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Yeti Drops NRA Foundation

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  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #122
    Cyclist said:
    Those trends correlate but are prove nothing. CC does not do what you imply.

    More guns equal more gun deaths. That has been proven time and time again.

    A real statistical take on the issue.
    https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/right-carry-laws-revisiting-link-between-guns-crime

    Only you would dispute pure data with a magazine article.... Well not only you... And I still do not get why Tarpon was talking about Kentucky last night.... But you guys get so twisted up your forget where you are going and end up talking in circles.


    Fact is.... Violent crime in Florida is currently at its lowest point in your lifetime. And gun ownership is at its highest point..... The beginning of the dramatic drop in the violent crime coincided with the passing of the shall issue statute.... You can argue all you want.... Tarpon can rant about correlation is not causation.and Kentucky all he wants.... 

    But we have three facts.

    1) Crime in Florida is at its lowest rate than it has been at any point in our lives.
    2) There are more guns in Florida than ever.
    3) A LARGE percentage of the population have CCWs.


    Play it any way you want...

    I'm not ranting about anything -- I'm simply repeating myself, like I would if you insisted 1+1=3 or pit bulls are the safest breed of dog to own.

    And I'll do it again:  Correlation is not causation.   Did you ever take statistics?

    Here are three similarly provable facts that will help explain what is self evident to anyone who has:

    1) Crime in Florida is at its lowest rate than it has been at any point in our lives.
    2) There are more yankees who have moved to Florida than ever.
    3) A LARGE population of yankees have summer homes here.

    So, by your logic, we should be thanking yankees for our low rate of crime.

    Get it yet? 

    If not, you might review this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

    And I should have said Tennessee not Kentucky, not that it matters -- gun ownership and CCW rates are similar -- and none of that matters when study after study disputes your contention that more guns and/or more concealed guns make for less crime including this one:  https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2017.304057

    What really happened is that the CCW issue laws in Florida were well timed with a decrease in crime (and an increase in the aforementioned yankees), and we continue to be an outlier in this regard.

    And that's the way I'll play it.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    Cyclist said:
    Those trends correlate but are prove nothing. CC does not do what you imply.

    More guns equal more gun deaths. That has been proven time and time again.

    A real statistical take on the issue.
    https://journalistsresource.org/studies/government/criminal-justice/right-carry-laws-revisiting-link-between-guns-crime

    Only you would dispute pure data with a magazine article.... Well not only you... And I still do not get why Tarpon was talking about Kentucky last night.... But you guys get so twisted up your forget where you are going and end up talking in circles.


    Fact is.... Violent crime in Florida is currently at its lowest point in your lifetime. And gun ownership is at its highest point..... The beginning of the dramatic drop in the violent crime coincided with the passing of the shall issue statute.... You can argue all you want.... Tarpon can rant about correlation is not causation.and Kentucky all he wants.... 

    But we have three facts.

    1) Crime in Florida is at its lowest rate than it has been at any point in our lives.
    2) There are more guns in Florida than ever.
    3) A LARGE percentage of the population have CCWs.


    Play it any way you want...

    I'm not ranting about anything -- I'm simply repeating myself, like I would if you insisted 1+1=3 or pit bulls are the safest breed of dog to own.

    And I'll do it again:  Correlation is not causation.   Did you ever take statistics?

    Here are three similarly provable facts that will help explain what is self evident to anyone who has:

    1) Crime in Florida is at its lowest rate than it has been at any point in our lives.
    2) There are more yankees who have moved to Florida than ever.
    3) A LARGE population of yankees have summer homes here.

    So, by your logic, we should be thanking yankees for our low rate of crime.

    Get it yet? 

    If not, you might review this:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

    And I should have said Tennessee not Kentucky, not that it matters -- gun ownership and CCW rates are similar -- and none of that matters when study after study disputes your contention that more guns and/or more concealed guns make for less crime including this one:  https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2017.304057

    What really happened is that the CCW issue laws in Florida were well timed with a decrease in crime, and we continue to be an outlier in this regard.

