Thoughts on the new deer survey

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Replies

  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    I'll explain a little more.
    I hunt right now with 2 boys 100% of my time. They get the trigger time, not me.
    So when I answer NO that I have not killed a deer this year, well there is still plenty in my freezer.
    How can my answer help anyone if it cannot be explained to be accurate. The kids did not get surveyed.

    Another cause of my concern is this. I worked with a guy several years ago, his wife was a biologist and specialized in Snook research. Her opinion seemed to be that NO ONE should ever be allowed to keep one her precious little babies.
    Did she conduct surveys? yep
    Wonder if those were fudged a little?

    I don't think FWC is the boogie man and I appreciate everyones  input here, no matter if I agree or not.
    Worry runs in the family
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    My answers were the same as yours for the same reason. A yes on did I hunt deer In FL last season, but a no for me on the harvest question that would have been a yes had they asked my exempt son. 

    The FWC understands the exempt issue and they are working with the very best natural resource survey company in the country to gather the harvest survey data. Their consultant is fully aware of the issue as well and they are well versed in gathering statistically significant sample sizes that can account for biases in the sample pool so that the information gathered is meaningful.
  • gritsnhuntin1gritsnhuntin1 Posts: 803 Officer
    My answers were the same as yours for the same reason. A yes on did I hunt deer In FL last season, but a no for me on the harvest question that would have been a yes had they asked my exempt son. 

    The FWC understands the exempt issue and they are working with the very best natural resource survey company in the country to gather the harvest survey data. Their consultant is fully aware of the issue as well and they are well versed in gathering statistically significant sample sizes that can account for biases in the sample pool so that the information gathered is meaningful.
    Din't we hear this about the bears also?
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    Different animal literally and figuratively.  Deer are not nearly the political hot potato that bears are. They had good science being staff's recommendation on bear hunting too, but they also had a governor who wants to become a senator.
  • Big MakBig Mak Posts: 1,637 Captain
    There was science and surveys that unequivocally support a bear hunt and FWC caved to pressure.  This is one example. Sure, the "field hands" at the agency aren't nefariously trying to shut down deer hunting, but the truth is, even with accurate data that supports a specific hunting program, it often gets reduced or outright eliminated. This is not arguable. So, having said that, why would anyone be satisfied with a half assed attempt at gaining information that is subjective or incomplete? Yeah yeah, I know... Fwc engineers these variables into their surveys... Hogwash and unscientific.

    Again, I don't mind them trying to collect information but this was a BS survey, just like the last waterfowl survey. Some of you really need to dislodge your noses from the FWC sphincter for just a couple breaths and look at what has happened to public hunting opportunities around here over the past 40 years. It's not just solely the fault of development either, so don't blame the average guy for being a little skeptical of things.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,666 Admiral
    Can anyone explain the reduction in gator permits on certain lakes, when in fact 100% of the eggs are harvested still?
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    What you call halffast isn't really. Just that what they are asking and what you want to say are not the same thing. 
  • gladesmangladesman Posts: 983 Officer
    Seems  like very irate folks who mount well organized media campaigns and don't want anything except to obstruct hunting opportunities whether new or being reinstated are the ones that get the most, ALL the time with FWC. They are not polite or extremely well informed but are very emotional (e.g. PETA anti fox hunt youtube scam, FWC's development of APRs survey was real slick, anti bear hunt campaign etc.). My recollection is that FWC has caved almost every time it happened in my history whether political or not. IMHO agencies are out to get what they want only and have many very well thought out techniques of convincing vulnerable hunters that the color green is really white.

    Heck years ago during the APR (3 point etc. rule) development FWC sent their PHd expert from Tallahassee down to Ft Lauderdale/Bass Pro to explain their rationale and the results of their rigged survey to hunters. As a circle graph was displayed on a power point showing 2 issues of which   - one was those who want only big bucks and the other of those who liked big bucks once in a while - adding up to 52% of responses (2 issues remember) the expert said Verbally that more than 50% of respondents wanted big bucks all the time. Understand also that I had reminded local staff to make sure the tape recorder was running moments before this meeting began. Well I called the PHd expert on his BS statement that compiled two percentages to give the impression he wanted folks to hear and was aggressive and not particularly polite in doing so - stopped short of profanity. Local staff almost fainted because it was out of character for me to act that way but staff also knew I was right. I called West Palm the next day for a copy of audio tape - Guess What - Yep - I was told they forgot to turn tape machine on even after I reminded them b4 the meeting began.

