd consists of. Tags arent going to tell you anything until you know your herd and set herd goals.

    We should vote on who we should allow on DMTAG and make sure they keep the public informed.
    Bgeorge is here all the time, so is Newton

    Chuck couldnt handle the pressure so he stopped posting here but he's more concerned how it can benefit him and not us.
    Lots of DMTAG members quit the group because it never made sense and that should tell FWC  and the rest of us something.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    I wasn't at the last DMTAG meeting or commission meeting and I haven't seen the minutes or the video, so I can't speak to what was or wasn't said but I would say that, although a couple of DMTAG members have continued to frequently ask that implementing a tag and report system be reconsidered, staff have been consistent in saying that they have moved beyond considering the topic because the survey accomplishes the same thing.

    Have you verified with staff that they are reconsidering a tag and report option or is that just what you have concluded from what you are hearing?
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 22 #4


    Walker Dog and all others - Please consider looking at the suggested time stamps to understand where I'm coming from. Truly hoping the video link works better for others than it did for me.

    Are there other links to FWC meetings besides florida channel?

    Below is what I have concluded from watching and listening to the video link supplied above and past involvement with the tag and report idea years ago and knowing some of the folks doing all the talking about tag and report..

     info here is all from the meeting video link contained in the initial post. Not concerned with FWC at this point except for FWC staff assigned to dmtag and the non-voting members regularly using their membership status at the podium in attempts to gain non existent authority or creating an illusion of higher status than joelunchbucket who couldn't attend or follow the stage show. Dmtag is also a very below the radar screen entity IMO and the fact one will have difficulty learning of their work. Even if you want access to the FWC dmtagweb site that few members have the courage to discuss ideas on you must be approved to get the password to access it. In the past Perran Ross was the contact for web access to it's dealings. I had access in the past but quit using it because the discussions posted to it were very guarded IMHO. Even at the FWC meeting I brought up in my initial post here, one member mentioned being "chapter 119'd or sunshined twice for problems someone had with them discussing unspecified issues in the past.
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 792 Officer
    edited June 23 #5
    I have no problem with reporting deer or collecting data but the commission has no standing for pushing any of this when they have science and data for bears and bears cannot be hunted. Imo, every hunter should be against the Fwc collecting any data on any species until the data collected species are allowed to be hunted. At this point the Fwc collecting data is just them showing their intentions of shutting down a species to harvest. 

    Is there any species in Florida that the Fwc has gained extensive population data on and been opened to harvest?  Not snook after the freezes as the data showed harvestable populations, not bears, not Goliath groupers, green turtles? Lol
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    The SharePoint that Perran set up for DMTAG hasn't been used in a loooong time, at least by anyone that I'm aware of. DMTAG isn't a sunshine group. Not because anything is top secret but because it is an assistance group rather than an advisory group and being able to communicate with other people from the group outside of official meetings was something that was thought to be more valuable than the limitations that come with being sunshined.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 23 #7
    The day GFC changed to FWC totalitarian control began it's slow, quiet and stealthful march into the outdoor sportsmen's world and has conned many into unknowingly submitting to their will without feeling a thing anywhere. Many believe they have to wrap themselves in an ever increasing green conservationist cloak of scientific and data driven management when in reality the data is what brings more onerous and restrictive cumbersome regulatory control just short of being unbearable so as to maintain FWC's revenue stream.  The incremental loss of freedoms in woods activities can foster a good understanding of the frog in a pot of boiling water story/joke.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    Opinions vary. Thanks for sharing yours.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,364 Officer
    I was the one who mentioned turkey and snapper.  I have supported a tag/report system for years. I personally see value in additional data.  Last time this topic came up was just as I was becoming active in the process. It failed to move forward. In recent years the commissioners had mentioned tagging snapper as a way to gain additional access to the resource. Not my desire or dog in fight but was a crack in the door to one for deer / turkey. 

    Keep in mind that those who do not get involved have to deal with the desires of others being in the front row. 

    Having currently exempt people register is a good thing. It allows us to qualify how many people are actively hunting and fishing. Could be no cost. A minimal cost can get fl additional fed money.  It can also help to get the reportable numbers up to combat the people who like to make us look like such a minority compared to non hunters. 

