Half cent sales tax hike straight to the crapper.

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Replies

  • finnaddict98finnaddict98 Posts: 81 Greenhorn
    Fix the problems with run off and sewage AND install an inlet
    in the Palm Beach County ICW either side of the Lake Worth Inlet is pretty squared away----if we do NOT dredge that muck up and out AND fix run off and sewage issues AND install an inlet, we will only fix SOME of the problem, which will address NONE of the problem. It seems as if no one is willing to seriously look at an inlet, which "could" be one of the more expedient ways to START getting this under control. My comparison to PBC isn't to say that the ICW is "great"---it isn't at ALL, but it does show that "moving water" can address some of the issues. If you keep trying to empty the broken toilet without flushing it, its going to take a very very very long time to accomplish this goal.

    Just my 2 cents worth---

    JM
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    duckmanJR wrote: »
    I think that the sentence quoted above also needs to read....

    All the problems were not created all at once....so they cannot all be fixed all at once...but... DON'T GET DISCOURAGED :)
    Thanks for being my editor Joe. That says what I wanted to say much better.
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    JohninFl wrote: »
    did I clarify or confuse? John
    Clarified it for me. Capacity vs nutrient output. Makes sense. Thanks again for your time on the committee and responding here.
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    It seems as if no one is willing to seriously look at an inlet

    Saint Johns River Water Management District is looking at inlets and pump stations to improve the flushing of the lagoon and has been for quite a while now. The 1/2 cent sales tax plan talks about it even though its not actually part of the plan. From what I can tell they are taking it seriously. Multiple studies looking at different options to understand what will work. I believe they are now looking into the water flow vs salinity issue. This is a long-term project in the early stages so it may not look like much is happening yet. With the needed studies, acquiring land, permitting and construction this will take quite a long time to happen.
  • whole lot of lovewhole lot of love Posts: 47 Greenhorn
    saw quite a few people using the polluted resource up here on the beeline causeway. signs need to be posted "possible high bacteria". staph infections? also look for cases of vibrio to increase. it already has. http://outbreaknewstoday.com/vibrio-cases-jump-33-florida-74203/
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 18,786 AG
    It seems as if no one is willing to seriously look at an inlet,

    They have looked at it...and did some preliminary studies...and have one member of the Lagoon council who support the idea...

    But, as most in the science community have said....It is one of those things that could do way more harm than good to *AN ESTURINE ENVIRONMENT*

    Try not to think "quick fix"..." Magic bullet" ...etc....the real answers are long term and expensive...
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • DayzGonByeDayzGonBye Posts: 80 Greenhorn
    JohninFl wrote: »
    I currently serve as the (volunteer) President of the Florida Sport Fishing Assoc in east central Fl. I am also a volunteer member of the Lagoon Oversight Committee.
    Everyone has legitimate frustration over the recent breakdowns in pumping stations and inability of the County's antiquated sewage treatment system to handle the extreme volumes of water, resulting in numerous flows of sewage in our rivers. It should be understood the voter approved Save the Lagoon plan is not an infrastructure project, though it does include removal of some septic systems. The entire plan and modifications made early this year is public record and on line. Our monthly meetings are open to the public and video recorded so that people can view (if they can't attend the meetings).
    The statement "the tax money has been diverted" is simply false. Each month we Advisory members are given a printout of revenues, actual expenses and forecasts. This is also published prior to each meeting on the web. The plan was written to be funded by property tax (the first $ to begin being collected in Nov and the first projects in 2018). As the voters made the funding a sales tax, collection begun in Jan and the first distribution to the County was late March. That's why the Advisory Board approved approximately 43 projects that could begin quickly (we call this year zero). The funds are sitting in an interest bearing account..the tax money is paid to Cities AFTER their project is completed as reimbursement. In part that's why so little has been spent, but none has been "diverted".
    The plan is pretty solid and based on best available science, (and I don't use term "science" like the SAFMC does with Red Snapper :). It does not however address the causes of the horrible sewage spills we have seen this month.
    I'll be happy to try and answer, find an expert with answers and share anglers concerns during public meetings.
    Respectfully
    John Durkee

