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Why American policing is off the rails and is the problem.

CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
edited May 2018 in Off Topic #1
Great article, just a few select paragraphs below. Read the entire thing...

The Spy Who Came Home

Why an expert in counterterrorism became a beat cop.

No military force can end terrorism, just as firefighters can’t end fire and cops can’t end crime. But there are ways to build a resilient society. “It can’t be on a government contract that says ‘In six months, show us these results,’ ” Skinner said. “It has to be ‘I live here. This is my job forever.’ ” He compared his situation to that of Voltaire’s Candide, who, after enduring a litany of absurd horrors in a society plagued by fanaticism and incompetence, concludes that the only truly worthwhile activity is tending his garden. “Except my garden is the Third Precinct,” Skinner said.

The prevalence of high-powered weapons in America is creating an arms race between citizens and the authorities. Each year, dozens of cops are shot dead, and officers kill around a thousand members of the public—often after mistaking innocuous objects for weapons or frightened behavior for threats. Meanwhile, peaceful protesters are increasingly confronted with snipers, armored vehicles, and smoke and tear gas. In the past twenty years, more than five billion dollars’ worth of military gear has been transferred from the military to state and local police departments, including night-vision equipment, boats, aircraft, grenade launchers, and bayonets. “If we wanted an MRAP”—a military vehicle, designed to protect soldiers from ambushes and mines—“we would just have to submit an application to the federal government,” Skinner told me.

According to David M. Kennedy, one of the nation’s leading criminologists, American policing is practiced more as a craft than as a profession. “The kind of thinking that should go into framing and refining what a profession of public safety should be has still not been done,” he told me. Officers are deployed as enforcers of the state, without being taught psychology, anthropology, sociology, community dynamics, local history, or criminology. Lethal force is prioritized above other options. When Skinner joined the police force, everyone in his class was given a pistol, but none were given Tasers, because the department had run out.


At Georgia’s state police-training facilities, the focus is “all tactics and law,” Skinner told me. Officers are taught that “once you give a lawful order it has to be followed—and that means immediately.” But the recipient of a “lawful order” may not understand why it’s being issued, or that his or her failure to comply may lead to the use of force. There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category. It is up to the officer’s discretion to shape these interactions, and the most straightforward option is to order belligerent people to the ground and, if they resist, tackle them and put them in cuffs.

“This is how situations go so, so badly—yet justifiably, legally,” Skinner said. Police officers often encounter people during the worst moments of their lives, and Skinner believes that his role is partly to resolve trouble and partly to prevent people from crossing the line from what he calls “near-crime” into “actual crime.” The goal, he said, is “to slow things down, using the power of human interaction more than the power of the state.”

“The de-escalation calls are so much more draining for me than grabbing people,” he told me. “My head is humming during the call. It’s exactly—and I mean exactly—like the prep work I used to do for the agency, where you’re seeing the interaction unfold in the way that you steer it.” As a case officer, Skinner drew flowcharts, mapping out every direction he thought a conversation might go. Now, he said, “instead of having a week to prepare for the meeting, I have as much time as it takes to drive up to the call.”



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Replies

  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 13,010 AG
    Personally I feel bad for cops.  Terrible hours, ok pay and they are constantly in a lose/lose situation.  They go in hot, they are in the wrong.  They go in soft and a criminal does serious damage, they are in the wrong.  Their job is crazy difficult and the media never gives them benefit of the doubt.  Even when the media runs them over, like with Charlotte, and it turns out they did nothing wrong...  the media doesn't apologize nor does BLM.
    #Lead beakerhead specialist 

    "Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    They are not being trained correctly...and yes, it is a difficult job.
  • ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 25,647 Moderator
    That's a fascinating article. I wish Mr. Skinner well in his efforts.

    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

    Rabbi Hillel (c20 BCE)

  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 13,010 AG
    Cyclist said:
    They are not being trained correctly...and yes, it is a difficult job.
    I'm not sure they can be trained properly, because regardless of what they do some group is going to complain.  I would never consider being a cop, too much liability and not near enough compensation to offset said liability.
    #Lead beakerhead specialist 

    "Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
  • tankardtankard Posts: 7,030 Admiral

    They get away with murder all the time.

    Very seldom are they held accountable.