    Hope to see all the interested people at the next commission meeting.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 23 #10
    As I stated although I can't recollect where I saw it data I recently saw in an official looking report (possibly USFWS on declining hunter numbers) was very specific that many/most hunters age out of this sport at 65-70. Kind of bothered me that the bowhunting guy at 1-27-00 claimed that all the babyboomers are still out there hunting - the stats I saw do not support that claim at all. I've been exempt for a while and don't want to have to deal with FWC's paperwork in any way - life is so much better not having to. Sorry but after 50 years of interactions, NPS, USFWS and FWC I have no faith in hunting improving due to anything where I hunt and of the opinion FWC and other agencies have a one way ratchet upping restrictions as data and PR/public opinion can be used any way commissioners want when they spin it to justify any actions they take. That principle was on open display when commissioner Sole (former FDEP head) responded at 1-04-10 on the video to the 2 spearfishermen that spoke before him. Staff data means nothing many times to commissioners.

    It was also on display years ago when commissioner Wright spun his yarn about flying by the seat of their pants to justify keeping snook closed in SW Fla for an extra Year when staff's science and data proved it could be opened immediately.

    Then there was the turkey ammo Restriction rule promoted and passed for public land hunters only due to a turkey hunting fatality on PRIVATE land. Again FWC staff's 10 page study over a 20 or 30 year period found NO inordinate safety issues with any ammo used to hunt turkeys - data ignored again by commissioners.

    A list like this could go on and on.

    Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the tag and report and the annual limit Trojan Horse that will be used to push the issues.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    Its also sad to see a commissioner instituting his personal feelings about spear fishing and implementing more restrictions on his own accord! 
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    Which also proves once again science based decisions do not happen at FWC
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    Keep in mind that those who do not get involved have to deal with the desires of others being in the front row.

    You should respect the fact previously in previous yrs well respected people dropped off from DMTAG for various reasons.. well before you took up a chair at a meeting.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,364 Officer
    Keep in mind that those who do not get involved have to deal with the desires of others being in the front row.

    You should respect the fact previously in previous yrs well respected people dropped off from DMTAG for various reasons.. well before you took up a chair at a meeting.
    I am not a member of DMTAG.  I do realize some used to be more active than they are at the moment.  I personally would like more people to be active even if their opinions and mine do not agree.  Right now it is just a few active people who are doing most of the face time.  It takes the most strength to persist when you are the lone voice trying to stand in the way of BS.  The system beats you down without a doubt.  Without others at the table from years past the past is moving quicker in that direction.  

    I remember 1" bucks and then 5" bucks.  Now needing much more.  I have no problem with people wanting to just put meat in the freezer.  I rather see less deer and be able to see a legal deer on a regular basis than to see 50 i can not harvest.  
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 1,950 Captain
    The Tag and Report System is not complex....You make your own tag...just a "scrap of paper" if you wish...the Tag must be attached to the deer before the deer is moved....when immediately possible, same day usually, you call a FWC number  and record sex, points, date, and location (probably DMU). That's it.

    Why do we need this....simple...politics and a couple of large landowners stopped the initial system several years ago.....near an election...just as politics stopped the bear hunt....Scott did not want any hullabaloo this coming election.  Otherwise a system would be in place....The STAFF was told in no uncertain terms NOT to even mention "tag and report" for strictly political reasons.  They obey their bosses.  But, the current "survey" system can never be as accurate and allow extrapolation to the best numbers a true understanding of the deer herd in the various habitats in Florida.  

    The better the data, the more generous the regulations will be...a biologist sets his recommendations based on the level of confidence in the data collected.....a survey simply is too full of holes.

    If the system is in place, all deer would have to be "tagged" and reported.  Some of the larger landowners are on specific programs with either FWC or hired biologists recording very specific data.....The reports of the professional biologists will be accepted as "tag and report" on the specific property....all other Private Land is treated exactly the same as Public....Tag on kill, report promptly.

