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gladesman
Posts: 1,362 Officer
Bad Ideas Never Die in Florida
gladesman
Posts: 1,362 Officer
Watched some of the hunting related aspects of the June 19 & 20,
2018 meetings. Interesting to hear of an annual limit for deer being
brought up again along with speakers some of whom were dmtag members
express their full support for bringing the deer dmtag "tag and report"
(e.g. fill out a form b4 gutting a deer then calling the report in to
FWC b4 gutting the deer.) One hunter even said he would like to see it it
for turkeys and snapper.
OBTW last time this was attempted I do believe FWC and dmtag supported convicted violators would end up with a high misdemeanor conviction which means you have a Permanent Criminal record to ruin your job applications/career forever for not filling out a piece of scrap paper and making a call (so if this flies cell phones are mandatory and that they have a signal no matter where U are) .
Looks like a strategy and talking points to push it have been developed already - maybe during last months dmtag meeting one dmtag member mentioned where a presentation was given relative to the "tag and report" concept. IMHO the Trojan Horse to push it will be the supposed need for an annual limit on deer with science/data to properly manage a annual deer limit. Next dmtag and staff et al try to convince/browbeat everyone that this is needed - Then after that task is accomplished the pushers of this will say that we must know how many deer are killed to set the "annual limit" otherwise it is "useless" (dmtag member 6-19-2018) and then we're off to the races on this "tag and report" issue again. Another old stale talking point will be that many other states do this - so Why not Florida.
Of course this will probably only impact public land folks because private land folks didn't stand for it 6 years ago and won't stand for it this time and are much more savvy/powerful apparently then public land folks.
Speakers I witnessed promoting an annual limit and "tag and report" spoke during public comments 6-19-2018 Part 2 of this FWC meeting on the Florida Channel - https://thefloridachannel.org/videos/6-19-18-florida-fish-wildlife-conservation-commission-part-2/ Speakers spoke at the following time stamps of the video 16 min-15 sec, 20 min- 20sec, 28 min-00 sec, 1 hr-27 min - 00 sec. Surprising that none of these "tag and report supportive" speakers well known on this forum haven't posted anything here yet about this issue that was quite controversial in the past - considering they have been discussing it at their last dmtag meeting and plan to at next Thursdays meeting as mentioned by at least one speaker at this FWC meeting.
OBTW last time this was attempted I do believe FWC and dmtag supported convicted violators would end up with a high misdemeanor conviction which means you have a Permanent Criminal record to ruin your job applications/career forever for not filling out a piece of scrap paper and making a call (so if this flies cell phones are mandatory and that they have a signal no matter where U are) .
Looks like a strategy and talking points to push it have been developed already - maybe during last months dmtag meeting one dmtag member mentioned where a presentation was given relative to the "tag and report" concept. IMHO the Trojan Horse to push it will be the supposed need for an annual limit on deer with science/data to properly manage a annual deer limit. Next dmtag and staff et al try to convince/browbeat everyone that this is needed - Then after that task is accomplished the pushers of this will say that we must know how many deer are killed to set the "annual limit" otherwise it is "useless" (dmtag member 6-19-2018) and then we're off to the races on this "tag and report" issue again. Another old stale talking point will be that many other states do this - so Why not Florida.
Of course this will probably only impact public land folks because private land folks didn't stand for it 6 years ago and won't stand for it this time and are much more savvy/powerful apparently then public land folks.
Speakers I witnessed promoting an annual limit and "tag and report" spoke during public comments 6-19-2018 Part 2 of this FWC meeting on the Florida Channel - https://thefloridachannel.org/videos/6-19-18-florida-fish-wildlife-conservation-commission-part-2/ Speakers spoke at the following time stamps of the video 16 min-15 sec, 20 min- 20sec, 28 min-00 sec, 1 hr-27 min - 00 sec. Surprising that none of these "tag and report supportive" speakers well known on this forum haven't posted anything here yet about this issue that was quite controversial in the past - considering they have been discussing it at their last dmtag meeting and plan to at next Thursdays meeting as mentioned by at least one speaker at this FWC meeting.
Replies
We should vote on who we should allow on DMTAG and make sure they keep the public informed.
Bgeorge is here all the time, so is Newton
Chuck couldnt handle the pressure so he stopped posting here but he's more concerned how it can benefit him and not us.
Lots of DMTAG members quit the group because it never made sense and that should tell FWC and the rest of us something.
