Red snapper count

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Replies

  • Doc StressorDoc Stressor Homosassa, FLPosts: 2,252 Captain
    I am a trained biologist and statistician. Fisheries-independent data relevant to red snapper management would cost almost as much as cancer research if it was the only way to manage the stock. It would need a Department of Defense level budget. So data from commercial and sport fisheries is the best available science. Without it, there will be no science. Only politics. And that has resulted in nothing but fishery failures in the past. 

    It's in everybody's interest to cooperate with the agencies that will make the recommendations that determine the fishery. 
  • red_snapperdatared_snapperdata destinPosts: 5 Greenhorn
    How about recreational angler weigh stations at every boat ramp and marina. Yearly fee less than a cup of java from starbucks.
  • red_snapperdatared_snapperdata destinPosts: 5 Greenhorn
    brettfitz said:
    Hi spangler. Yes, I am promoting the program. Got better ideas? I am willing to listen.
    We have a program that completes the state fish apps. We weigh your catch upon returning, no MRIP involvement just angler involvement, we validate information entered by photographing the fish. Now willing to listen because the states and feds are not!! It is expensive, yearly fee from gulf anglers $3. 



  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,014 Officer
    edited July 29 #35
    spangler said:
    It takes less than a minute to do.
    NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY!  Nor should it be.  Ridiculous!!!  Are you really expecting the general public to provide accurate data, in any kind of predictable way.  Laughs...

    And really, less than a minute.. well that's debatable.  So do I do this for EVERY fish I catch?  Pinfish.  Catfish.  Where does this all end?????

    Quantity and size limits works. Period.  Catch/Harvest data does not even come close to being representative of a fishery's health (or any other wildlife).  Period. 

    I know I don't have to tell any of you that populations of any species are cyclical.  How does your catch data differentiate from that??

    Try again.




    Spangler - I'm not targeting you with this.  You just wrote what LOTS of folks think.  

    Not my responsibility - NEVER!  LOL!  

    The Average Joe is emotionally involved, not happy, and gonna take it out on someone.  He is also likely to do nothing but complain & find fault, no matter what.  That's what we have going on - seems like it is all we have going on.

    All folks do is whine, complain, and demand.  It is never "my fault" and it is never "my responsibility" yet "I" want to catch & kill all I want - "you deal with the mess".  That's the general public.  
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,576 Captain
    Personally, I don't believe we need a quota at all - we don't need a quota for red fish, flounder, or trout - why do we need one for snapper?  There are exponentially more people fishing 365 days/year for trout/redfish/flounder and the fisheries managers have other ways to track the health of the fishery besides counting every fish.  Unfortunately, the law states we must have a quota and I have proffered an idea that could work.  Forget about reporting landings data - just knowing how many fishermen (private rec, charter, and headboat) are fishing our of what ports on what days would be extremely valuable data - right now, here in Texas you can buy the Super Combo, which has a whole variety of fishing/hunting options included, including saltwater license.   So, the guy up in Texarkana fishing for freshwater bass is counted as fishing for red snapper - there is no way to differentiate how many people ACTUALLY fish offshore.  The OFS Permit Plan (also known as Mississippi's Tails and Scales) would provide much more accurate information, at least on that side of the equation.
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,014 Officer
    FL has the gulf reef fishing program - folks are required to indicate if they fish the gulf for reef fish and may get surveys about what they catch, etc.

    They could do it for the FL Atlantic reef fish as well.

    If you are looking for another state - maybe the template could be copied?  You can google to see what it is.

  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 620 Officer
    edited July 31 #38
    Rich, it's hard to believe you are not targeting me when you consistently get on here and try and paint a picture about me.  One which is, consistently, wrong.  I wasn't going to call you out, directly, on the forum we most participate in and have a greater audience.  But seriously, it's getting old.

    You don't know me and you sure as **** are mistaken.

    To clarify my stance in a very simple, easy to understand way:

    My problem is with unnecessarily, over-complicating everything in this life. 

    Guess what?  Catch limits work.  Restricting size and number of take, has not only BEEN WORKING for 100 Years now, but has restored once threatened species.  Brought them back to sustainable yields.  Plain and simple.  And it works!

    What they are doing, is madness.  And it screws everything up all the time (ARS, Goliaths, Bears, Cougars.. etc, etc, etc).  So yeah, you're right.  I'm whining....

  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    I think Rich hit the nail on the head.... 




    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 620 Officer
    edited July 31 #40
    I think we should solve the problems with fisheries by designating more species as game fish.....       crabs too!
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    spangler said:
    I think we should solve the problems with fisheries by designating more species as game fish..... crabs too!
    sure, fits in with your line of crazy ideas.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 620 Officer
    edited July 31 #42
    I figured while everyone else is throwing out crazy....