    As far as an annual quota.  We have an idea that only a few hunters are successful beyond even getting the first deer....and the number of hunters who would be effected by an annual limit is low.  However, the deer belong to all the citizens...hunters...in Florida and a fair distribution of "take" should be a part of regulations.   I suggest a  very generous number, which can be adjusted up or down as the Tag and Report system data matures....3 bucks, 2 does.

    Again, hunting is under tremendous pressure from multiple directions...and "finding a place to hunt' continues to be the cause of loss of hunters...and license sales...as revenue from hunters drops at the FWC, so will the attention to the hunting program....just a fact of life.  We need to get the Florida Deer Management up to date with proven programs.

    Regarding funding...we need to have an Exempt (over 65) License at a nominal fee....$10...$5... so we can capture more of the Federal Funds based on number of licensed hunters....I would be glad to pay!
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    The better the data, the more generous the regulations will be..... just like the bear hunt right!
    Or, the new spearfihing reg's right?

    Cmon Newton the writing is on the wall. Until we get a GFC - BOHICA
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    Nice to see folks - in the know - talking about this now - better late than never or on the day of the vote.

    Agreed Newton - "tag and report" is  not a complex system - at least not until it begins to grow with mission creep.

    As you've said Newton 'you enjoy the Shakspearian" drama of the bureaucratic processes" - this issue should be very enjoyable for you.

    Disagree that politics/Scott stopped the bear hunt - well organized and committed anti's stopped bear hunt not Scott. Anti's advocacy to stop the bear hunt forced Scott to do what he did the same as 20 years before that when the last to bear hunt areas were closed due to anti's forcing political pressure on GFC at that time. The true not fake origin of both closures and ban was anti-hunt advocates.

    Go ahead and make a vindictive uninformed vote against Scott for the senate seat  and watch someone like Gwen Graham swoop in and help us wherever she can.

    Your the dmtag expert  on this so please expound on the penalties being considered by staff and y'all at dmtag for non-compliance. Although you blame large landowners for this bad ideas last failure. Last time 'round on this if convicted of a violation (1st degree misdemeanor) of failure to "tag and report" one would have a lifelong criminal offense conviction on their record following them for the rest of their life that would have to be announced on all job applications in their future.  I pity anyone that would support that notion of wrecking someone's life for failing to fill out a form and make a call within the dmtag/FWC specified time limits.

    As usual the DEVIL is in the details and the - exact legal specification of the offense - which dictates the penalty as per Florida Statutes -  if one fails for some reason to comply with the "tag and report" rule is a WHOPPING big issue - possibly larger than the rule itself. Any specification of offense higher than a { non-criminal infraction} I would hope is UNacceptable to all. I can see some saying if the penalty isn't stiff nobody will comply making the rule useless. That attitude would parallel commissioner Sole's attitude of assuming spearfishermen as all guilty rather than innocent until proven. That bad attitude is proof of one having forgotten what America and Freedom is about.

    Assume the rule is adopted - so what if a few don't comply and get caught and some don't get caught. I can't believe that those few terrible scary villains actions who don't get caught could skew any resulting data to a high degree unless FWC staff and dmtag assume as commissioner Sole does that the majority of us sportsmen and sportswomen are no good rule breakers. So OK prosecute them and slap their wrists and be done with it instead of being a vindictive autocrats and trying to ruin a persons future life with a criminal conviction.

    Regarding this comment Newton - "We have an idea that only a few hunters are successful beyond even getting the first deer....and the number of hunters who would be effected by an annual limit is low.  However, the deer belong to all the citizens...hunters...in Florida and a fair distribution of "take" should be a part of regulations"  All this science and data speak and now it's about "We have an idea..." - doesn't look like science or data driven to me. So now we should support screwing up experienced knowledgeable hunter's satisfaction levels who have spent possible decades developing their and honing their hunting skills by attempting to develop a socialist rule system to help weekend warriors that never will become an expert hunter. Maybe consider doing what German customer of mine told me they do in Germany - have a village hunter be the only person to hunt an area (e.g. dmu) - he/she or maybe an AI robot goes out and hunts and kills a bunch of deer - then he/she/bot brings the meat to a city council meeting in the dmu and equitably and fairly distributes it to all citizens since those that aren't desirous to hunt should share the bounty also - as U said in your post Newton - " ....the deer belong to all the citizens....