    We hunters are accomplices to the destruction of something we cherish many times due to thinking we have to be a partner in the solution and it feels cool to be collegial and to have Commissioners address us by 1st name when at the podium BS to that I say. Confrontation (not necessarily nasty) is what the government understands and fears ask PETA, Center for Biological Diversity and HSUS - they know how to play the game and it doesn't take a lot of money if 50 "well informed" people even us hunters could pursue an issue without being derailed by tour own peers which happens all the time because of hunter egos and coordinated goals.

    End of Rant!

  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 619 Officer
    I spent the last 15 years as a govt contractor.  One thing I understand well and is a hallmark of any govt body, dept or individual staff.. self preservation.  AND to keep the money flowing.  Pretty universal.

    For that reason, I've haven't bought into FWC being responsible for loss of access.  Loss of access is undeniable.  And that doesn't make sense at all, with a growing population.  Seems like it would be in FWC's best interest to expand fishing and hunting.  Hence, R3.

    But this thread prompted me to start digging, of course.  Nothing in FWC's mission statement about recreation, hunting or fishing.  Or ensuring access to public resources.  Nothing in their vision.  Not the motto.  Not a mention in their scope.

    FWC Mission Statement: Protecting Florida's natural resources and people through proactive and responsive law enforcement services.

    No reason for them not to identify hunter's as a threat.  They want to keep that money flowing and that's best done by tending to squeaky wheels.

    Which circles me back to wmds regulating recreation, hunting and fishing.  Not in their scope at all.  It's been delegated to them.  Literally.

    So who exactly is ensuring that hunter's rights are protected???? Tell me that!!

    It's been brought up already but what did surveys do for snapper??  Easy to be skeptical.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,666 Admiral
    When will we get back doe week? Where's the data for keeping it closed and not re opening it once again? Has the herd bounced back? What's the status quo?
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 619 Officer
    edited June 5 #42
    Please yes! Doe!  I'm swimming in doe!

    Pretty sure you're making a point though ;)  That in spite of the obvious numbers of doe, we still aren't getting to hunt.  I can hardly wait for the 15th.  0 for 2 last two years on the antlerless permit.  Fingers crossed.
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 1,957 Captain
    We all know in some habitats there can be too many does..not so much in much of FL as recruitment of deer is low.....and, if you are wanting to shoot a deer and it "must be a buck with three points on a side", ie a several year old buck....we have to consider that, in most of Florida, it takes FIVE DOES to produce one shootable buck....So, if you are seeing a lot of does....your chances for that legal buck are much higher....Hopefully, with the DMU concept, areas that do have excess does will get more generous take regulations... 
  • N. CookN. Cook Posts: 1,957 Captain
    Incidentally, there is a DMTAG meeting in the works for later this month in Ocala....The information from FWC staff should be interesting....
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 8,542 Admiral
    Sounds like the new fishing survery:

    Did you catch fish? Yes?  At what spots?  With what bait?  Water temp? Did you troll or deep drop?   What hooks/line/gear were you using?    No?  Thanks for taking the survey.   
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,011 Officer
    5 does to produce a shooter buck - wow.  

    I just know that I'm not a good FL deer hunter - 3 quota hunts last year and seen 1 deer total.  Gonna be 2 or years before I get to go on those hunts again.  Crazy stuff.  Reminds me that I have to apply for permits before the app period is over...
  • fatpossumfatpossum Posts: 195 Deckhand
    edited June 5 #47
    The email deer survey is intended to identify hunters that harvested deer in certain DMUs in order to reach desired sample sizes needed.  That's why it is so short.  The regular survey is conducted over the phone and is much more detailed.  If you support deer hunting in Florida you should consider taking either survey.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    Not sure where Newton got that it takes 5 does to produce a "shootable buck". That hasn't been my experience. 