    Thank you John for your service. All these complainers don't want to pay to convert to advanced onsite waste water treatment, they don't want double the taxes, they don't want a sales tax, they don't want anything that effects their bottom line but they call the politicians "idiots" and accuse the politicians of creating this problem. LOOK IN THE DANG MIRROR FOLKS, IF YOU TOOK A CRAP, YOURE PART OF THE PROBLEM. Blame whoever you want but, YOU are the ones who don't maintain your septic, who balk at any increase in utility fees, who vote for the politicians that you are blaming. If you aren't one of the people that votes for the current elected officials than your neighbors or friends do. They had to get there somehow.

    Until there is a overwhelming consensus of citizens that are willing to alter their culture and "PAY" to convert aging infrastructure than this is what you are going to get.
  • saltybumsaltybum Posts: 1,565 Captain
    Over 20 years ago Florida Today had a special section in the newspaper that addressed a very serious problem with the lagoon as well as the dredging in the port and dumping that muck about 2 miles offshore right in front of Coca Beach ( home of the only brown waves in Florida ). Our county politicians knew we had a SERIOUS problem then and did NOTHING.

    More people, more uncontrolled building and less attention to the aquifers and Florida's sensitive ecosystem has resulted in a disgusting state of our local waters and I very seriously doubt much will actually be done to correct it. I'm just glad I'm getting old and got to enjoy Florida for the last 60+ years with the last 37 here in Brevard. I left Orlando after I got out the Army because the Disney crap had and is still ruining central Fl.
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    Over 40 years ago, it was recognized that diking and draining swampy areas using canals to dump the fresh water directly into the lagoon was causing big swings in salinity in the lagoon impacting fish and wildlife. Over $250 million of our tax dollars were put to use buying up farmland and restoring the natural water flow to reflood marshland and let it filter water and release it slowly into the upper St. Johns river. Last year the project was completed and some major canals no longer dump fresh water into the lagoon. If you look at the history of waste water treatment plants over the last couple of decades there have been government mandated upgrades that have considerably cleaned up what they end up dumping into the lagoon. We use the wastewater (reclaimed water) for irrigation in many areas now so it doesn't go into the lagoon. There have been a lot of stormwater filtering projects going on - our 1/2 cent sales tax has provided money for some that were planned and not funded. Projects like that have been happening for a long time. The sales tax is accelerating them.

    It may feel like nothing has been getting done as its not as visible as the growth we see around us and declining lagoon health despite efforts - you can't fix many decades of problems quickly. We shouldn't give up and throw in the towel. We need to keep supporting things like our sales tax increase, people like John who is making sure it does its job and supporting organizations that will keep pressure on our government to do more.
  • ChadChad Satellite Beach, FLPosts: 132 Deckhand
    Can someone educate me - dwellings on city sewage - the pipes that flow from our homes and buildings for sewage ultimately get plumbed to the water treatment plant. The storm water drains flow to the lagoon, retention ponds and various places. My simple mind would think the 2 are isolated. Kind of like if you had a gray water holding tank and a black water holding tank, flushing my toilet 100 times doesn't affect my gray water volume. So how does rain water affect/increase the volume of sewage going to the plant from flushing our toilets?

    Also - we are living in 2017. We know all our past mistakes hands down. No one can claim ignorance and not knowing any better on these environmental debacles any longer. Building on the beach, too close to the beach, straightening rivers, building dams, dumping sand on the beach on and on.........yet we, no THEY continue doing it!! So egregious!!

    How can our infrastructure be failing so badly that we're dumping sewage into the Indian River Lagoon that we just had voted in a TAX INCREASE to clean up and there's 24,000 building permits applied for in Brevard County getting approved as fast as they can get thru them. So maddening.
  • TeejTeej Posts: 146 Deckhand
    Chad wrote: »
    Can someone educate me - dwellings on city sewage - the pipes that flow from our homes and buildings for sewage ultimately get plumbed to the water treatment plant. The storm water drains flow to the lagoon, retention ponds and various places. My simple mind would think the 2 are isolated. Kind of like if you had a gray water holding tank and a black water holding tank, flushing my toilet 100 times doesn't affect my gray water volume. So how does rain water affect/increase the volume of sewage going to the plant from flushing our toilets?