    The word we seems to be used often which is of some concern. Sometimes folks start to feel like their part of the agency rather than specifically focusing on the concerns of those they claim to represent or just take personal ownership of an idea and can't let loose of it no matter what since they have a large investment of time and energy in pushing a concept even if it's a bad or unnecessary idea - I don't fault one for suffering from this aspect of human nature but it still sucks when it causes bad decisions to be made.

    When discussing why hunting is failing in Florida let's not forget the fact as is reported on other threads of this forum that many in Fla only hunt their preferred public lands once every 3-5 years if they are lucky. I was laughed at in a truck with and 2 or 3 other Everglades Coordinating Council  delegates on the way to a meeting in Alachua to protect dog hunters from PETA who eventually had their fox hunts banned. What I said was that I mainly support Freedom, Flexibility and Convenience (FFC) for hunters  and I still say it. Before someone says it - No I'm not advocating NO rules just that we are already seriously over regulated and don't need anymore unnecessary rules to deal with. The continual loss of those FFC values I personally cherish will continue to erode the hunting experience in Florida and cause hunters to quit hunting, hunt another state or get a lease in Fla and skip buying a license altogether.

    As far as taxing folks over 65 that are currently exempt from FWC taxes and assuming that would bring in much funding - I cannot agree since I see very few oldsters like you and I out in the woods very often. Not that I want to see or support kids to be taxed but they would be the source for a more predictable long lived revenue stream. The mention of nominal is great but maybe 50 cents would be more reasonable since the motive touted by the speakers is to enable FWC to pick up 8 dollars a head per young and old hunter.

    This  is a good discussion - hope many follow it throughout the process - should be interesting.





  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    The creation of a criminal record for someone who would fail to tag and report a deer was discussed at length when T&R was being considered and was something that was a concern to most if not all. I don't recal the details right off but I think it would have only become criminal with habitual offenders. Not many concerns were expressed with what was proposed. The individual who made an honest mistake might receive a warning or a ticket but it wouldn't rise to the level of a criminal offense. 

    I'm still not aware of staff giving T&R any current consideration. If they aren't, then none of this matters anyway.
  • swampwalkerswampwalker Posts: 1,196 Officer
    As a member of the DMTAG, I constantly solicit information from hunters -young & old concerning deer hunting in general and on specific management areas (Richloam, Avon Park BR, Citrus & Green Swamp).I also remind myself not to have a personal agenda, but to represent public lands hunters as a whole. My goal is to provide honest reasonable information to the process and to respectfully work with FWC & the DMTAG within the framework of being a member to improve Florida deer hunting. I'm an optimist and believe Florida is a great state to hunt in. There needs to be improvement- that's why I continue to be part of the process and have been since DMTAG began. I embrace the process & seek compromise if possible. On this forum-I mostly read (listen) and do chime in occasionally. The only thing of major concern on a forum is the overwhelming tasks of policing fact from heresay. Newton is a friend & member of DMTAG, yet his tag discussion is his. DMTAG has pretty much left that proposal officially off the radar. Will it come up again one day, most likely yes especially since we have a new commission. Again it has not been on our agenda, except when a visitor or new member inquires as to why we don't have Tag/report. If it gets resurrected- it will be more official than through a forum post. I gain quite a bit of general info, reading these posts and talking hunting with folks. I also have learned folks do have hot buttons and special interest. BTW-I hunt many species, yet favor deer & turkey. Been hunting for 55+years in this state - so the passion and desire runs deep. Don't hesitate to let me know your public land ideas and with a PM, I'll give you my cell so we can chat. Be safe!
    The original - "Renaissance Redneck"
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    Eureka and Happy Days - I found the report I referred to in post #10 here mentioning the 65 age out of hunters - apparently it was a Nat'l Public Radio article - will try to attach a teaser clip from it to garner interest to view it - here's a link - https://www.npr.org/2018/03/20/593001800/decline-in-hunters-threatens-how-u-s-pays-for-conservation  Yes it focuses on a northern state which means to me that the age out could be earlier in Florida due to heat, humidity, access hurdles due to overregulation (no ORV access) etc. etc.