  • surfmansurfman Posts: 6,017 Admiral
    edited May 2018 #7
    I know I would murder a few people if I was a cop. Just saying.

    Personally I think they are too soft most of the time from what I have seen. People are real jerks sometimes, especially when drunk or stoned.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    Two things. 
    1. Don’t violate the law. 
    2. Follow the directions/orders given to you by a cop. 
    What if the law wasn't violated and the cop is the problem. They kill people and get away with it. Read the article.

    There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category.
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    Or a fireman goes around setting fires. 
     Google how many cops there are in this country and the number of cops who murder people. 
  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 13,010 AG
    edited May 2018 #11
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    #Lead beakerhead specialist 

    "Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    The point is, if you read the article you would pick this up, is that police are not supposed to act like the military and treat everyone like a terrorist. Police mistakes lead to MANY unnecessary deaths and the law backs them up because the law is a bad law.
  • treemanjohntreemanjohn Posts: 7,998 Admiral
    They have also been suckered into Revenue enhancement. Go to any county Court across the country and see how much money is being raked in . 
    We’re like the piggy bank that everybody is robbing, and that ends
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    Are you a person of color that gets stopped all the time for no reason?
  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 13,010 AG
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    Are you a person of color that gets stopped all the time for no reason?
    Only times I've been stopped have been when I was breaking the law....  crazy, right?
    #Lead beakerhead specialist 

    "Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
  • treemanjohntreemanjohn Posts: 7,998 Admiral
    A person of color? You've lost your mind. White guilt is shameful bicyclist
    We’re like the piggy bank that everybody is robbing, and that ends
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    kellercl said:
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    Are you a person of color that gets stopped all the time for no reason?
    Only times I've been stopped have been when I was breaking the law....  crazy, right?
    But if you were constantly stopped for no reason, harassment, your attitude may change.
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    Stopped for no reason?
    like speeding? Improper lane change? Lights out? Busted windshields? Cell phone use while driving? I could go on. 
    I see it every day in my job. 
  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 13,010 AG
    edited May 2018 #19
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    Are you a person of color that gets stopped all the time for no reason?
    Only times I've been stopped have been when I was breaking the law....  crazy, right?
    But if you were constantly stopped for no reason, harassment, your attitude may change.
    Maybe, but i wonder how many innocent people are constantly being stopped.  Again, I have yet to see a completely innocent respectful person being harassed by the police.  In addition the media is in the business of clicks and reports accordingly.  A NCAAP representative made all kinds of harassment claims, when the dash cam demonstrated he was lying the media stopped reporting.  Same goes for the lady who recently claimed sexual assault.  Oh and when it was determined the Charlotte shooting incident didn't involve a book but rather an illegal gun, once again the media stopped reporting.  I personally don't believe the problem is as made out by our lovely "journalists."  In fact recent dash cams are demonstrating folks are legitimately lying their ***es off.  
    #Lead beakerhead specialist 

    "Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    A black driver is about 31 percent more likely to be pulled over than a white driver, or about 23 percent more likely than a Hispanic driver. "Driving while black" is, indeed, a measurable phenomenon.


  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 13,010 AG
    edited May 2018 #21
    Cyclist said:
    A black driver is about 31 percent more likely to be pulled over than a white driver, or about 23 percent more likely than a Hispanic driver. "Driving while black" is, indeed, a measurable phenomenon.


    Pulled over and pulled over without cause are two grossly different things.  Look up crime rates, or are we going to ignore statistics?  

    If a particular demographic is committing less crime, it stands to reason they get investigated less often.  I'm guessing in particular males 16 to 34 are pulled over the most.... go figure, that demographic commits the most crime.
    #Lead beakerhead specialist 

    "Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
  • surfmansurfman Posts: 6,017 Admiral
    edited May 2018 #22
    I was pulled over recently by a black woman cop because my license plate light was out, does that count? What color do you need to be?

    Don't question him he gets his info from the award winning Washington Post.....
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    kellercl said:
    Cyclist said:
    A black driver is about 31 percent more likely to be pulled over than a white driver, or about 23 percent more likely than a Hispanic driver. "Driving while black" is, indeed, a measurable phenomenon.


    Pulled over and pulled over without cause are two grossly different things.  Look up crime rates, or are we going to ignore statistics?  