    And that's the way I'll play it.
    Still twisting.... Statistics and stereotypes exist for a reason..

    You are wrong (as usual) about Kentucky and Tennessee by the way..... Both in pure numbers of CCW's and in percentages.....

    But keep rambling.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #124
    Yeah, I know, all those doctorates and college degrees intimidate you.  Let's net it out then using the study above:

    Results. Shall-issue laws were significantly associated with 6.5% higher total homicide rates, 8.6% higher firearm homicide rates, and 10.6% higher handgun homicide rates, but were not significantly associated with long-gun or nonfirearm homicide.

    Conclusions. Shall-issue laws are associated with significantly higher rates of total, firearm-related, and handgun-related homicide.


    Speaking of stereotypes, how many guns do you own, Johnny?

  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,854 AG
    edited April 2018 #125
    But we can see by those stats that CC has not increased gun violence or deaths, we can correlate that.

    I hate when I have to answer my own question.  

    So people are against CC on what grounds then?

    Captain Todd Approves

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #126
    You are wrong (as usual) about Kentucky and Tennessee by the way..... Both in pure numbers of CCW's and in percentages.....

    But keep rambling.
    And how about this for a ramble?

    Gun ownership rates:
    Tennessee 43.9% (14th)
    Kentucky 47.7% (11th)

    CCW rates:
    Tennessee 594,498 CCW /  6,495,978 pop = 9.1% CCW
    Kentucky 311,994 CCW /  4,454,189 pop = 7.0% CCW

    So, who was wrong (as usual) again?

    Johnny, Perhaps you should stick to dogs, because you are an ill informed even for a gun nut....and I'm way out of your league.

    Sincerely...Mike the Rambling, Gambling, Hell of an Engineer

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #127
    mplspug said:
    So people are against CC on what grounds then?
    I'm not against CC.  If you want to carry a gun, more power to you.

    But that doesn't change the facts of the matter in terms gun ownership/CCW/shall issue states vis-a-vis crime and murder.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    Yeah, I know, all those doctorates and college degrees intimidate you.  Let's net it out then using the study above:

    Results. Shall-issue laws were significantly associated with 6.5% higher total homicide rates, 8.6% higher firearm homicide rates, and 10.6% higher handgun homicide rates, but were not significantly associated with long-gun or nonfirearm homicide.

    Conclusions. Shall-issue laws are associated with significantly higher rates of total, firearm-related, and handgun-related homicide.


    Speaking of stereotypes, how many guns do you own, Johnny?

    LOL.... Yea I am intimidated alright......

    How about we compare Houston and Chicago....
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #129
    Go ahead.  I'll happily shoot holes in your carefully chosen cities and whatever silly conclusions you might draw by comparing them.

    But first, kindly, tell us how many guns you own.

    I own 3.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    You are wrong (as usual) about Kentucky and Tennessee by the way..... Both in pure numbers of CCW's and in percentages.....

    But keep rambling.
    And how about this for a ramble?

    Gun ownership rates:
    Tennessee 43.9% (14th)
    Kentucky 47.7% (11th)

    CCW rates:
    Tennessee 594,498 CCW /  6,495,978 pop = 9.1% CCW
    Kentucky 311,994 CCW /  4,454,189 pop = 7.0% CCW

    So, who was wrong (as usual) again?

    Johnny, Perhaps you should stick to dogs, because you are an ill informed even for a gun nut....and I'm way out of your league.

    Sincerely...Mike the Rambling, Gambling, Hell of an Engineer

    LMAO.... Typical..... When you cannot back up your argument, start putting yourself on an imaginary pedestal and  start calling people names....
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #131
    That's what happens when you question my logic or reasoning skills, and are wrong to boot.  I put you in your place and rub your face in it.

    Call it a character flaw.

    But you must have missed the entire post you quoted -- you know, where I backed up my argument.

    Typical indeed.
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 11,752 AG
    That's what happens when you question my logic or reasoning skills, and are wrong to boot.  I put you in your place and rub your face in it.

    Call it a character flaw.
     Most say you have an intelligence flaw.
      Not everyone, just the people that know you.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #133
    Not a single person I know has said that.  They know better.

