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Cavanaugh68
Posts: 539 Officer
Comments for Closing Commercial Fishing on the Mosquito Lagoon MINWR
Cavanaugh68
Posts: 539 Officer
I know a lot of people on here like to catch sea trout and black drum here on the Mosquito Lagoon inside the Merritt Island National Wildlife refuge and CNSS. We also all know how the fishing has been out here over the past few years. Up and down the whole east coast in this area. Not what it used to be ten or twenty years ago for sure.
So back in 2008 the USFWS and the MINWR said they were phasing out Commercial Fishing on the refuge and national park in Sept. of 2018. So here we are ten years later and they now want to get comments on keeping or allowing this program to continue here on these waters. Until the year 2028. Ten more years of this.
You have until Sept. 8th, 2017 to submit your comments over this to the USFWS and Refuge at:
[email protected]
I have attached the file too.
I personally think this should end today. I mean they can keep up to 150 trout per day "at times" and 500 pounds of drum a day. Let alone running around with the throw-able gill nets, derelict crab traps you need to avoid, navigating the gauntlet of trap buoys in the dark and so on.
I like to eat and keep a fish here and there like many. But this body of water is unique and should be looked at carefully. FWC lumps all the stats for the state into one pile when making decisions and limits. When they need to look at zones and then set things.
However on these particular waters I do practice catch and release, personally and for my clients. I also to be clear are not against commercial fishing or fishermen. Just not inside a national park or especially a wild life refuge should commercial harvest be permitted. I also think all of the guides on the lagoon should be forced to do catch and release as well. I think this would set and lead a good example.
So please pass this around and submit your comments and thoughts. Thank You.
https://www.facebook.com/MerrittIslandNWR/photos/pcb.1534119779941748/1534119526608440/?type=3&theater
So back in 2008 the USFWS and the MINWR said they were phasing out Commercial Fishing on the refuge and national park in Sept. of 2018. So here we are ten years later and they now want to get comments on keeping or allowing this program to continue here on these waters. Until the year 2028. Ten more years of this.
You have until Sept. 8th, 2017 to submit your comments over this to the USFWS and Refuge at:
[email protected]
I have attached the file too.
I personally think this should end today. I mean they can keep up to 150 trout per day "at times" and 500 pounds of drum a day. Let alone running around with the throw-able gill nets, derelict crab traps you need to avoid, navigating the gauntlet of trap buoys in the dark and so on.
I like to eat and keep a fish here and there like many. But this body of water is unique and should be looked at carefully. FWC lumps all the stats for the state into one pile when making decisions and limits. When they need to look at zones and then set things.
However on these particular waters I do practice catch and release, personally and for my clients. I also to be clear are not against commercial fishing or fishermen. Just not inside a national park or especially a wild life refuge should commercial harvest be permitted. I also think all of the guides on the lagoon should be forced to do catch and release as well. I think this would set and lead a good example.
So please pass this around and submit your comments and thoughts. Thank You.
https://www.facebook.com/MerrittIslandNWR/photos/pcb.1534119779941748/1534119526608440/?type=3&theater
Replies
Today Trout fisherman...tomorrow..Guides? After all...should we allow someone to run a business inside our National parks without being a concessionaire?
10K permit....?? Seems fair price to run a biz....
See where this is a rabbit hole..... ??
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
Not even close to the same thing. I fall under the same rules and laws as you do with FWC and Florida. Limits and tactics. So then what about the businesses like photographers inside the refuge? A painter who paints a sunset then sells it at a fair? Tour guides? Kayak rentals? Manatee tours? Bird watching tours? So on? What is the economic impact of that, just stopping all biz in here? There is a big difference in "each" business and what they offer and do, how they do it. Some leave no impact, some do. Some bring a huge economic positive impact to the area. Those are businesses too, that with your thought should go away then, with that rabbit hole?
Also if they said no more fishing guides out here then so be it. I am 100% good with that. There are other waters to fish. I am talking now about how these fish are going away and not as good as it used to be, and commercial fishing does not help. Again inside the park and refuge. Not on state waters. Federal. And if they did do that, then that would most likely say no more fishing for any one at all. Including you.
That is the whole point of the post. There is no difference between you going out with a friend and catching 5 fish and me taking a client out to fish and catching 5 fish. You and I both have the same laws to follow. Other than most likely my client has spent money on a hotel, rented a car, paid me, bought gas, ate at a restaurant, paid for airfare, possibly done other things in the area and so on. If the park said your permit now cost $1000(within reason, not $10000. That is like saying it now cost you $100 a day to launch your boat at the ramp) a year, then I would say yes. Along as they enforce all of the illegal pirate guides doing it out here without a permit. Which they do not, at all.