    If a particular demographic is committing less crime, it stands to reason they get investigated less often.  I'm guessing in particular males 16 to 34 are pulled over the most.... go figure, that demographic commits the most crime.
    They don't commit 31% more crime...




  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Cyclist said:
    A black driver is about 31 percent more likely to be pulled over than a white driver, or about 23 percent more likely than a Hispanic driver. "Driving while black" is, indeed, a measurable phenomenon.


    Pulled over and pulled over without cause are two grossly different things.  Look up crime rates, or are we going to ignore statistics?  

    If a particular demographic is committing less crime, it stands to reason they get investigated less often.  I'm guessing in particular males 16 to 34 are pulled over the most.... go figure, that demographic commits the most crime.
    They don't commit 31% more crime...




    Your right. It’s about 80% in Chicago. 
  • tankardtankard Posts: 7,030 Admiral

    Kellercl....have you heard of Justine Damond or Daniel Shaver?

    Or do you live under a rock?

  • tankardtankard Posts: 7,030 Admiral
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    The point is, if you read the article you would pick this up, is that police are not supposed to act like the military and treat everyone like a terrorist. Police mistakes lead to MANY unnecessary deaths and the law backs them up because the law is a bad law.

    I  agree with Cyclist 100% here. They have gotten way too militarized, and most of them weren't in the military, so they take it overboard.
  • ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 25,647 Moderator
    tankard said:
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    The point is, if you read the article you would pick this up, is that police are not supposed to act like the military and treat everyone like a terrorist. Police mistakes lead to MANY unnecessary deaths and the law backs them up because the law is a bad law.

    I  agree with Cyclist 100% here. They have gotten way too militarized, and most of them weren't in the military, so they take it overboard.
    I agree with Cyclist and Tankard. They are not supposed to be a paramilitary force.

    And no one is saying they should have a PhD in psychiatry. But they need to be trained to handle situations differently, very differently.

    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

    Rabbi Hillel (c20 BCE)

  • CyclistCyclist Posts: 23,340 AG
    surfman said:
    I was pulled over recently by a black woman cop because my license plate light was out, does that count? What color do you need to be?

    Don't question him he gets his info from the award winning Washington Post.....
    You havn't provided any info on why you THINK the post is as bad as faux news or any of the other fake news outfits...
  • Florida Ex-patFlorida Ex-pat Posts: 586 Officer
    Cyclist said:
    kellercl said:
    Are we going to mandate cops get a Ph.D. in psychiatry?  I'm with mustang, avoid breaking the law and follow orders.  I have yet to see a single cop shooting when the person of interest is being polite and complying.  It all starts with attitude and ignoring commands.  Which is a reflection of how much our values have changed.  Growing up if I had disrespected a cop and my parents caught wind, they would have beaten my ***.  But today people are taught to ignore the law and those who represent it.... and then complain when it ends badly.  
    Are you a person of color that gets stopped all the time for no reason?

    Are you?  If not stop speaking on their behalf.
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 3,843 Captain
    We do live in a police state for sure.. I spent ~6months in Italy.  I drove all over the country, and only saw police cars a handful of times...  I refuse to believe that Americans are that much more criminal than Italians... 

    I think that police should be more like the fire dept; and only respond once called upon.  Traffic infractions are at the very low end of what I am concerned about.  Imagine the sheer costs associated with all the police cars on the road all day, every day.  (both fuel costs, road costs, and environmental costs)

    **** drivers will exist with or without as many cop cars on the road.  Wait till they wreck, and then fine the crap out of the **** drivers.   

    Back to the color thing; I live in another state now, and can say that 90% of "bad" drivers that I encounter all have darker skin..  The route I drive daily to/from work; I usually get passed by at least 1 car driving up the middle "turn lanes", because they are too good to wait in traffic like the rest of us...  It annoys me, but life is short, and usually they get caught at the next red light beside me.  (NC has strict window tint laws, so I can clearly see who is driving btw)

    So, yes, judging by my experience; I can imagine a certain segment of the population might get pulled over more often than others in my area; but, I can honestly assume that they might be pulled over for a good reason...aka driving like an ****! 
  • surfmansurfman Posts: 6,017 Admiral
    Seriously?
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
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