    Also - we are living in 2017. We know all our past mistakes hands down. No one can claim ignorance and not knowing any better on these environmental debacles any longer. Building on the beach, too close to the beach, straightening rivers, building dams, dumping sand on the beach on and on.........yet we, no THEY continue doing it!! So egregious!!

    How can our infrastructure be failing so badly that we're dumping sewage into the Indian River Lagoon that we just had voted in a TAX INCREASE to clean up and there's 24,000 building permits applied for in Brevard County getting approved as fast as they can get thru them. So maddening.

    As I understand, the stormwater system does not go to the river, some does go to retention. As memory serves, the collection of stormwater and then discharge of it becomes a "point source" that must meet pollution standards and if it cannot it must be treated. Since anyone can pour anything down a storm drai, grass clippings are also a biggee and road drainage in particular can push storm water below pollution (nutrient level) standards (why some areas like expressways push that particular water to retention).

    If I understood Virginia Barker with Brevard County Natural Resources, the treatment plants could be retrofitted to (either treat or bypass
    - not 100% clear) handle the high volume stormwater events so high nutrient sewage can be held and appropriately treated.

    Again, not 100% sure on this so hope someone with more expertise chimes in.
  • ChadChad Satellite Beach, FLPosts: 132 Deckhand
    Ok thanks for the info. Would like to understand fully as the storm drains definetly lead right to the lagoon. Atleast many of them. The old ones had tags with pictures of snook "this leads to IRL" plus theres drain locations you can watch flow right in after a good rain. Again just trying to understand how rain affects the levels of sewage volume containment. Seems like they would/should be seperate systems.
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    New stormwater systems I believe are as Teej describes but Chad is right there are lots of older stormwater systems that go direct to the river. There is a stormwater pipe that pokes through my seawall into the canal that drains my whole neighborhood with no retention pond When the water is high the canal back ups out of the storm drains and floods the older sections of the street. There is a lot of retrofitting older stormwater systems to add filtering out of nutrients in the 1/2 cent sales tax project list but that looks like just for the bigger systems that drain large areas.

    As for how rainwater gets into the sewer system, I would also like to hear from the experts on what the issue is here. In other places I have lived there has been 2 problems. First, the smaller problem, is rain collecting in the open treatment ponds. 10 inches of rain into a open pond raises it 10 inches so that's not insignificant. Second is people illegally connecting surface water drains to their sewer pipes. Their driveway floods and they don't want to tear uop their driveway, patio, etc. and install proper drainage. So instead they put in a drain connected to the sewer - cheap and easy and really sucks for the wastewater plant. In Seattle they regularly smoke test the sewers looking for illegal drains. Unfortunately, that's teaching people to put plumbing traps in their drains. With the poor drainage of a lot of properties around here it wouldn't surprise me if this was a big problem here.
  • ChadChad Satellite Beach, FLPosts: 132 Deckhand
    This problem isnt new. Its hard to believe in 2017 we still do not have any better contingency plan than to pump sewage into our lagoon. How long has this been known and going on (years)? How much taxes have been collected (we really dont want that number)? Yet, no contingency plan like an emergency container that is left empty and only used for these infrequent but inevitable scenarios?? Too simple????

    Maybe Brevard county can throw some more of our $$ at a "study" to determine why there's algae blooms and brown tide in the river!!!!! Wouldn't surprise me......
  • TeejTeej Posts: 146 Deckhand
    That was discussed earlier in this thread.
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    Chad wrote: »
    This problem isnt new. Its hard to believe in 2017 we still do not have any better contingency plan than to pump sewage into our lagoon. How long has this been known and going on (years)? How much taxes have been collected (we really dont want that number)? Yet, no contingency plan like an emergency container that is left empty and only used for these infrequent but inevitable scenarios?? Too simple????