Getting off subject here. You out of all people just posted in another thread not long ago how the trout are going away and not like they use to be. I am talking about how much of an impact the commercial harvest program has on the refuge and Mosquito Lagoon. I have watched in a few days schools of 5000 black drum just go away when word gets out to where they were to the commercial anglers. That same school would take 1000 recreational anglers to kill them in one day the way the law reads.
Listen I just wanted people to see what the USFWS is looking at doing and what this means for the future of the Mosquito Lagoon and surrounding waters for recreation fishing.
Saltwater Fishing Videos
Also a note on businesses inside a national park/refuge. Any of them in our nation. I like to follow the theory of if you have a business that leaves no trace or has no negative impact (again, within reason), then that is ok to do. Now yes, the park should limit the number of businesses they allow on the property, which they do. They have capped the refuge guide list now and are no longer allowing new ones to get permits. So if you are not on there now you do not get on there, unless someone drops off the list. Here is the current 2017 list if any one is curious to see who is allowed to guide on the Mosquito Lagoon:
https://www.fws.gov/uploadedFiles/PermitedFishingGuides2017.pdf
Here is a letter that someone sent to the MINWR about their feelings of the commercial fishery. This is the kind of economic impact that I am talking about. There are a lot of businesses taht can have this exact same positive impact here, not just fishing guides. If this were to cease, well then bye bye to all. Florida is tourism, fact.
TO: US Fish and Wildlife Service
I am a sport fisherman and professional software engineer living in New York, NY. I stand opposed to commercial harvest in Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge and Canaveral National Seashore. I am not a resident of Florida, rather, I am a tourist. One of the primary reasons that I visit Florida, flying into the Orlando area, is for sport fishing. I spend roughly $12,000-$14,000 annually on lodging, rental cars and professional fishing guides in order to fish Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge and Canaveral National Seashore as well as enjoy Florida beaches.
The primary reason that I choose Florida is because of its active preservation of wildlife. Allowing any commercial harvest in Florida stands in opposition to tourist activity in Florida. Specifically, allowing commercial harvest in Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge and Canaveral National Seashore would undermine the tourism fishing industry of Florida.
Please stop all commercial harvest in Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge and Canaveral National Seashore.
Thanks
Greg T.
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That's harvest and doesn't include the by kill from improper handling.
You fill the statewide commercial catch in 5.8 days.
And you want more?
Back when the fuge was established the commercial fishermen were promised access in perpetuity.. Get that?
We have the documents from that time and any loss of access will result in litigation.
Oh, if a tourist eats fresh caught local seafood what category does that economic impact fall under?
Also I guess we will see about the litigation. If not I guess the next best thing to do is just to make seatrout, black drum and others a gamefish and that would solve this all together.
Bottom line is send your comments into the email address above.
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So have thousands of local recreational anglers and people that have an interest in "sport" fishing here. And yes we have heard about paperwork from a time and a land long ago. But this is now and things change so we will see what happens there. Like I said, should that happen then a massive push to make trout and drum a game fish will simply solve that with no issues what so ever.
Also where do you get that number? The 8,400 " sportie" (as you like to call us) harvest in 5.8 days?
Because I find it almost impossible for your or any one to really know how much trout or black drum a rec angler catches and then "harvests" in a day in Florida. We do not have to report catch logs or tell anyone.
That is at best a guess of a figure. With a margin of error +/- 99%
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Those numbers are highly suspect. Remember they took one interaction with a Dusky shark and said the recs catch 3500 in a three year period ignoring the fact that Dusky is a prohibited species.
We can count comms better since they have records, but most recreational catches are overly exaggerated in my opinion..
( and you know I have been involved as long as you have!)
I think my doubt with that number comes from the size of a trout. Most keepers are what 2 lbs? If that. Hitting that number would require people keeping well over 3,000 trout a day in the state of Florida. That is a ridiculous amount of trout.
3,000 trout a day over 365 days a year.... that is 1,095,000 trout kept in the state of Florida per year... yeah bull****.
"Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
If that's the case then why bother with stock assessments/AP's or any rules at all.
Ron, I believe that FWC has a far better handle on state waters than the feds do outside of them.
Rec catch on trout is fairly consistent @ 3 mp/year and make up 98% of the total harvest.
Yeah, let's make rules based on emotion like the bear hunt debacle.
Non sequitur. Nobody has made that claim, the validity/accuracy of the 8,400 lb. of trout a day is being called into question. Your retort that we don't believe in science driven management is deflection and/or moving goal post at best. The short version is you are fighting an argument nobody made. I would personally like to see in detail how that number was derived. I searched via Google and was not able to collaborate your stated value. By all means point me in the right direction.
Edit
And for the purpose of clarity, I get FWC's workshop on speckled trout listed the harvest at over ~3,000,000 lbs a year, which equates to ~8,400 lbs a day. My question/curiosity (and likely others as well) isn't the basic math being presented. But the deeper dive on where the 3,000,000 lbs a year estimate came from.
