Florida must stop paying $1 billion a year to 'educate' children in fringe religious nonsense

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Replies

  • BallaCoiPersiciBallaCoiPersici NW Italy (Laveno Mombello)Posts: 4,419 Captain
    The most-read book in American colleges is the communist manifesto....
    sounds to me like the govt-run public school system did a horrible job... 

    I don't care what religion you are; so long as your beliefs don't harm others. 

    Communism and socialist govts killed 100s of millions of people in the 20th century.  And I imagine most of the public school teachers support their ideologies.... That's more dangerous to me than any religion
    I remember at high school (public school) my history book with the exaltation of the Soviet revolution and my teacher almost in tears explaining to us the bravery and the glorious tales of the comrades.

    As I already said the radicalism, religious or ideological, is the only real issue.
    Massimo (former Ballak) - Please, be patient for my English

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  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG
    The most-read book in American colleges is the communist manifesto....

    Says who?
  • mindyabinessmindyabiness Posts: 3,750 Captain
    The most-read book in American colleges is the communist manifesto....

    Says who?
    Maybe he meant..."most red book in American Colleges".
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon... No matter how good you are, the bird is going to crap on the board and strut around like it won anyway. nj
  • mplspugmplspug Lake Mary, FloridaPosts: 6,443 Admiral
    Let's cut the one billion and allow parents to write off private/home shool tuitions.  Problem solved.

    Captain Todd Approves

  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,516 Captain
    The most-read book in American colleges is the communist manifesto....

    Says who?
    It was quoted in an article I read a while back.  Done in a survey of college students.  (I'll try to find article so you can dissect it)

    Not too surprising that many colleges lean extremely left..
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 10,281 AG
    edited June 10 #37
    Hi Mark,

    In America's top universities, the articles I saw had that book just in the top 10.... just behind De Tocquerville's seminal work on Democracy in America.  ;)

    https://qz.com/602956/these-are-the-books-students-at-the-top-us-colleges-are-required-to-read/

    Rank

    Count Text Author
    1 168 Republic Plato
    2 163 Leviathan Hobbes, Thomas
    3 163 The Prince Machiavelli, Niccolò
    4 158 The Clash of Civilizations Huntington, Samuel
    5 145 The Elements of Style Strunk, William
    6 122 Ethics Aristotle
    7 119 The Structure of Scientific Revolutions Kuhn, Thomas
    8 119 Democracy in America Tocqueville, Alexis De
    9 116 The Communist Manifesto Marx, Karl
    10 113 The Politics Aristotle

    To be frank, that list is neither right nor left leaning. 

    In a more broad context (over 1 million classes), Marx's work was ranked #3, behind Plato and Strunk:
    http://explorer.opensyllabusproject.org/

    Perhaps you saw this article...  https://www.marketwatch.com/story/communist-manifesto-among-top-three-books-assigned-in-college-2016-01-27  ...hich says Marx's work is the most assigned by economics professors.

    That said, I think you make a fair point about many liberal arts colleges, or particular departments in larger universities, leaning left.   In fairness, there are a few that lean way right too.

    In my own experience, university professors were careful to not draw conclusions and allowed us to think for ourselves.  It was more an education of healthy skepticism and self-reliance.  However, I did not attend a liberal arts college, and it was 25 years ago, so please take that for what it's worth....just a personal anecdote.

    Take care...Mike



  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 9,559 Admiral
    How long ago were you in college?
    2013 Pathfinder 22 TE , 150 Yamaha,
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 24,001 AG
    Spineyman said:
    cadman said:
    pottydoc said:
    It doesn't bother any of you that not even one of the papers claims is backed up with any kind of evidence? I guess since it's on the internet, it must be true.
    I don't doubt a small minority of private schools could not meet a standardized curriculum requirement. I do believe the opinion piece is opposed to vouchers and over exaggerating the issue. Do you have a problem with setting a standard for all schools to follow? Heck, I bet a few public schools could meet a standard. 
    I have a problem with a Godless Government agency setting standards for a Christian School! Public education is the problem, not the solution. They are dumbing people down fasted than the Titanic sank.
    So you would not care if they came out of a private school and could not read write or do algebra?

    I don't care what a private school does that does not accept government money, You want the money, you have to go by the government rules,. 