    That kind of planning has been happening. Some waste water plants have been or are in the process of being upgraded for more capacity. Some plants have no more space to put a spare tank / pond and new plants are being built. Acquiring land and fighting "not in my back yard" to get a new plant built is both expensive and time consuming. We're talking around $30-40 million for a new plant.

    http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2017/9/28/irma_brevard_beach_s.html
    http://spacecoastdaily.com/2017/04/42m-expansion-project-underway-at-south-central-regional-wastewater-treatment-facility-in-viera/

    According to one of the articles it appears some of the storm water into the sewers is also old broken sewer pipes. Fixing 50 year old infrastructure is also costing a whole lot of money right now but its also happening.
  • Explanation of above questions is pretty simple.

    If your Waste Water tank overfills, it run down the air vent on the side of your boat.


    When the municipal sewer system overloads, raw sewage is dumped. It has to go somewhere and we don't have infinite volume storage systems. If the system is connected to an Ocean Outfall, raw sewage is dumped into the ocean.

    One interesting fact for you South guys. Ft. Lauderdale never had an Ocean Outfall. The outfall dumped into the ICW right under the 17th Street causeway bridge!
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,824 Admiral
    best way to solve the problem is for all you transplanst to move back to whatever **** hole you came from, then bulldoze your mobile home parks and use the land for spray fields for us righteous Southerners.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • DayzGonByeDayzGonBye Posts: 80 Greenhorn
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    best way to solve the problem is for all you transplanst to move back to whatever **** hole you came from, then bulldoze your mobile home parks and use the land for spray fields for us righteous Southerners.

    Lots of truth to this. Maybe not the way I would have said it but there is no doubt that a good portion of the migration to the Deep South has been fueled by people in northern states that have come here for the weather and "LOW" tax structure. These new age carpet baggers continuously fail to support the system that they now live in, but have no qualms about the state of the coastal ecosystems because they don't use the resource like sportsmen do.
  • HUNTINTHEWILDHUNTINTHEWILD Posts: 138 Deckhand
    Law of Diminishing Returns applies here. We can no longer dump enough money and time into saving the environment where we would start making a positive impact. Take lots of pictures and right down your experiences that's the only way people twenty to thirty years from now will know about it.

    More people = Less Flora and Fauna....Florida is getting a lot more people
  • TeejTeej Posts: 146 Deckhand
    The facts just don't back that kind of talk up. If managed correctly, annual fiscal resources provided and stay the course... pays off BIG TIME, even in highly populated areas.

    Tampa Bay sea grass beds herald environmental recovery

    Published: May 14, 2015Updated: May 15, 2015 at 07:10 AM
    Tampa Bay’s sea grass beds, a critical component of a healthy estuary, have rebounded to such a remarkable degree that their health is as robust as it was 60 years ago, water resource scientists and environmentalists say.

    The acreage of beds has not only met a goal set in the 1990s, but exceeds it by more than 2,000 acres.

    The dramatic increase in sea grass and an improvement in water quality over the past couple of decades is being watched by others across the nation, said Peter Clark, CEO of Tampa Bay Watch and board chairman of Restore America’s Estuaries, an organization of environmentalists from as far away as Connecticut, Rhode Island and California.

    “Other bay managers are truly impressed with the progress we were able to achieve in Tampa Bay,” Clark said. “They all have problems, but the solutions just need to be implemented. It costs money and takes time, but you’ve got to take the first step.”

    In Tampa, the first step was more than 20 years ago when the goals were set, he said.

    “I can’t think of another estuary around the county, if not the world, where we’ve seen such a dramatic improvement of water quality,” Clark said.

    The secret is getting the cooperation of government and the support of residents in stemming pollution and runoff of nutrients, he said...

    For Full Story
    http://www.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/tampa-bay-sea-grass-beds-herald-environmental-recovery-20150514/
  • HUNTINTHEWILDHUNTINTHEWILD Posts: 138 Deckhand
    Apples and Oranges.

    Tampa Bay has tidal flow, our lagoon, not so much. I don't disagree that a lot of the things that were done in Tampa Bay would have a small impact on our lagoon, but we cannot keep up to the truck loads of people dumping waste everywhere.

    I fish off of Pineda in the Banana River once in awhile. I saw some nice people clean in up once, and the low life trash that consumes this area had littered it up in a matter of a week!