    If you were really paying attention, you'd know i wasn't being serious.  I was making a point.  But we all know where you stand.  Pretty sure you're paid to come on here and comment if someone says the word 'commercial' 

    Not surprised that your onboard with making things difficult for the rec guy......
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,014 Officer
    edited July 31 #43
    Spangler - I like you - you have spunk and aren't afraid to say stuff.  We don't always agree, that's just being two diff guys.  I'm also a cynical old fellow. 

    Your post was very dead-on, hit the nail perfect.  You painted Joe Public and how he thinks.  At least enough of the guys I know.

    My past involves the following:
    The decline of the striped bass fisheries up north - they fished em to the brink, shut it down, it came back, they eased up on strict 36-inch size restrictions and it went back down again.  Can't beg a striper where I used to catch 'em all the time.  Same for codfish, same for winter flounder/sole, same for tautog (blackfish).  All very good eating, all very scarce where I used to fish due to over-fishing and fishing the spawn.

    The common denominator was catch limits and not actual fisheries management - they all now have seasons, to protect the spawn and to keep folks from fishing the given species whenever the fish gather in large groups.  It is the only way to preserve the species.  Snook is a great example, FL almost lost the snook fishery due to over-fishing.  Now you can't keep em during the spawn when they gather - and we have a strict slot limit.  Exactly what we are talking about here.

    In order to set the seasons we need data.

    The idea that we can just go and take what we want, do what we want is no longer viable.  Too many people.  Who would have though that the global overcrowding thing would impact our fishing?
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    spangler said:
    I figured while everyone else is throwing out crazy....


    If you were really paying attention, you'd know i wasn't being serious.  I was making a point.  But we all know where you stand.  Pretty sure you're paid to come on here and comment if someone says the word 'commercial' 

    Not surprised that your onboard with making things difficult for the rec guy......
    I wish I was paid for harassing y'all but no i am not.
    I'm not a lobbyist, just a small fisherman that understands if I am not part of the solution then I am part of the problem..

    I could give a rats a s s about what the recs catch or don't, however I have a problem with the recs wanting the commercials share of a fishery when the recs have zero accountability for their share..
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 620 Officer
    edited July 31 #45
    Rich I like you too bud.  But come one.  The last time you replied to something I said, you called me an idealist.  HA.  I'm probably one of the most pragmatic people you've ever met.  Just don't like people makin judgements about me, prob sensitive about it, cuz it happens all the time.

    Regarding season.. I'm all for that too.  Simple.  Common sense.  I'm not promoting a take for all, no holds barred approach.  Never. 

    And sorry, the thread wasn't about slots or seasons or catch limits (all of which I am for, for crying out loud!), it was about the average joe collecting data... or even being mandated too.

    I'm all for science. I'm an engineer too friend.

    But when I fish, I just wanna fish.  When I hunt, I just wanna hunt. 

    We are moving in a really bad direction.  I feel for future generations.  NOTHING I say on here isn't for them. 

    Btw, I'm pretty sure we've got a solid grasps on pretty much all of the targeted species spawning periods.  Catch data isn't gonna help with that unless we think joe angler should start performing autopsies.  Hmmm..  Why not.......
  • spanglerspangler daBurgPosts: 620 Officer
    ANUMBER1 said:

    I could give a rats a s s about what the recs catch or don't, however I have a problem with the recs wanting the commercials share of a fishery when the recs have zero accountability for their share..
    Exactly, you're just P'd off because commercial guys are already forced to.  The commercial guys get screwed.  I mean the ones doing the work...  As if the job isn't hard enough, now the data logging and the bs supply chain that steadily pinches the operators.  I'd love to be a commercial fisherman.  Independent.  Can't hardly do it.  Killin oneself to scrape by.  It shouldn't be. Personally, I think it's immoral. 

    As far as "commercial's share" lol I've seen it at the grocery store for all my life.  Fresh red snapper.  Anytime I want. That's actually fine.  No prob.  As long as commercial operators have limits and follow them, and it's sustainable. As simple as ours would suit me just as well.  Instead, the system they go with sucks. Too complicated.  Prob a 'good' 'scientific' reason tho.  The 'commercial' doesn't want people steppin on their toes, as usual.  Crony capitalism.  That's the outrage.

    Don't get me started on barriers to entry, created through commercial lobbying.  Totally unreasonable. 

    But yeah, you 'guys' get screwed, so screw everyone else.  right?