    In all reality, a godless government should not give money to religious schools, but if they do, the school needs to meet certain standards to get it. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 24,001 AG
    mplspug said:
    Let's cut the one billion and allow parents to write off private/home shool tuitions.  Problem solved.
    The parents getting the vouchers aren't itemizing their taxes. The other issue is, vouchers are a state program, not a federal program. The states would love your idea, doubt the feds would be happy with losing $7000 per year per student int ax revenue. If it is a billion in Florida it would likely be $50 billion or more nation wide. 


    Mini Mart Magnate

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 24,001 AG
    edited June 10 #41
    The most-read book in American colleges is the communist manifesto....

    Says who?
    It was quoted in an article I read a while back.  Done in a survey of college students.  (I'll try to find article so you can dissect it)

    Not too surprising that many colleges lean extremely left.
    It came from an article similar to this and it wasn't the most read book by far. it is usually listed in the top ten. It also doesn't say why it was assigned. A teacher assigning a text does not mean they are teaching that as a positive. I remember reading it back in the 70s when I was in school as part of the systems tried and failed and the reasons they did not work. it pointed out the positives and negatives of each system. 

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-popular-required-reading-at-the-top-10-us-colleges-2016-1

    The open Syllabus project designed to to scrape data from publicly available sites and reviews about 1 million assigned texts. Dues to limits in the computer algorithms that can't catch one title texts like the Bible or those without specific authors there are 80 million texts not included in the results. It is hardly a reliable source to claim what you are attempting to do. 




    Mini Mart Magnate

  • pottydocpottydoc Posts: 2,186 Captain
    cadman said:
    pottydoc said:
    It doesn't bother any of you that not even one of the papers claims is backed up with any kind of evidence? I guess since it's on the internet, it must be true.
    I don't doubt a small minority of private schools could not meet a standardized curriculum requirement. I do believe the opinion piece is opposed to vouchers and over exaggerating the issue. Do you have a problem with setting a standard for all schools to follow? Heck, I bet a few public schools could meet a standard. 

    As long as the standard fell only with subjects like math, English, science, and such, no I have no problem. And, as long as the schools weren't restricted to teaching any class in the way the government approved. We have a right to believe whatever we want in this Country without government interference. Would the more liberal folks on here be ok with the government forcing a school to,teach that conservative values only, and that any others were wrong? And I agree with you about pulic schools not meeting standards. The article, frankly, is full of crap. Most private schools offer a much better education than public schools simply because they don't have to deal with all the political bs that public schools do, nor do they deal with near the discipline issues. If your kid can't behave, you get to take him elsewhere. While I am sure that some of the stuff they claim is true, the amount is tiny. If it weren't, they would have posted the numbers instead of making completely unsubstantiated claims. 
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 24,001 AG
    pottydoc said:
    cadman said:
    pottydoc said:
    It doesn't bother any of you that not even one of the papers claims is backed up with any kind of evidence? I guess since it's on the internet, it must be true.
    I don't doubt a small minority of private schools could not meet a standardized curriculum requirement. I do believe the opinion piece is opposed to vouchers and over exaggerating the issue. Do you have a problem with setting a standard for all schools to follow? Heck, I bet a few public schools could meet a standard. 

    As long as the standard fell only with subjects like math, English, science, and such, no I have no problem. And, as long as the schools weren't restricted to teaching any class in the way the government approved. We have a right to believe whatever we want in this Country without government interference. Would the more liberal folks on here be ok with the government forcing a school to,teach that conservative values only, and that any others were wrong? And I agree with you about pulic schools not meeting standards. The article, frankly, is full of crap. Most private schools offer a much better education than public schools simply because they don't have to deal with all the political bs that public schools do, nor do they deal with near the discipline issues. If your kid can't behave, you get to take him elsewhere. While I am sure that some of the stuff they claim is true, the amount is tiny. If it weren't, they would have posted the numbers instead of making completely unsubstantiated claims. 
    We agree