    Just gun nuts and/or conservatives on this forum, after I make them look foolish, generally.

    Know anyone like that?
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    Go ahead.  I'll happily shoot holes in your carefully chosen cities and whatever silly conclusions you might draw by comparing them.

    But first, kindly, tell us how many guns you own.

    I own 3.
    I own several guns....
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,271 AG
    Yeah, I know, all those doctorates and college degrees intimidate you.  Let's net it out then using the study above:

    Results. Shall-issue laws were significantly associated with 6.5% higher total homicide rates, 8.6% higher firearm homicide rates, and 10.6% higher handgun homicide rates, but were not significantly associated with long-gun or nonfirearm homicide.

    Conclusions. Shall-issue laws are associated with significantly higher rates of total, firearm-related, and handgun-related homicide.


    Speaking of stereotypes, how many guns do you own, Johnny?

    Aren't you the one who said "Correlation is not causation" but post a study claiming such? You say one study is wrong because Correlation is not causation, but use a study that says Correlation is causation to try and prove a point?

    The real truth is, both sides can point to studies and statistics and make all kinds of correlation about gun ownership and deaths by guns. but unless you can design a study to remove all outside influences, nothing is proven one way or the other. It is simply impossible to know whether or not more guns cause less crime or more suicides. or any of the other crap you keep trying to prove because there are other outside influences corrupting any data set you decide to use, One study mentioned on here tried to adjust for the drug epidemic. Once you start adjusting the data to remove perceived outside influence, the data is already garbage and basically just opinion of the group. At least two of the studies mentioned here had dissenting members who did agree with the others, That further indicates insufficient data to prove the hypothesis one way or the other. 


    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    I suspected so. 

    How many?
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 11,752 AG
    Not a single person I know has said that.  They know better.

    Just gun nuts and/or conservatives on this forum, after I make them look foolish, generally.

    Know anyone like that?
    Not that I can think of. Besides making yourself look foolish. But you probably don’t count for much.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    Meh, have another drink, it'll be OK.  :)
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    I suspected so. 

    How many?
    It does not matter if I own 5 or 500.... You have long ago erroneously categorized me as a gun nut.... Or are just using it as a tactic because you have no valid argument and think it might get under my skin...

    You would be incorrect on either account.....

    IF you really want to know a figure, I will tell you privately.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #140
    cadman said:
    Yeah, I know, all those doctorates and college degrees intimidate you.  Let's net it out then using the study above:

    Results. Shall-issue laws were significantly associated with 6.5% higher total homicide rates, 8.6% higher firearm homicide rates, and 10.6% higher handgun homicide rates, but were not significantly associated with long-gun or nonfirearm homicide.

    Conclusions. Shall-issue laws are associated with significantly higher rates of total, firearm-related, and handgun-related homicide.


    Speaking of stereotypes, how many guns do you own, Johnny?

    Aren't you the one who said "Correlation is not causation" but post a study claiming such? You say one study is wrong because Correlation is not causation, but use a study that says Correlation is causation to try and prove a point?

    The real truth is, both sides can point to studies and statistics and make all kinds of correlation about gun ownership and deaths by guns. but unless you can design a study to remove all outside influences, nothing is proven one way or the other. It is simply impossible to know whether or not more guns cause less crime or more suicides. or any of the other crap you keep trying to prove because there are other outside influences corrupting any data set you decide to use, One study mentioned on here tried to adjust for the drug epidemic. Once you start adjusting the data to remove perceived outside influence, the data is already garbage and basically just opinion of the group. At least two of the studies mentioned here had dissenting members who did agree with the others, That further indicates insufficient data to prove the hypothesis one way or the other. 


    I did say that and I did cite that source, which correlated the opposite of what Johnny was saying... and you will note that nowhere did I state that a causative link has been found either way.  As you point out, Cad, it is impossible to know one way or the other, but I will point out that there are more studies that suggest just the opposite of Johnny's contention.

    None of that changes the original point that led this down the rabbit hole:  Correlation is not causation.