    You really think collecting recreational harvest data is gonna help fisheries??   You know what I have seen work?  Size, bag, season. Brought animals back from the brink of extinction.  Quite literally.  To healthy abundant populations.  But yeah, game species status would help too with a lot of things. You're lucky I'm not trumpeting that horn.  But I might if people keep being too greedy.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,235 Captain
    The only reason recs don't collect better data is because it is virtually impossible to do so. Heck even the commercial data is probably 80% at best, they account for every fish brought in I am sure, none of that under the table stuff or any kind of shenanigans like that I'm sure.........
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    surfman said:
    The only reason recs don't collect better data is because it is virtually impossible to do so. Heck even the commercial data is probably 80% at best, they account for every fish brought in I am sure, none of that under the table stuff or any kind of shenanigans like that I'm sure........



    We're working on some of those backdoor recreational bait crab sales now...
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    spangler said:
    ANUMBER1 said:

    I could give a rats a s s about what the recs catch or don't, however I have a problem with the recs wanting the commercials share of a fishery when the recs have zero accountability for their share..
    Exactly, you're just P'd off because commercial guys are already forced to.  The commercial guys get screwed.  I mean the ones doing the work...  As if the job isn't hard enough, now the data logging and the bs supply chain that steadily pinches the operators.  I'd love to be a commercial fisherman.  Independent.  Can't hardly do it.  Killin oneself to scrape by.  It shouldn't be. Personally, I think it's immoral. 

    As far as "commercial's share" lol I've seen it at the grocery store for all my life.  Fresh red snapper.  Anytime I want. That's actually fine.  No prob.  As long as commercial operators have limits and follow them, and it's sustainable. As simple as ours would suit me just as well.  Instead, the system they go with sucks. Too complicated.  Prob a 'good' 'scientific' reason tho.  The 'commercial' doesn't want people steppin on their toes, as usual.  Crony capitalism.  That's the outrage.

    Don't get me started on barriers to entry, created through commercial lobbying.  Totally unreasonable. 

    But yeah, you 'guys' get screwed, so screw everyone else.  right?

    You really think collecting recreational harvest data is gonna help fisheries??   You know what I have seen work?  Size, bag, season. Brought animals back from the brink of extinction.  Quite literally.  To healthy abundant populations.  But yeah, game species status would help too with a lot of things. You're lucky I'm not trumpeting that horn.  But I might if people keep being too greedy.





    I think you are trolling.

    That or you have a huge inflated opinion of yourself and your place in this world.. lol
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,235 Captain
    edited August 1 #50
    That's a good thing, I hate poachers, recreational and commercial.

    Of course selling your catch is not recreational, now is it.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    surfman said:
    That's a good thing, I hate poachers, recreational and commercial.

    Of course selling your catch is not recreational, now is it.
    they have a recreational fishing license so...
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,676 Admiral
    And are operating under rec bag limits so...
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 4,235 Captain
    Selling your catch makes you commercial, license or not, so....
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.
  • Reel TealReel Teal Posts: 2,864 Captain
    surfman said:
    Selling your catch makes you commercial, license or not, so....
    No it makes you a criminal. Criminals are their own group. 
  • Rich MRich M Posts: 1,014 Officer
    spangler said:
    Rich I like you too bud.  But come one.  The last time you replied to something I said, you called me an idealist.  HA.  I'm probably one of the most pragmatic people you've ever met.  Just don't like people makin judgements about me, prob sensitive about it, cuz it happens all the time.

    Regarding season.. I'm all for that too.  Simple.  Common sense.  I'm not promoting a take for all, no holds barred approach.  Never. 

    And sorry, the thread wasn't about slots or seasons or catch limits (all of which I am for, for crying out loud!), it was about the average joe collecting data... or even being mandated too.

    I'm all for science. I'm an engineer too friend.

    But when I fish, I just wanna fish.  When I hunt, I just wanna hunt. 

    We are moving in a really bad direction.  I feel for future generations.  NOTHING I say on here isn't for them. 

    Btw, I'm pretty sure we've got a solid grasps on pretty much all of the targeted species spawning periods.  Catch data isn't gonna help with that unless we think joe angler should start performing autopsies.  Hmmm..  Why not.......
    I may have used idealist incorrectly?  I think your approach is straight forward from the idea that you have about the process and the perceived result. That is if my assumptions of your ideas and the results you perceive you should get are correct.  Does that make sense?

    What I'm thinking about is that there are more fishermen than fish now.  Imagine how many folks will be on the peninsula in another 10 or 20 years.

    The idea of preserving something for the next generation is why the regulations are coming.  We want the same thing, just diff approaches and willingness to put up with the BS.
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