    Mini Mart Magnate

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 24,001 AG
  • pottydocpottydoc Posts: 2,186 Captain
    It's too bad government makes teachers do so much more than teach. I have several family members that are public school teachers, most of them for many years. The amount of bs they have to deal with everyday is unbelievable. It's not the fault of our teachers, principal s, and administrators that our education system is so bad, it's the people above them that won't let them do their jobs. In the area they teach in, almost 50% of new teachers quit with in a few years. 
  • SpineymanSpineyman Posts: 7,652 Admiral
    cadman said:
    Spineyman said:
    cadman said:
    pottydoc said:
    It doesn't bother any of you that not even one of the papers claims is backed up with any kind of evidence? I guess since it's on the internet, it must be true.
    I don't doubt a small minority of private schools could not meet a standardized curriculum requirement. I do believe the opinion piece is opposed to vouchers and over exaggerating the issue. Do you have a problem with setting a standard for all schools to follow? Heck, I bet a few public schools could meet a standard. 
    I have a problem with a Godless Government agency setting standards for a Christian School! Public education is the problem, not the solution. They are dumbing people down fasted than the Titanic sank.
    So you would not care if they came out of a private school and could not read write or do algebra?

    I don't care what a private school does that does not accept government money, You want the money, you have to go by the government rules,. 

    In all reality, a godless government should not give money to religious schools, but if they do, the school needs to meet certain standards to get it. 
    In the first place 99% of the private schools have a far better education than any public school, and using your tax dollars that you put in for a voucher is not the same as taking government money. Absolutely no on any government regulations whatsoever. I've been involved in private education and I have also been involved in home schooling and I would put up most any of them against what the public brainwashing system is putting out.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!
    II Chronicles 7:14

    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,516 Captain
    I tried to find the article which states the communist manifesto, and cannot find it....  Obviously, polling data is not obviously 100% accurate. 
    So, I digress on that point. 

    As someone who hangs out with college professors, grad students,and other academics on a ~weekly regular I can say my opinion: (my wife is a phd in academia currently) 

    overwhelmingly, the people I speak to could easily be labeled leftist...  Not that this is a bad thing. (Obviously) 
    I have had some heated discussions with them about gun control, hunting, environmental issues, etc.. (While trying not to embarrass my wife in front of her peers)

    but, my experience back in college; showed me that many of my own teachers taught from a left-wing view.  

    Dialogue is always necassary and welcome.  But, to try and silence right wing views is not that.  Conservative speakers are often not allowed or severely limited on college campuses, and that is a badddd thing. 
  • Gary SGary S Posts: 767 Officer
    I've been involved in private education and I have also been involved in home schooling 

    What is your experience with public school? 
    Is the 99% from some facts or just off the top of your head?
  • GardawgGardawg Posts: 7,384 Admiral
    I tried to find the article which states the communist manifesto, and cannot find it....  Obviously, polling data is not obviously 100% accurate. 
    So, I digress on that point. 

    As someone who hangs out with college professors, grad students,and other academics on a ~weekly regular I can say my opinion: (my wife is a phd in academia currently) 

    overwhelmingly, the people I speak to could easily be labeled leftist...  Not that this is a bad thing. (Obviously) 
    I have had some heated discussions with them about gun control, hunting, environmental issues, etc.. (While trying not to embarrass my wife in front of her peers)

    but, my experience back in college; showed me that many of my own teachers taught from a left-wing view.  

    Dialogue is always necassary and welcome.  But, to try and silence right wing views is not that.  Conservative speakers are often not allowed or severely limited on college campuses, and that is a badddd thing. 


    .


    Educators lean left. 

    Cops lean right.

    There's a reason for that.

    What do you think it is?

    “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

    Heres Tom with the Weather.”
  • mplspugmplspug Lake Mary, FloridaPosts: 6,443 Admiral
    Cops are smarter than educators?

    Captain Todd Approves

  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 8,542 Admiral
    mplspug said:
    Let's cut the one billion and allow parents to write off private/home shool tuitions.  Problem solved.
    Home schooling is the ultimate "blind leading the blind" 

    I've known home schooled families.   There is a socially awkwardness that comes from not having contact with other people on a regular basis.   People don't develop social coping skills because they are never exposed to the real world and it's issues.    