Have you verified with staff that they are reconsidering a tag and report option or is that just what you have concluded from what you are hearing?
Walker Dog and all others - Please consider looking at the suggested time stamps to understand where I'm coming from. Truly hoping the video link works better for others than it did for me.
Are there other links to FWC meetings besides florida channel?
Below is what I have concluded from watching and listening to the video link supplied above and past involvement with the tag and report idea years ago and knowing some of the folks doing all the talking about tag and report..
info here is all from the meeting video link contained in the initial post. Not concerned with FWC at this point except for FWC staff assigned to dmtag and the non-voting members regularly using their membership status at the podium in attempts to gain non existent authority or creating an illusion of higher status than joelunchbucket who couldn't attend or follow the stage show. Dmtag is also a very below the radar screen entity IMO and the fact one will have difficulty learning of their work. Even if you want access to the FWC dmtagweb site that few members have the courage to discuss ideas on you must be approved to get the password to access it. In the past Perran Ross was the contact for web access to it's dealings. I had access in the past but quit using it because the discussions posted to it were very guarded IMHO. Even at the FWC meeting I brought up in my initial post here, one member mentioned being "chapter 119'd or sunshined twice for problems someone had with them discussing unspecified issues in the past.
Is there any species in Florida that the Fwc has gained extensive population data on and been opened to harvest? Not snook after the freezes as the data showed harvestable populations, not bears, not Goliath groupers, green turtles? Lol
Keep in mind that those who do not get involved have to deal with the desires of others being in the front row.
Having currently exempt people register is a good thing. It allows us to qualify how many people are actively hunting and fishing. Could be no cost. A minimal cost can get fl additional fed money. It can also help to get the reportable numbers up to combat the people who like to make us look like such a minority compared to non hunters.
Hope to see all the interested people at the next commission meeting.
It was also on display years ago when commissioner Wright spun his yarn about flying by the seat of their pants to justify keeping snook closed in SW Fla for an extra Year when staff's science and data proved it could be opened immediately.
Then there was the turkey ammo Restriction rule promoted and passed for public land hunters only due to a turkey hunting fatality on PRIVATE land. Again FWC staff's 10 page study over a 20 or 30 year period found NO inordinate safety issues with any ammo used to hunt turkeys - data ignored again by commissioners.
A list like this could go on and on.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the tag and report and the annual limit Trojan Horse that will be used to push the issues.
You should respect the fact previously in previous yrs well respected people dropped off from DMTAG for various reasons.. well before you took up a chair at a meeting.
I remember 1" bucks and then 5" bucks. Now needing much more. I have no problem with people wanting to just put meat in the freezer. I rather see less deer and be able to see a legal deer on a regular basis than to see 50 i can not harvest.
Why do we need this....simple...politics and a couple of large landowners stopped the initial system several years ago.....near an election...just as politics stopped the bear hunt....Scott did not want any hullabaloo this coming election. Otherwise a system would be in place....The STAFF was told in no uncertain terms NOT to even mention "tag and report" for strictly political reasons. They obey their bosses. But, the current "survey" system can never be as accurate and allow extrapolation to the best numbers a true understanding of the deer herd in the various habitats in Florida.
The better the data, the more generous the regulations will be...a biologist sets his recommendations based on the level of confidence in the data collected.....a survey simply is too full of holes.
If the system is in place, all deer would have to be "tagged" and reported. Some of the larger landowners are on specific programs with either FWC or hired biologists recording very specific data.....The reports of the professional biologists will be accepted as "tag and report" on the specific property....all other Private Land is treated exactly the same as Public....Tag on kill, report promptly.
As far as an annual quota. We have an idea that only a few hunters are successful beyond even getting the first deer....and the number of hunters who would be effected by an annual limit is low. However, the deer belong to all the citizens...hunters...in Florida and a fair distribution of "take" should be a part of regulations. I suggest a very generous number, which can be adjusted up or down as the Tag and Report system data matures....3 bucks, 2 does.
Again, hunting is under tremendous pressure from multiple directions...and "finding a place to hunt' continues to be the cause of loss of hunters...and license sales...as revenue from hunters drops at the FWC, so will the attention to the hunting program....just a fact of life. We need to get the Florida Deer Management up to date with proven programs.
Regarding funding...we need to have an Exempt (over 65) License at a nominal fee....$10...$5... so we can capture more of the Federal Funds based on number of licensed hunters....I would be glad to pay!
Or, the new spearfihing reg's right?
