Yes, it's political, but I want warn you guys

mustang190

Tarponator said:

TerminatorX said:

Tarponator said:

So Italy took a hard right turn after all?

I'm sure you are happy.

Absolutely.  Throwing off the shackles of the **** EU program.. and actually run by the son of high ranking ****.  Why would any peoples desire to be ruled by unelected beurocrats?  Another huge win for populism.

Your post is a bit difficult to follow with the censoring.  Perhaps you might try again so it's more clear the extent, and who is the subject of, your ire.

If I'm following you correctly, you're asking why an Italian might prefer to be part of the EU.  There are lots of reasons if you'd like to discuss them, but they don't include being "ruled by unelected bureaucrats [sic]".  They match the reasons why our states are part of the USA.

Populism indeed.

You think the EU is the same as our country???
you might want to look a little closer at what the EU really is. And take a course in civics. 

BallaCoiPersici

Obviously he haven’t a clear vision on what EU really is and what it does.
But not totally his blame, unfortunately the English speaking mainstream media I often read online are really embarrassing about European topics. Left wing media are simply outrageous but also the right wing ones writes quite often BS.

And of course yes, EU is totally different than US.

Tarponator

BallaCoiPersici said:

I'm happy because we keep our sovereignty and democracy.
This has always been the point.

But about the "hard right turn" I think you should check better your sources.

Lega is right wing, that's ok. But not "far right" as many media say.
...
But Five Stars are left wing, definitely.
...
If we want to discuss of something interesting we should instead speak of the democratic revolution of the Italian political system, with all the traditional parties out of the games and with two parties placed at the opposite side of the traditional political scenario which are collaborating to deploy a shared program.
This could be a new trend, if it will be a successful formula, for the whole western world where all the traditional parties are any day closer to the most powerful lobbies and more far from the people.
Just the time can give us the answer.

With a pragmatic point of view I can say that many points on their programmatic agreement are good, some less, some are totally idiocies.

I'm at the window now, looking at them. Paper works well at the toilet, for well managing a nation need facts.

You never lost your sovereignty or democracy, so I'm not sure what point you are making except perhaps you were afraid to lose something that you weren't going to lose in the first place.

As for the "hard right turn" comment, it appears you missed my question mark.  It was a question, not a citation nor a statement of fact.

Regardless, you have touched on the point I was hoping to raise in asking it, so thanks for clearing it up that this is not solely "left" or even "anti-fascism" issue in Italy, as one might presume from your opening post.

And, for what it's worth, I find your final topic (i.e. the so-called 'democratic revolution' going on in Italy) to be far more interesting than the premise of this thread.  More to the point, I think the US two party system is antiquated, corrupt, and holding us back as a country, and there are lots of lessons to be learned from other countries, including Italy.

So, from Italy's perspective, what works and what doesn't work and what is 'total idiocies'?

MelbourneMark

Countries in the EU absolutely lost their sovereignty.  The EU regulates trade and sets price controls...  And many other negative things.   

Eff globalist.  Centralized planning looks great on paper, but works like crap in reality.  The elite love it tho, as they get $$$

i still talk with Italians I met while working in Italy 4 years ago.  Most still have not had a job since. The Italian economy is flat for years..
(not just EU fault)

Tarponator

Hi Mark, 

It appears as if we define "sovereignty" quite differently.  Italy freely choosing to adopt EU trade regulation and price controls (and I suspect each and every one of your "other negative things") do not mean they lost their sovereignty... at least as far as that word is commonly used.   It simply means they have agreed to what's essentially a treaty full of "things", no different from a plethora of similar agreements the US has entered into.

Now you may not like those "things".  You have even condemned them as "globalist".  You might even suggest they are the real reason why your friends don't have jobs.  Good people can and do debate these topics.

None of that changes the sovereign rights of Italians or the terms of their agreement with the EU, nor the underlying struggle in how Italians aim to change and improve their sovereign government.

Because, for me at least, the last populist ripple was the leading edge of a fascist tidal wave in that corner of the world...and we saw where that ended up.

Just some food for thought....Mike

conchydong

Massimo, I hope that the new Government does well for your country. Only time will tell. I will keep my political thoughts out of it (it upsets the left),  but sometimes a  change from normal politicians is good, just like Trump here. Lets hope that the world will be a better place as time goes forward.

Scott

fins4me

Those nations that joined the EU did not have their sovereign rights taken from them,,,, their governments freely gave them away.

mindyabiness

Italy declared war on the us on December 11th 1941.

MelbourneMark

Tarpon,

italy freely joined the EU.  Over the course of time the rules and regulations have changed for many aspects of that.  I have spoken to many Italians and a few other British people who have explained this to me, and they do not entirely like the changes...

i imagine it's hard to be governed from afar, and to not have much recourse... (i.e. Brexit) 

i cannot (or yourself) speak for all Europeans on whether the EU is worth it at this time. 

As for sovereignty;  my definition is that being regulated by other groups/ nations denies my countries sovereignty.... (Yes, the USA has imposed their will on other nations) 

BallaCoiPersici

Tarponator said:

BallaCoiPersici said:

I'm happy because we keep our sovereignty and democracy.
This has always been the point.

But about the "hard right turn" I think you should check better your sources.