  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    The creation of a criminal record for someone who would fail to tag and report a deer was discussed at length when T&R was being considered and was something that was a concern to most if not all. I don't recal the details right off but I think it would have only become criminal with habitual offenders. Not many concerns were expressed with what was proposed. The individual who made an honest mistake might receive a warning or a ticket but it wouldn't rise to the level of a criminal offense. 

    I'm still not aware of staff giving T&R any current consideration. If they aren't, then none of this matters anyway.


    Agreed that criminal record was discussed and staff who originated the idea was offended and not happy we called them on it down in So Fla and seriously resisted our concerns over it. In fact during a power point staff blew by the slide mentioning the offense level specification - I interrupted to find out what the technical offense level meant - best of my recollection was maximum penalty of 6 months jail time and 5000 or 500 dollar fine not sure on fine but positive on jail time. Even if an offender was habitual it shouldn't be criminal life wrecking - due to so very few that would be so inclined it wouldn't jeopardize the data quality IMHO - so why wreck a person's life. Sad to hear not many concerns over such a penalty being imposed. Funny how some ex rule breakers in their youth become subject to what I refer to as the "reformed **** syndrome" when they grow up and fly right.

    As per Newton's post above #15 here nobody will hear staff mention it publicly staff since they have been silenced on this by Gov Scott thru FWC upper management. An excerpt from post 15 - ".......Scott did not want any hullabaloo this coming election.  Otherwise a system would be in place....The STAFF was told in no uncertain terms NOT to even mention "tag and report" for strictly political reasons.  They obey their bosses.  " Kudos and Thanks to Newton for his candor here.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    If I remember correctly, even some of your associates were okay with what staff ultimately proposed for an infraction schedule. May have just been their personal veiwpoint rather than the stance of the stakeholders they represented. I think the proposal ended up being tamed down from what you refrenced.

    I don't believe that Scott had anything to do with T&R falling by the wayside. There was political pressure for staff to move in a different direction but it didn't come from the governor's office.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 23 #23
    I'm with U swampwalker because that's what I am mainly a "swamp walker" down in Big Cypress for over 50 years. It's great that you are opened minded and seek info from folks but one drawback to that is younger and folks new to Florida very well may not have any historical context as to how we got where we are at today regarding our being overregulated to a totalitarian degree that is in no way supported by data or science - too many examples of the commission's total disregard of science/data for me to trust them much. Seeking compromise is a slippery slope to another term called "consensus". Trained meeting facilitators (e.g. dmtag meeting) which I believe FWC uses have IMO been trained expertly and so well in the art of manipulation of a group that they could almost guide a group of folks who don't understand their methods to walk off a cliff (tongue in cheek) what I mean is that I do believe they are very very very expert at what they do. Facilitators use insidious almost invisible techniques unless one has a trained eye to spot them and defend whoever they represent against a facilitators methods. One thing they are good at is turning an entire group against one or two people not in agreement with others in the group by applying their social science and psychological training when required.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 24 #24
    No  recollection of what my ECC associates conveyed either personally or formally back then 6 years ago except that I did not believe it could improve any of our regional situations - so why support an extra bureaucratic FWC burden being forced upon private citizens (hunters in the case of T&R) with a criminal record for skipping it.

    Agree Scott may not have been involved 6 years ago - my recollection is that private land owners were largely responsible for killing T&R - sometimes hard to tell what specific reason drives final decisions in government.

    Although I may disagree with Newton sometimes (e.g. T&R ;)) and that's OK because we're both gentlemen but he is a very credible source IMHO for what he wrote here in his post # 15 - excerpted as follows here - "....Scott did not want any hullabaloo this coming election.  Otherwise a system would be in place....The STAFF was told in no uncertain terms NOT to even mention "tag and report" for strictly political reasons.  They obey their bosses. "  One would be stretching interpretation of this clip from post 15 not to be referring to the upcoming unknown process to add annual deer limits to FWC rules as the Trojan Horse so as to set up the planned forcing of the T&R rule on hunters.