Cmon Newton the writing is on the wall. Until we get a GFC - BOHICA
Agreed Newton - "tag and report" is not a complex system - at least not until it begins to grow with mission creep.
As you've said Newton 'you enjoy the Shakspearian" drama of the bureaucratic processes" - this issue should be very enjoyable for you.
Disagree that politics/Scott stopped the bear hunt - well organized and committed anti's stopped bear hunt not Scott. Anti's advocacy to stop the bear hunt forced Scott to do what he did the same as 20 years before that when the last to bear hunt areas were closed due to anti's forcing political pressure on GFC at that time. The true not fake origin of both closures and ban was anti-hunt advocates.
Go ahead and make a vindictive uninformed vote against Scott for the senate seat and watch someone like Gwen Graham swoop in and help us wherever she can.
Your the dmtag expert on this so please expound on the penalties being considered by staff and y'all at dmtag for non-compliance. Although you blame large landowners for this bad ideas last failure. Last time 'round on this if convicted of a violation (1st degree misdemeanor) of failure to "tag and report" one would have a lifelong criminal offense conviction on their record following them for the rest of their life that would have to be announced on all job applications in their future. I pity anyone that would support that notion of wrecking someone's life for failing to fill out a form and make a call within the dmtag/FWC specified time limits.
As usual the DEVIL is in the details and the - exact legal specification of the offense - which dictates the penalty as per Florida Statutes - if one fails for some reason to comply with the "tag and report" rule is a WHOPPING big issue - possibly larger than the rule itself. Any specification of offense higher than a { non-criminal infraction} I would hope is UNacceptable to all. I can see some saying if the penalty isn't stiff nobody will comply making the rule useless. That attitude would parallel commissioner Sole's attitude of assuming spearfishermen as all guilty rather than innocent until proven. That bad attitude is proof of one having forgotten what America and Freedom is about.
Assume the rule is adopted - so what if a few don't comply and get caught and some don't get caught. I can't believe that those few terrible scary villains actions who don't get caught could skew any resulting data to a high degree unless FWC staff and dmtag assume as commissioner Sole does that the majority of us sportsmen and sportswomen are no good rule breakers. So OK prosecute them and slap their wrists and be done with it instead of being a vindictive autocrats and trying to ruin a persons future life with a criminal conviction.
Regarding this comment Newton - "We have an idea that only a few hunters are successful beyond even getting the first deer....and the number of hunters who would be effected by an annual limit is low. However, the deer belong to all the citizens...hunters...in Florida and a fair distribution of "take" should be a part of regulations" All this science and data speak and now it's about "We have an idea..." - doesn't look like science or data driven to me. So now we should support screwing up experienced knowledgeable hunter's satisfaction levels who have spent possible decades developing their and honing their hunting skills by attempting to develop a socialist rule system to help weekend warriors that never will become an expert hunter. Maybe consider doing what German customer of mine told me they do in Germany - have a village hunter be the only person to hunt an area (e.g. dmu) - he/she or maybe an AI robot goes out and hunts and kills a bunch of deer - then he/she/bot brings the meat to a city council meeting in the dmu and equitably and fairly distributes it to all citizens since those that aren't desirous to hunt should share the bounty also - as U said in your post Newton - " ....the deer belong to all the citizens....
The word we seems to be used often which is of some concern. Sometimes folks start to feel like their part of the agency rather than specifically focusing on the concerns of those they claim to represent or just take personal ownership of an idea and can't let loose of it no matter what since they have a large investment of time and energy in pushing a concept even if it's a bad or unnecessary idea - I don't fault one for suffering from this aspect of human nature but it still sucks when it causes bad decisions to be made.
When discussing why hunting is failing in Florida let's not forget the fact as is reported on other threads of this forum that many in Fla only hunt their preferred public lands once every 3-5 years if they are lucky. I was laughed at in a truck with and 2 or 3 other Everglades Coordinating Council delegates on the way to a meeting in Alachua to protect dog hunters from PETA who eventually had their fox hunts banned. What I said was that I mainly support Freedom, Flexibility and Convenience (FFC) for hunters and I still say it. Before someone says it - No I'm not advocating NO rules just that we are already seriously over regulated and don't need anymore unnecessary rules to deal with. The continual loss of those FFC values I personally cherish will continue to erode the hunting experience in Florida and cause hunters to quit hunting, hunt another state or get a lease in Fla and skip buying a license altogether.