Lega is right wing, that's ok. But not "far right" as many media say.
...
But Five Stars are left wing, definitely.
...
If we want to discuss of something interesting we should instead speak of the democratic revolution of the Italian political system, with all the traditional parties out of the games and with two parties placed at the opposite side of the traditional political scenario which are collaborating to deploy a shared program.
This could be a new trend, if it will be a successful formula, for the whole western world where all the traditional parties are any day closer to the most powerful lobbies and more far from the people.
Just the time can give us the answer.

With a pragmatic point of view I can say that many points on their programmatic agreement are good, some less, some are totally idiocies.

I'm at the window now, looking at them. Paper works well at the toilet, for well managing a nation need facts.

You never lost your sovereignty or democracy, so I'm not sure what point you are making except perhaps you were afraid to lose something that you weren't going to lose in the first place.
As I already said check better your sources .

As for the "hard right turn" comment, it appears you missed my question mark.  It was a question, not a citation nor a statement of fact.
Perhaps a pretty rhetorical question ?

Regardless, you have touched on the point I was hoping to raise in asking it, so thanks for clearing it up that this is not solely "left" or even "anti-fascism" issue in Italy, as one might presume from your opening post.

And, for what it's worth, I find your final topic (i.e. the so-called 'democratic revolution' going on in Italy) to be far more interesting than the premise of this thread.  More to the point, I think the US two party system is antiquated, corrupt, and holding us back as a country, and there are lots of lessons to be learned from other countries, including Italy.
I don't know if this system will work. For sure is a government based on a program and handled by people who mustn't abide ideologies and related dogmas.
In my opinion is a positive change.

So, from Italy's perspective, what works and what doesn't work and what is 'total idiocies'?
From an Italian's perspective, not from Italy's perspective .
Too much things to discuss about.
Good almost everything on economics, UE (and foreign) and safety (self defense and immigration). Welfare is the area where I have more doubts, some are very bad (for instance, as I already said the proposed universal income is an idiocy, almost bad as Obamacare).

BallaCoiPersici

conchydong said:

Massimo, I hope that the new Government does well for your country. Only time will tell. I will keep my political thoughts out of it (it upsets the left),  but sometimes a  change from normal politicians is good, just like Trump here. Lets hope that the world will be a better place as time goes forward.

Scott

Thanks Scott.

Yes, only time will tell.

And yes again, a strong punch in the soft belly of the establishments could be very useful, sometime. Hope it will work here like is working very well there, although here the change is very strong (Trump is (more or less) endorsed by Republicans, the new Italian government has no endorsements by traditional parties).

BallaCoiPersici

MelbourneMark said:

Tarpon,

italy freely joined the EU.  Over the course of time the rules and regulations have changed for many aspects of that.  I have spoken to many Italians and a few other British people who have explained this to me, and they do not entirely like the changes...

i imagine it's hard to be governed from afar, and to not have much recourse... (i.e. Brexit) 

i cannot (or yourself) speak for all Europeans on whether the EU is worth it at this time. 

As for sovereignty;  my definition is that being regulated by other groups/ nations denies my countries sovereignty.... (Yes, the USA has imposed their will on other nations) 

Italy is one of the EU founders. Better, probably is the country that invested the most effort to build EU.

And yes, you’re right, meantime the world is changed, the EU is changed. Both in a very bad direction.

Now we have to defend ourselves by the bureaucracy monster we have creates who is moving in the nowadays difficult world like anything should be based on economy and political correctness.

P.S. this new platform really sucks. 

BallaCoiPersici

BTW today is the Republic Day and we have had the parade in Rome.

At 1:15:05 pretty cool

https://youtu.be/JmWe_LOkF-Y

Tarponator

So, what's worse, Balla?  SSN or Obamacare?

mustang190

Tarponator said:

So, what's worse, Balla?  SSN or Obamacare?

What kind of a question is that ?

BallaCoiPersici

Good question.
Probably Obamacare because it has been a politicallly correct votes-bait.

If with SSN you are referring at our healthcare.

Tarponator

I am referring to your healthcare.

It's worth noting Italy's SSN is far more socialized than Obamacare.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you say "politically correct votes-bait".

dave44

Tarponator said:

I am referring to your healthcare.

It's worth noting Italy's SSN is far more socialized than Obamacare.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you say "politically correct votes-bait".

You really have no idea? 
  That’s pretty funny.

BallaCoiPersici

Tarponator said:

I am referring to your healthcare.

It's worth noting Italy's SSN is far more socialized than Obamacare.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you say "politically correct votes-bait".

Our healthcare is pretty bad.
Who pays taxes gets the same healthcare of those who pay nothing (e.g. professional unemployed, gypsies, illegal immigrants, etc.).
This obviously means a bad healthcare (not as quality but as reliability and availability) for everybody. Our SSN performances could be right for who pays nothing but is a deep injustice for who pays everything and often have to wait ten/twelve months for an urgent screening because the queue is infinite.
 
Anyway it hasn't been a recent electoral trick to collect votes of the parasites, like Obamacare.
Indeed our SSN system has been created by Mussolini during his first years (Mussolini indeed had socialists roots and fascism has been nothing more than one way to enforce the real socialism. Other dictators have chosen communism, others more have chosen national socialism, but the result has been the same in any case: no freedom, citizens killed or disappeared, isolationism, statism, etc.).