    Not a fan of home schooling.   
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • pottydocpottydoc Posts: 2,186 Captain
    Gary S said:
    I've been involved in private education and I have also been involved in home schooling 

    What is your experience with public school? 
    Is the 99% from some facts or just off the top of your head?
    I'm guessing you are asking me. I went to public school, graduated in 1976. My kids started there, and switched to private when my wife, who was a public high school teacher, got a job at a private school. I have a brother and sister in law with over 35 years each experience in teaching public schools. I have a cousin who teaches, several nieces, and a good number of friends who have each. All teach public school. My experience is listening to them. You know, the people that are involved in it every day. Each one of them does it because that's their life calling. If not, they would have bailed years ago. Most of them teach in one of the worst paid districts in the State. Modt private schools have a much higher graduation rate, and a better percentage of kids going on to further their education after high school. In the case of where my now ex wife teaches, it's in the high 90's. It's doubtful you can find that rate it any public school in the State, except maybe some of the magnet schools. 
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,516 Captain
    Gardawg said:



    Educators lean left. 

    Cops lean right.

    There's a reason for that.

    What do you think it is?

    Our personalities shape what fields of work we want to go into.  Lawyers, cops, public officials, military scientist, etc... There is plenty of research done on this as well, and you can look it up.   

    I personally dislike being in an office all day, and found career field(s) that pay well and Im out ~80% of the time.. 

    I have a few very good friends that are middle school teachers... 1 went to college to get and education degree, while the other floundered around a few jobs until he "settled" at his current teach job.  He is the epitome of "those that can do; those that cant, teach...
  • mplspugmplspug Lake Mary, FloridaPosts: 6,443 Admiral
    mplspug said:
    Let's cut the one billion and allow parents to write off private/home shool tuitions.  Problem solved.
    Home schooling is the ultimate "blind leading the blind" 

    I've known home schooled families.   There is a socially awkwardness that comes from not having contact with other people on a regular basis.   People don't develop social coping skills because they are never exposed to the real world and it's issues.    

    Not a fan of home schooling.   
    That sounds like a parenting issue, not a home schooling issue.  Parents still need to have their kids participate in activities and play with the neighbor kids.  The problem is some who home school do it to be "protective" if no other reason and for that same reason those kids don't socialize with other kids.

    As for my spelling "shool", I am a product of public schools :)

    Captain Todd Approves

  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 8,542 Admiral
    mplspug said:
    mplspug said:
    Let's cut the one billion and allow parents to write off private/home shool tuitions.  Problem solved.
    Home schooling is the ultimate "blind leading the blind" 

    I've known home schooled families.   There is a socially awkwardness that comes from not having contact with other people on a regular basis.   People don't develop social coping skills because they are never exposed to the real world and it's issues.    

    Not a fan of home schooling.   
    That sounds like a parenting issue, not a home schooling issue.  Parents still need to have their kids participate in activities and play with the neighbor kids.  The problem is some who home school do it to be "protective" if no other reason and for that same reason those kids don't socialize with other kids.

    As for my spelling "shool", I am a product of public schools :)
    I went to public shools myself.   I'm sure there are good homeschoolers out there, I mean I guess there have to be.  I just haven't met any, i've met maybe a dozen families who do and the kids were always awkward socially around my kids.   You meet them through girl scouts or boy scouts or sometimes they would try to sign their kids up for cheerleading or football.  

    My first spring as a HC of my son's peewee team, 5th and 6th graders were out there and some homeschool parents show up with their baby, he's tiny, I mean 4'3" tiny and my boy was a fullback that year he was 5' tall and he was right at 130lbs, not huge by 6th grade standards but above average.  Our kids looked like absolute monsters to these parents who were quickly scared off.    
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • mplspugmplspug Lake Mary, FloridaPosts: 6,443 Admiral
    I'd be willing to bet, along the lines with what I was saying, is that home schooling appeals mostly to a certain type of person.  And those parents are probably introverted and socially awkward at best.  So the kid gets hit with the double whammy, where public school at least gives them a chance to break out.

    Captain Todd Approves

  • pottydocpottydoc Posts: 2,186 Captain
    mplspug said:
    mplspug said:
    Let's cut the one billion and allow parents to write off private/home shool tuitions.  Problem solved.
    Home schooling is the ultimate "blind leading the blind" 

    I've known home schooled families.   There is a socially awkwardness that comes from not having contact with other people on a regular basis.   People don't develop social coping skills because they are never exposed to the real world and it's issues.    

    Not a fan of home schooling.   
    That sounds like a parenting issue, not a home schooling issue.  Parents still need to have their kids participate in activities and play with the neighbor kids.  The problem is some who home school do it to be "protective" if no other reason and for that same reason those kids don't socialize with other kids.