As far as taxing folks over 65 that are currently exempt from FWC taxes and assuming that would bring in much funding - I cannot agree since I see very few oldsters like you and I out in the woods very often. Not that I want to see or support kids to be taxed but they would be the source for a more predictable long lived revenue stream. The mention of nominal is great but maybe 50 cents would be more reasonable since the motive touted by the speakers is to enable FWC to pick up 8 dollars a head per young and old hunter.
This is a good discussion - hope many follow it throughout the process - should be interesting.
I'm still not aware of staff giving T&R any current consideration. If they aren't, then none of this matters anyway.
Agreed that criminal record was discussed and staff who originated the idea was offended and not happy we called them on it down in So Fla and seriously resisted our concerns over it. In fact during a power point staff blew by the slide mentioning the offense level specification - I interrupted to find out what the technical offense level meant - best of my recollection was maximum penalty of 6 months jail time and 5000 or 500 dollar fine not sure on fine but positive on jail time. Even if an offender was habitual it shouldn't be criminal life wrecking - due to so very few that would be so inclined it wouldn't jeopardize the data quality IMHO - so why wreck a person's life. Sad to hear not many concerns over such a penalty being imposed. Funny how some ex rule breakers in their youth become subject to what I refer to as the "reformed **** syndrome" when they grow up and fly right.
As per Newton's post above #15 here nobody will hear staff mention it publicly staff since they have been silenced on this by Gov Scott thru FWC upper management. An excerpt from post 15 - ".......Scott did not want any hullabaloo this coming election. Otherwise a system would be in place....The STAFF was told in no uncertain terms NOT to even mention "tag and report" for strictly political reasons. They obey their bosses. " Kudos and Thanks to Newton for his candor here.
I don't believe that Scott had anything to do with T&R falling by the wayside. There was political pressure for staff to move in a different direction but it didn't come from the governor's office.
Agree Scott may not have been involved 6 years ago - my recollection is that private land owners were largely responsible for killing T&R - sometimes hard to tell what specific reason drives final decisions in government.
Although I may disagree with Newton sometimes (e.g. T&R
Another example of this type elected official intimidation of FWC was back at the original Hunting Summit in Orlando quite a few years ago regarding similar pressure from elected officials applied to FWC or maybe GFC that got bear hunting banned from 2 remaining areas open at the time was admitted by Vic Heller directly to Jamie Adams and a great older gentleman Raymond Hamlin Jr. Legislators said they would pull their funding if bear hunts weren't stopped - again as usual "so much for data". Mr Hamlin had suspected and claimed that but was very appreciative of the admission by FWCs exec director that evening. Sadly Mr Hamlin died not too long after the meeting. Mr Hamlin, Jamie and and I saw eye to eye on many issues and I'm proud to have an autographed copy of Mr Hamlin's book titled "A Wake Up Call to Florida's Hunters and Fishermen" he sent me after the meeting.
Chuck just wants to be paid commercially for hunting so he has a personal agenda.
Dont know much about the rest of the tag team but before you make decisions run them by clubs like ECC and FSCA before you babble them to FWC.
Just refer to the commissioner who personally made a decision to ban spearfishing in federal waters and caved into the feds with no scientific data... and keep in mind them cougars need to have a constant food source hence all these restriction we are now getting.... BOHICA
Just FWC meeting history but a few years ago Marlin Perkin's assistant from his Mutual of Omaha show Jim Fowler visited and FWC meeting to give a presentation.He was graciously welcomed and praised for all he had done for conservation. This is back during Corbett, Jablonski and Baretto's time and Corbett told the story of his guide or him killing an attacking wolf on a recent hunt at this meeting.
Anyway Jim Fowler's presentation centered on how the North American Model was obsolete in today's world we are living in and needs to be rethought entirely. Another expert also gave a presentation agreeing with Fowler's thoughts. Nick and all commissioners gave comments in agreement with the speakers and praised them very highly for the info they contributed to the meeting.. The impetus for the presentations may have been rising human/wildlife conflicts and the need for hunting (e.g. bear) to be used as a valuable tool to manage the out of control dangerous animals in close proximity to humans.
Well the bear hunt put the Alinski Principle into high gear putting an end to relying upon data based management as a legitimate justification make a decision on a particular management issue whenever an outside entity or person can raise enough hell (e.g. litigation, bad PR, obstructing processes,, demonstrations, eettcc.) - so why support that when someone or group can flip the science upside down at a whim.