    Another example of this type elected official intimidation of FWC was back at the original Hunting Summit in Orlando quite a few years ago regarding similar pressure from elected officials applied to FWC or maybe GFC that got bear hunting banned from 2 remaining areas open at the time was admitted by Vic Heller directly to Jamie Adams and a great older gentleman Raymond Hamlin Jr. Legislators said they would pull their funding if bear hunts weren't stopped - again as usual "so much for data". Mr Hamlin had suspected and claimed that but was very appreciative of the admission by FWCs exec director that evening. Sadly Mr Hamlin died not too long after the meeting. Mr Hamlin, Jamie and and I saw eye to eye on many issues and I'm proud to have an autographed copy of Mr Hamlin's book titled "A Wake Up Call to Florida's Hunters and Fishermen" he sent me after the meeting.

  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    Franks on point w all of this... too bad the few who keep bringing it up dont get the signs... Newtons personal agenda is a tag n report system. Get over it Newton..push FWC to making sound science based decisions like deer surveys in each DMU real surveys not some cockamamie phone survey

    Chuck just wants to be paid commercially for hunting so he has a personal agenda.

    Dont know much about the rest of the tag team but before you make decisions run them by clubs like ECC and FSCA before you babble them to FWC.

    Just refer to the commissioner who personally made a decision to ban spearfishing in federal waters and caved into the feds with no scientific data... and keep in mind them cougars need to have a constant food source hence all these restriction we are now getting.... BOHICA 
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    Politics may may not be wanted in the FWC's wildlife management decisions but it's an unavoidable reality that it sometimes trumps science. As regrettable as that is, it's no different anywhere else in this country. Despite that, the N American Model of wildlife management is still the best model.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 24 #27
    FWC doesn't agree with the N American being the best thing since sliced bread as per one past FWC meeting.

    Just FWC meeting history but a few years ago Marlin Perkin's assistant from his Mutual of Omaha show Jim Fowler visited and FWC meeting to give a presentation.He was graciously welcomed and praised for all he had done for conservation. This is back during Corbett, Jablonski and Baretto's time and Corbett told the story of his guide or him killing an attacking wolf on a recent hunt at this meeting.

    Anyway Jim Fowler's presentation centered on how the North American Model was obsolete in today's world we are living in and needs to be rethought entirely. Another expert also gave a presentation agreeing with Fowler's thoughts. Nick and all commissioners gave comments in agreement with the speakers and praised them very highly for the info they contributed to the meeting.. The impetus for the presentations may have been rising human/wildlife conflicts and the need for hunting (e.g. bear) to be used as a valuable tool to manage the out of control dangerous animals in close proximity to humans.

    Well the bear hunt put the Alinski Principle into high gear putting an end to relying upon data based management as a legitimate justification make a decision on a particular management issue whenever an outside entity or person can raise enough hell (e.g. litigation, bad PR, obstructing processes,, demonstrations, eettcc.)   - so why support that when someone or group can flip the science upside down at a whim.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,558 Admiral
    OHICA
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,684 Captain
    Not sure you would find many or even any FWC staff who would agree with your opinion on their views regarding the N American Model. 
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    Apparently you were not at that meeting - maybe if I'm feeling energetic I'll try and hunt it down so you can see my history recollection was not fake. Possibly (it has been years since the meeting) their response wasn't a total rejection but as I said an acknowledgement it had to be modified to account for wildlife conflicts with people if for no other reason than the costs to agencies to deal with bad animals.
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 967 Officer
    edited June 24 #31
    Can't believe it - one google search for Jim Fowler at FWC meeting - and here it is  Apr 15, 2014 FWC meeting in Havana, Fla - go here   http://myfwc.com/about/commission/commission-meetings/2014/april/15/agenda/   and check agenda item 2A, and 2B from there you sound experienced enough to get video access from FWC - if you do please share the link to it here  so I and others can see how mistaken I was. Hell to be human. OBTW 2A is Mr Jim Sterba an author of a wildlife conflict book - 2B is Mr Jim Fowler the zoologists speech - then there should be commissioner comments praising them. Have a good watch.


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