I noted that the FWC's presentation has absolute no references for their 3,000,000 lbs. a year estimate which I find bothersome. I was taught in graduate school that facts are not presented without references. My publications have dozens upon dozens of references. Anytime I see 'facts' being presented, especially online, without references... my knee jerk reaction skepticism. But to be fair, their numbers could be accurate. I can't say in either direction, because I cannot find a detailed explanation via a protocol on how those numbers where tabulated. Again, by all means point me (us) in the right direction.
"Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/stock-assessments/finfish/snook-2015/
I'm sure that if you contacted FWRI they would be happy to explain their procedures..
but you won't.
You are *SAYING* in is not the same thing...because you...have a vested interest. It is EXACTLY the same...
YOU....are running a business inside a National wildlife refuge... YOU are deriving INCOME from said use...
The fact is that they have many rules for all different stakeholder groups... I pay dearly for the opportunity...to APPLY to get a permit...to use the NWR for less than 6 hours...and pay $25 for that!...If I can get one.
Photographers = Free
Birders = Free
Hikers / bikers = Free
Rec Crabbers / fisherman = Free
Hunters...Oh heck no buddy...you are going to pay ...plenty!
So, while I understand your position...my "rabbit hole" analogy is to point out that ANY user group can (and will) point a finger and say " What about him? "
So really, what I am saying is...be careful...the slope can get slippery...
For the record....I think *EVERYONE who enters...should pay something.... because the infrastructure for that birders Prius..is the same for my pick up truck.
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
I went to 2 of them...just so I could make sure I got my points across...
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
OK, I am pretty sure they just lump the entire state into one giant statistic. So I am part of a survey program with FWC. Each week, or so they will call me. They will ask me these questions:
1) Where did I launch at?
2) How Long did I fish for?
3) How many people did I take out?
That is it. So they are "assuming" that say 3 people with me, I launched at Beacon 42 I must have kept 12 trout, 3 redfish, 15 black drum. Then at times you will see a random surveyor standing at River Breeze or somewhere asking the same thing to people as they come back. So it is all up to the people being 100% honest and accurate.
Just like these BS catch logs we have to fill out each month for the USFWS/CNSS/MINWR. They can easily be "skewed" if someone wanted too. If they were that serious about finding out facts on exactly what is being harvested on the Mosquito Lagoon then they would be asking every single angler to do a catch log monthly out here. Just asking the guides is a joke. Because every single guide I work with, share charters with, fish with are 100% catch and release in the refuge. But the refuge management takes there orders from FWC on what the stats are, and FWC says on the Mosquito Lagoon there are more fish than ever out there.
But the way they acquire the info from us is broad and so much error involved.
Personally a fairly easy way with FWC is this. This will at least get a closer idea. Why not sell two types of fishing licenses in Florida. One for possession of species and one for non possession of species. Same cost, so no cost for the public or tax payers. Then have everyone over 65 and under 16 that are not required to have a fishing license register online whether or not they are non or keep.
They then could say: "Ok last year in Florida 300,000 possession licensees were sold and 253,000 non possession were sold".... For example. Then you have some kind of true data on paper. Because if I had the non keep license I would not be keeping a fish at risk of a ticket. So would most others, be honest.
However after that still how do you prove that those possession anglers caught their limit, and what species or even wanted to keep fish on certain days. Let alone how many days they actually fish a year.
I talk to the FWC survey people all the time and the way they do it just allows for way too much error.
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Like I said we shall see about that. Until it goes through litigation and what the program will be stopped while it is held up in court for a decade. Again, next step is to make those a game fish. The refuge has the power to do what they want under the national parks provision. I want to see at the end of this two week comment period what was said and how many it was.
Saltwater Fishing Videos
Presumptuous on your part. I'll contact them this week. The fact remains there is a lot of published numbers, most of which have no references. That isn't how science is done.
"Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
The whole thing is interesting. I just question, or at least wonder, about the quality of their numbers. I for one have fished god knows how many hours... I have never once been surveyed, which means there is a bunch of extrapolation happening. Which works if the original data set is representative on the true mean. In this case I would wager a guess it is not. Three questions and only to guides... and that means they know how many trout are being kept.... by everybody? That makes no sense to me. Add the cherry on top that they don't publish any sort of reference or protocol on how the numbers are obtained. Just a bunch of questions spinning around, at least in my head.
"Soul of the mind, key to life's ether. Soul of the lost, withdrawn from its vessel. Let strength be granted, so the world might be mended. So the world might be mended."