    And on this point, you and I certainly will agree.
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,854 AG
    mplspug said:
    So people are against CC on what grounds then?
    I'm not against CC.  If you want to carry a gun, more power to you.

    But that doesn't change the facts of the matter in terms gun ownership/CCW/shall issue states vis-a-vis crime and murder.
    I wasnt pointing fingers.  I am confused as to people arguing about CC when it's obvious it doesn't turn society into the wild wild west.  So who gives a rats ****.

    Captain Todd Approves

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #142
    The NRA and Johnny, apparently.
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,854 AG
    And.....

    Captain Todd Approves

  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    The NRA and Johnny, apparently.
    you miss my point... But you are far too busy proving to us how much you (don't) know...

    And I did not miss your comparison between Kentucky and Tennessee in terms of numbers. Because your are incorrect..
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    I suspected so. 

    How many?
    It does not matter if I own 5 or 500.... You have long ago erroneously categorized me as a gun nut.... Or are just using it as a tactic because you have no valid argument and think it might get under my skin...

    You would be incorrect on either account.....

    IF you really want to know a figure, I will tell you privately.
    Really, it's more of a ****-for-tat reaction rather than a lack of argument. 

    I would like to know, otherwise I would not have asked, and your secret is safe with me.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #146
    The NRA and Johnny, apparently.
    you miss my point... But you are far too busy proving to us how much you (don't) know...

    And I did not miss your comparison between Kentucky and Tennessee in terms of numbers. Because your are incorrect..
    What point is that?

    As for incorrect, here are the sources:

    Gun ownership: http://demographicdata.org/facts-and-figures/gun-ownership-statistics/
    CCW permits:  https://www.gunstocarry.com/concealed-carry-statistics/
    Population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

    If you have alternative/better ones, I'm all ears -- particuarly if they show that Kentucky and Tennessee are dissimilar.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,271 AG
    I suspected so. 

    How many?
    It does not matter if I own 5 or 500.... You have long ago erroneously categorized me as a gun nut.... Or are just using it as a tactic because you have no valid argument and think it might get under my skin...

    You would be incorrect on either account.....

    IF you really want to know a figure, I will tell you privately.
    Really, it's more of a ****-for-tat reaction rather than a lack of argument. 

    I would like to know, otherwise I would not have asked, and your secret is safe with me.
    It is immaterial since correlation is not causation.  :)

    why do you keep arguing against certain guns and seem opposed to CCW if there is no evidence to support that either of these items cause any of the problems you wish to assign to them? You keep saying correlation is not causation, but turn around and base your entire argument on that very same assumption. You do this repeatedly in these discussions about weapons. 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    edited April 2018 #148
    You mistake my logic, Cad.  I'm not arguing they increase or reduce crime.  I'm simply showing the flip side of the coin, and you are correct to point out that they are both correlation arguments.
  • ResinheadResinhead Posts: 10,987 AG

    Sincerely...Mike the Rambling, Gambling, Hell of an Engineer


    Be careful, you seem to be popcorning the ego pills again.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,271 AG
    You mistake my logic, Cad.  I'm not arguing they increase or reduce crime.  I'm simply showing the flip side of the coin, and you are correct to point out that they are both correlation arguments.
    Then what do you base your arguments on gun control on then? Why do we need more gun control? 

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,525 Admiral
    The NRA and Johnny, apparently.
    you miss my point... But you are far too busy proving to us how much you (don't) know...

    And I did not miss your comparison between Kentucky and Tennessee in terms of numbers. Because your are incorrect..
    What point is that?

    As for incorrect, here are the sources:

    Gun ownership: http://demographicdata.org/facts-and-figures/gun-ownership-statistics/
    CCW permits:  https://www.gunstocarry.com/concealed-carry-statistics/
    Population: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

    If you have alternative/better ones, I'm all ears -- particuarly if they show that Kentucky and Tennessee are dissimilar.
    directly from one of your links..... Kentuckly has about 300k concealed permit holders, Tennessee has close to 600.... Those are not similar numbers
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