    Most of the time when people talk about seeing a lot of does and few bucks, the problem is not that there is a surplus of does but rather that there is a lack of bucks.. Unless you're also dealing with too many deer for the habitat, the solution isn't to shoot more does. All that will produce is a property with few bucks AND few does. Is that what is really wanted? I'm guessing not by many, if any.
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    Not sure where Newton got that it takes 5 does to produce a "shootable buck". That hasn't been my experience. 

    Most of the time when people talk about seeing a lot of does and few bucks, the problem is not that there is a surplus of does but rather that there is a lack of bucks.. Unless you're also dealing with too many deer for the habitat, the solution isn't to shoot more does. All that will produce is a property with few bucks AND few does. Is that what is really wanted? I'm guessing not by many, if any.
    A lack of bucks or a lack of bucks during the day time?
    If there are too many deer for the habitat then how is not taking more does not the solution? or at least part of it?

    Is hunting in FLORIDA being turned over to the "snowflake" mentality like everything else? Maybe that is the real question.
    And that is NOT directed at you Walker. I'm just typing my thoughts and listening like everyone else should be.
    I got lots of does, they dump the fawns in my pasture everyday. They lay around till momma comes back. 
    Does are all bred every year, hardly see a buck. unless its 2am of course, some nice ones. I try to outsmart THEM. isn't that hunting?? Are Florida laws to be written by people that simply do not know how to hunt in Florida?
    Those are the people getting surveyed.
    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • Turner River TerrorTurner River Terror Posts: 5,375 Admiral
    Well Dang 4WARD..
    You want me to tell you how the Taylor County Boys do it when they looking for meat ..?
    Killin and Grillin :grin
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    Sounds like you misread what I said.

    When you have too many deer, it's time to shoot enough does to reduce densities to what the habitat can support.

    When you have enough deer for the habitat, it's time to shoot a few does to hold the numbers steady.

    When the habitat can support more deer than you have, it's time to lay off the does to allow densities to increase.
  • 4WARD4WARD Cross Creek,FLPosts: 868 Officer
    edited June 6 #52
    Sounds like you misread what I said.

    Yes I did, well part of it anyway. I apologize
    My point is that seeing lots of deer and few bucks doesn't mean the bucks are not there.
    Sorry for the rant, I had an argument with a real gem this afternoon. Got me in a bad mood.

    I simply struggle with surveys and the fact that some guy in Idaho has a magic equation to somehow make them accurate.








    "I hate graveyards and old pawn shops
    For they always bring me tears
    I can't forgive the way they rob me
    Of my childhood souvenirs"... John Prine
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,666 Admiral
    So is Fl managing for maximun density per acre? or trophy managing?
  • H20dadH20dad Posts: 853 Officer
    So is Fl managing for maximun density per acre? or trophy managing?
    Fewest hunting opportunities possible. Fhop 
  • GeetchGeetch Posts: 77 Greenhorn
    My thoughts. Fewer does means the bucks need to roam more and compete to breed. The best way to see more bucks is to reduce the number of does. When you are overrun with does, bucks don't need to chase as hard to breed. 
  • Killingtime1Killingtime1 Posts: 79 Greenhorn
    edited June 6 #56
    Completed the telephone interview and they wanted to know the overall hunter satisfaction, if I hunted archery, how many days did I hunt, did I harvest a buck and how many points, what county and private or public land.


  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,666 Admiral
    Geetch said:
    My thoughts. Fewer does means the bucks need to roam more and compete to breed. The best way to see more bucks is to reduce the number of does. When you are overrun with does, bucks don't need to chase as hard to breed. 
    Have you ever seen a real rutt in action? It's not like one and done the bucks stay looking 24/7 until the rutt is over no matter how many doe are present
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    So is Fl managing for maximun density per acre? or trophy managing?
    Neither.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    H20dad said:
    So is Fl managing for maximun density per acre? or trophy managing?
    Fewest hunting opportunities possible. Fhop 
    Hardly. Ask Chuck and Newt or any of the otgers who have actually spent a lot of time working with FWC staff to increase public hunting opportunities if the FWC is a roadblock to increasing opportunities.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 7,666 Admiral
    so what are they managing for?
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,723 Captain
    So you believe that there are only two options?

    They are managing the resource the way the public has asked them to.
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