You are wrong, there is a fee for every one who enters here. Now commercial users pay different. I pay over $2000 a year between my permit and all of my federal requirements to be out here. So does every other guide. You can get a year permit for $15! And I am one of those that at least pay to play. I can list 10 guides right now that have all over their website the "Mosquito Lagoon" and do not have a CUA. yet they still fish here. Because they know they will not get caught, so why bother to get one.
I did a Showtime camera boat a few months ago and they were on the water for 3 hours and paid over $1500 for their stuff and permits with CNSS. They did it by the book. Sure other camera crews just do it and do not get caught. The filming is just one example of a business out here.
Birders pay the same
Hikers pay the same
Crabbers pay the same
photographers pay the same
Fishermen pay the same
Here is from their site, for just filming. Call them and say you want to do a tour boat, take people bird watching and ask what they need from you. Plan on about $2000 a year for the permit, along with insurances. So they all pay:
Commercial Photography & Filming Permits
The beauty of the pristine beaches within Canaveral National Seashore has provided location for a variety of films, commercials, and print advertisements.
If you are planning to do any filming or photography involving talent, products or props in front of a camera, you will need to obtain a filming permit. All permit applications are reviewed on a case-by-case basis, and will not normally be issued for areas of high visitation or on weekends. Please contact (321) 267-1110 for further information and location fees.
Short Form Commercial Filming Application
Long Form Commercial Filming Application
• Insurance Liability Requirements: $300,000 minimum. Larger scale productions (cast, crew, equipment) typically require liability insurance in the amount of $1,000,000.
U.S. Federal Government must be listed as ADDITIONAL
INSURED on liability policy.
Saltwater Fishing Videos
I agree with you so much. I am never asked how many I keep, never. If any at all. Or what exact species. Next time I get surveyed I am going to ask them exactly how it works.
I see the survey lady at River Breeze now and then but I think they are chosen to go to places with a lotto system. Just like when they call me. A few weeks will go by, nothing. Then week after week I get a call that says I have been chosen for the FWC catch survey.
Saltwater Fishing Videos
I agree with you so much. I am never asked how many I keep, never. If any at all. Or what exact species. Next time I get surveyed I am going to ask them exactly how it works.
I see the survey lady at River Breeze now and then but I think they are chosen to go to places with a lotto system. Just like when they call me. A few weeks will go by, nothing. Then week after week I get a call that says I have been chosen for the FWC catch survey.
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You know also I am not guiding on the refuge/park 100% of my charters. More like 30% to 40%. I can go 1 mile down the road and be outside the boundaries. Or off the beaches. Or be in Titusville.
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To me, this sounds very similar to Everglades National Park. My opinion regarding ENP is that they don't want fisherman there.
This area in yellow is what is in question of closing down commercial Harvest. Tiny area in the grand scheme of things. Compared to Tampa Bay or Everglades for example. The area within the red is where I, and most others conduct there charters here.
Saltwater Fishing Videos
What is your point ? ...I feel mine was clear. Are you willing to kick out one "user group"....*AND* get each client to pay an additional $25 fee to fish in there?
User pays...ALL...every one... want access to take a picture? $25 gets you in. Want to fish? ...sure...$25 gets you in... A nice bike ride...OK, That'll be $25 please and Thank you...
or.... We allow those few RS permit holders in...just like you...
*but not like me* ...I still have to pay...*AND* they also cut 20% of the hunt days out this year.
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
*NOT* wrong...100% right. I can get in my car and drive right in...fill out a card at the kiosk (free) and drop in a kayak...bank fish...crab...shoot pictures..hike ..bike ...all FREE
I don't even have to pay the $5 ramp fee if I want to boat...if I have (and do) a Federal duck stamp..
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
A Photographer(commercial or Recreational) leaves no trace. For example.
A kayaker kayaks. Leaves no trace. For example.
A hiker hikes...
A fisherman, well depends on if they remove a species or not. So that is up for grabs.
The commercial harvester does not go in there with a choice to practice catch and release commercially! LOL So they 100% remove and leave an impact.
As far as hunting don't care, don't know anything about it. Not a hunter, have no problem with that.
What does get me and others with the hunting thing is they allow during certain times of the year the hunters to go down all these areas that are marked "closed to public". Then after hunting season they put those signs back up. There are so many trails I would love to hike down for a few months, like they get to to get some great photography shots, just to see things. of course not at the same time as hunting season, but also not in the heat of summer either. So then why are those areas not open for periods for hikers/photographers? You know like all that area say north of the radar unit at b42? Or north of WSEG? They seem to single out hunters and let them go in there.
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I have always said why is there not an entrance fee at Max Brewer and SR 3? Just like when you enter Canaveral. I was told years ago that all these fees were to go to a full time marine patrol unit. Then new management took over and that went bye bye.
So there should be a fee for all or none. Setting commercial use aside, of course.
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Every one REQUIRES the same infrastructure....roads .... bathrooms.
They pay ZERO towards that....
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you