    As for my spelling "shool", I am a product of public schools :)
    I went to public shools myself.   I'm sure there are good homeschoolers out there, I mean I guess there have to be.  I just haven't met any, i've met maybe a dozen families who do and the kids were always awkward socially around my kids.   You meet them through girl scouts or boy scouts or sometimes they would try to sign their kids up for cheerleading or football.  

    My first spring as a HC of my son's peewee team, 5th and 6th graders were out there and some homeschool parents show up with their baby, he's tiny, I mean 4'3" tiny and my boy was a fullback that year he was 5' tall and he was right at 130lbs, not huge by 6th grade standards but above average.  Our kids looked like absolute monsters to these parents who were quickly scared off.    
    Soda, do you think the kid would have been bigger if he wasn't home schooled. I coached PAL and AAU travel baseball for eight years. 10 year olds through 17. Two of the best kids I ever had were home schooled. One made it all the way to AA ball with the Braves. The other played college ball with my kid. The  socializing part can be an issue, but that's the parents fault not the kid. I wouldnt have warned it for my kids, but several families I know did it because the public schools in their district were terrible, and they couldn't afford private (no vouchers then). Some thing of the parents did a good job, others not so much. The parents that did well were the ones that would have been involved in the kids lives in school or home schooled. The ones that didn't do a good job wouldn't have been involved in their kids lives much if the had been in regular school. It's like anything else. You get out of it what you put into it.
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,516 Captain
    mplspug said:
    I'd be willing to bet, along the lines with what I was saying, is that home schooling appeals mostly to a certain type of person.  And those parents are probably introverted and socially awkward at best.  So the kid gets hit with the double whammy, where public school at least gives them a chance to break out.
    I know 2 famalies who currently homeschool.. both decided to do this as their local public schools were rated very low.  Both famalies have a stay-at-home mom; which obviously helps with the home schooling, and the have the financial means to do so.  From what I understand; the private schools were a far drive away, and very expensive per year..  

    I also met some home-schooled kids while in college.  I could not tell a personality difference in them compare to public school kids...  

    Like all things; I imagine genetics and social experiences shape a students future.  I remember plenty of "odd" kids while in school..  There are always weird people from all different backgrounds... 
  • pottydocpottydoc Posts: 2,186 Captain
    I have no doubt my ex wife could have done it, since she is a teacher. Our kids would have been socialized well because we lived in a neighborhood full of kids. Your post is pretty much dead on, Mark. 
  • SpineymanSpineyman Posts: 7,652 Admiral
    cadman said:
    Spineyman said:
    cadman said:
    pottydoc said:
    It doesn't bother any of you that not even one of the papers claims is backed up with any kind of evidence? I guess since it's on the internet, it must be true.
    I don't doubt a small minority of private schools could not meet a standardized curriculum requirement. I do believe the opinion piece is opposed to vouchers and over exaggerating the issue. Do you have a problem with setting a standard for all schools to follow? Heck, I bet a few public schools could meet a standard. 
    I have a problem with a Godless Government agency setting standards for a Christian School! Public education is the problem, not the solution. They are dumbing people down fasted than the Titanic sank.
    So you would not care if they came out of a private school and could not read write or do algebra?

    I don't care what a private school does that does not accept government money, You want the money, you have to go by the government rules,. 

    In all reality, a godless government should not give money to religious schools, but if they do, the school needs to meet certain standards to get it. 
    You are a comedian. I know many kids who go to public school and graduate and can barely read and write. They don't have a clue what algebra is . But honestly it would be better for the most part to teach math for daily living, not algebra. I would also bet you that you would be seriously hard pressed to find a private school that can't read or write or anything else for that matter. The news article is nothing more that hyper sensationalism, with an anti-christian bias thrown in for good measure!
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!
    II Chronicles 7:14

    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • AaronCannonAaronCannon Northwest ArkansasPosts: 216 Deckhand
    edited June 12 #61
    Some private schools teach bible theology, and evolution, kids learn both.
    All public schools teach only evolution, kids learn jack****.

    And private schools are the problem?
    Thought we just wanted educated yoots that have options besides crime?
    The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.
    Jeff Cooper
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