    With that, I would say Tampa is more progressive as well.

    So to sum up that soap box. No tidal flow, low education, a ton of baby boomers moving in, and lack of oversight will ultimately outweigh any amount of time and money people would be willing to give up. Hence, Law of Diminishing Returns.
  • TeejTeej Posts: 146 Deckhand
    Chad wrote: »
    Ok thanks for the info. Would like to understand fully as the storm drains definetly lead right to the lagoon. Atleast many of them. The old ones had tags with pictures of snook "this leads to IRL" plus theres drain locations you can watch flow right in after a good rain. Again just trying to understand how rain affects the levels of sewage volume containment. Seems like they would/should be seperate systems.

    Circling back to this, here's a bit from some web searching.

    First, a quick search on why (in general, not specific to Brevard) sewage gets dumped in high volume rain events:
    Infiltration/inflow
    Approximately one-quarter of United States SSOs occur during heavy rainfall events, which can cause inflow of stormwater into sanitary sewers through damage, improper connections, or flooding buildings and lift stations in low-lying areas of the collection system. The combined flow of sewage and stormwater exceeds the capacity of the sanitary sewer system and sewage is released into homes, businesses and streets.[2]:p. 4–26 This circumstance is most prevalent in older cities whose subsurface infrastructure is quite old; Paris, London, Stockholm,[8] New York City, Washington, DC, and Oakland, California[9] are typical examples of such locations. Inflow into the sanitary lines can be caused by tree root rupture of subsurface lines or by mechanical fracture due to age and overpressure from trucks and buildings.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitary_sewer_overflow
    [Emphasis added for relation to FS Forum Post]

    Second, these are screen shots from the original "Save Our Indian River Lagoon Project Plan" July 2016 showing that the sewage spill from the Indian Harbour Beach lift station reported on WESH news (what started this thread) is in a "low-lying" area.


    Full Report 2016: http://loveourlagoon.com/BCsave-our-lagoon-project-plan_final.pdf

    The 2016 report and the 2017 Supplemental are worth at least skimming. The base logic (IMO) to the reports is correlating what reduction of nitrogen loading do you get per dollar spent - the reports then look at stormwater, sewage, muck removal, etc...
    Supplemental Report:
    http://www.brevardfl.gov/docs/default-source/save-our-lagoon-documents/save-our-indian-river-lagoon-project-plan-2017-supplement.pdf?sfvrsn=2

    Conclusion (again, IMO) - the sewage lift station at Indian Harbour Beach is susceptible to overflows in high volume rain events because water pools in the low lying area and infilitrates the sewage system through manhole covers and other illegal connections to the system. This can be addressed YET it becomes a decision on how much to spend and what reduction in nitrogen do you get. Complicating that calculation is the inability to predict how often this type of nitrogen loading will happen (do you estimate an event like this...every year? - 5years? - decade?)

    Hope this is helpful
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 18,786 AG
    DayzGonBye wrote: »
    These new age carpet baggers


    Dang Yankee carpet baggers....:rotflmao
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
  • Net 30Net 30 Posts: 969 Officer
    duckmanJR wrote: »
    Dang Yankee carpet baggers....:rotflmao

    I agree Joe. Round these parts, nearly everything can be blamed on either Obama or all those **** Yankees....:rolleyes
  • TeejTeej Posts: 146 Deckhand
    Net 30 wrote: »
    I agree Joe. Round these parts, nearly everything can be blamed on either Obama or all those **** Yankees....:rolleyes
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    LOL, I've never lived anywhere where all the local problems weren't blamed on the recent transplants. And recent always seems to vary depending on how long ago the complainer moved to the area. I was guilty of complaining about all the transplants giving Californians a bad name when I grew up there.

    I may be a transplant to Florida but I married into a large Florida family that goes back several generations here. There are those that care and those that will do anything for a dollar in that family. There are those that can't understand why I would ever let a fish go after I caught it (which is nearly every fish I catch). Even when I point out that the fish was outside of the legal limit pretty far I get the answer from some in the family - "Who will know?" - they actually think I'm nuts. Others understand only keeping the occasional legal fish and the need to let the big girls go to make minnows. The point being there are good "natives" and bad "natives" just like there are good yanks and bad yanks. Blaming one group or another won't help our lagoon.
  • saltybumsaltybum Posts: 1,565 Captain
    Yep, then them dang Yankees get involved with local politics and do it the same way they drive...slow and in the left hand lanes.
    I'm just glad that the St. Johns has (for the time being) has contained the Orlando spread to the east.
  • straygeckostraygecko Cocoa BeachPosts: 66 Greenhorn
    Apples and Oranges.

    Tampa Bay has tidal flow, our lagoon, not so much. I don't disagree that a lot of the things that were done in Tampa Bay would have a small impact on our lagoon, but we cannot keep up to the truck loads of people dumping waste everywhere.

    I fish off of Pineda in the Banana River once in awhile. I saw some nice people clean in up once, and the low life trash that consumes this area had littered it up in a matter of a week!

    With that, I would say Tampa is more progressive as well.

    So to sum up that soap box. No tidal flow, low education, a ton of baby boomers moving in, and lack of oversight will ultimately outweigh any amount of time and money people would be willing to give up. Hence, Law of Diminishing Returns.

    Apples and Oranges - yes and no. No question we have a harder job than Tampa. But Tampa is just one example of waterway restoration. Other waterways with varying problems across the country have some success stories including large toxic waste issues. I think the point is if we make it a priority like Tampa we can solve the problems. Your point about Tampa being more progressive is a good one. That is something that typically comes with a big city and our lagoon is spread out along a fairly low population density area. Tends not to be progressive and makes it harder to gather the number of taxpayers needed to make politicians pay attention at the state level. Florida population growth is being driven as much or more by job growth as it is by retirees. But baby boomer influx might actually help in that they tend to vote more than younger people and they came here to enjoy the wonderful Florida fishing. If a lot of younger people come for the jobs I see a resurgence of some of the 70's desire to clean things up in younger people so that may not be bad either. If our 1/2 cent sales tax shows its worth we might be able to parlay that into more money to move things along quicker. Remember the lagoon next time you go to vote.
  • DayzGonByeDayzGonBye Posts: 80 Greenhorn
    Net 30 wrote: »
    I agree Joe. Round these parts, nearly everything can be blamed on either Obama or all those **** Yankees....:rolleyes

    Well... Let's think about it. You can take the term "carpet bagger" as derogatory but the truth is a large portion of people moving to Florida are coming from the "north" since logistically we are the most southern state in the continental U.S. A large portion of the those people are retirees or on fixed incomes who don't usually contribute to the tax base like working citizens (just a fact based on income and spending). Yet, these fixed income people who are admittedly a large part of the economy put the same amount of stress on the system. Storm water, waste water, and ground water are the issues. If you live in a house, take a poop, and drive a car you are part of the the problem. Unfortunately not many people actively engage in solutions. Since the scale of the issue is so large at this point one of the few ways to work on solutions is to support "root cause" improvements to the system. Again not many people new to Florida and on fixed incomes are interested in "fixing" issues they perceive they did not create. Call it what you want to (carpet bagging) but national migration has put an intense stress on our systems and most of it is caused by the "population" exceeding the capability of the infrastructure.

    The lagoon tax is a good thing. It is a progressive type of tax and it is shared by people who don't even live here, which is a win for the locals. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your point of view the county does NOT have jurisdiction over the folks who supply your potable water and who are responsible for up your waste water i.e. (City of Cocoa, Melbourne Tillman, etc.) They also don't have supreme jurisdiction over surface water and storm water, that would be the South Florida and SJR water management districts as well as DOT and ACOE. So they do what they can and dredge the legacy muck from the system. Personally I'd like them to focus more on root causes but again much of that is not in their purview.

    So back to the OP, who is banging on the county for doing nothing. Lets recap, WMD's, ACOE, and municipalities govern about 90% of how water is managed and its effect on the lagoon, yet the county is tasked with cleaning up that mess and somehow we rail on them for not doing more. Try not to get your panties in a wad you Yankee transplants.
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