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Here's why we'll never see affordable health care in this country

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  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    I will point out that outcomes in CV health have improved globally as well -- we're hardly the only ones to make use of these breakthroughs.

    I'll have to pick up the book you mentioned. Thanks for sharing.
    cpr wrote: »
    On the other hand I see expensive technology used for elderly and or chronically ill with only the prolonging of death as an end result.

    And that's really a huge part of the issue. Let me see if I can find that graph I saw yesterday that explains it well...
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,309 Admiral
    Menzies wrote: »
    Seriously? You believe that?

    Can you share the data that you have?

    https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/bending-productivity-curve-why-america-leads-world-medical-innovation
    In three of the four general categories of innovation examined in this paper — basic science, diagnostics, and therapeutics — the United States has contributed more than any other country, and in some cases, more than all other countries combined. In the last category, business models, we lack the data to say whether the United States has been more or less innovative than other nations; innovation in this area appears weak across nations.



    https://www.quora.com/What-countries-have-lead-the-world-in-medical-research-and-innovation-in-the-past-20-years

    What countries have lead the world in medical research and innovation in the past 20 years?
    4 Answers
    Christopher VanLang
    Christopher VanLang, I make drugs
    Answered 12 Jan 2015 · Upvoted by Enrique Pareja, Registered physician (GP).
    It's the US. This isn't even up for debate. By pretty much any metric, the US has destroyed the competition when it comes to total impact in medical research and innovation.

    Here are the number of papers and citations produced by the top 20 countries. China is creeping up but anyone can tell you that the data really isn't that good. I've included the top 20 to allow for nay-sayers to point out that Holland and Switzerland technically have higher citations per document.



    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kenneth-thorpe/medical-advancements-who-is-leading_b_807796.html

    the United States leads the world in medical innovation.

    In addition to the best and brightest practicing medicine and state-of-art medical facilities, we have benefited from having the best and, usually, the earliest access to the latest medical technologies and innovations. In large part, this is because they were discovered, developed and produced here in America.


    KMAA
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,309 Admiral
    Tarponator wrote: »

    I see it every day. This week I busted my but keeping a newly diagnosed, terminally ill patient off a vent while the family adjusted to the news she was at deaths door. They made her a, No Code, on day 4, thank God. I really didn't want to intubate her with such a poor prognosis. Lucked out on that one, but most happen so quick there is no time for hte family to think at the moment. The time for talk and decisions is when you are healthy and aware, before you get sick.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • MenziesMenzies Posts: 19,289 AG
    cpr wrote: »
    https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/bending-productivity-curve-why-america-leads-world-medical-innovation
    In three of the four general categories of innovation examined in this paper — basic science, diagnostics, and therapeutics — the United States has contributed more than any other country, and in some cases, more than all other countries combined. In the last category, business models, we lack the data to say whether the United States has been more or less innovative than other nations; innovation in this area appears weak across nations.



    https://www.quora.com/What-countries-have-lead-the-world-in-medical-research-and-innovation-in-the-past-20-years

    What countries have lead the world in medical research and innovation in the past 20 years?
    4 Answers
    Christopher VanLang
    Christopher VanLang, I make drugs
    Answered 12 Jan 2015 · Upvoted by Enrique Pareja, Registered physician (GP).
    It's the US. This isn't even up for debate. By pretty much any metric, the US has destroyed the competition when it comes to total impact in medical research and innovation.

    Here are the number of papers and citations produced by the top 20 countries. China is creeping up but anyone can tell you that the data really isn't that good. I've included the top 20 to allow for nay-sayers to point out that Holland and Switzerland technically have higher citations per document.



    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kenneth-thorpe/medical-advancements-who-is-leading_b_807796.html

    the United States leads the world in medical innovation.

    In addition to the best and brightest practicing medicine and state-of-art medical facilities, we have benefited from having the best and, usually, the earliest access to the latest medical technologies and innovations. In large part, this is because they were discovered, developed and produced here in America.


    KMAA

    You like Thorpe eh?

    Maybe you need to be more selective...

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-himmelstein/kenneth-thorpe-bernie-sanders-single-payer_b_9113192.html
    Maybe if we tell people that the brain is an App, they will start using it.
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,309 Admiral
    What's that have to do with American leading in innovation? You asked the question "Seriously? You believe that?

    Can you share the data that you have?" I answered with a 3 minute google search. And you come back with nonsense. :USA
    :troll

    KMAA
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,309 Admiral
    Realistically, IMO the only fix is for the system to collapse.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    Well, that's rather disturbing.

    p.s. while I'm no fan of Thorpe, in this case (R&D/innovation) he's right and so is CPR...although the spread of medical technology is very quick these days. Think months or a few years rather than a decade like it used to be, so our advantage in this regard is not what it was.
  • tunamantunaman Posts: 3,767 Captain
    Tarponator wrote: »
    I can name 15 of them -- and 12 of them are listed in a table I posted above. Don't believe me? Fine, perhaps you believe this idiot:

    gt2.jpg

    But you're right to point out we lead in cancer care -- and several areas of medicine -- not that it matters as we still die at a younger age on average than most other developed countries.

    And I could not love the free market more. I just don't think it's the best thing for healthcare, where people's lives should come before profit.

    But, hey, if you like paying more for less, please be my guest, but there's no reason to stick your head in the sand and deny reality when it comes to the facts of the matter.
    well if you believed the idiot before him I'll believe this guy!!!
  • Sea-SquatchSea-Squatch Posts: 1,882 Captain
    cpr wrote: »
    The stories I could tell... and it's getting worse. Liver and Gi bleeds in 40 year olds is becoming and epidemic and non compliant diabetics are out of control. (pun intended). OD's from opioids and prescription meds happens daily. Not to mention 40 year old post MI who refuse to quit smoking.:Horse

    This is true, and these people usually have no insurance. They can have regular, and lengthy hospital stays too. The hospital will see very little, or no, money from these patients.



  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    I never realized what a craphole of a worthless country the United States really is! And to think I wasted 22 years of my life defending it. I sincerely apologize for it.
    And I wish that someone would tell all the people who are trying to get here how they are wasting their time , they are just going to die on the streets and in poverty.
    I hear Venezuela is nice this time of year?
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    cpr wrote: »
    Realistically, IMO the only fix is for the system to collapse.

    Bingo!
    And the financial mess too.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    Tarponator wrote: »
    Well, that's rather disturbing.

    p.s. while I'm no fan of Thorpe, in this case (R&D/innovation) he's right and so is CPR...although the spread of medical technology is very quick these days. Think months or a few years rather than a decade like it used to be, so our advantage in this regard is not what it was.

    Bingo. Everyone else is catching up.
    We should focus more on health services (access to care, quality/standardization of care, wellness promotion).
  • Gary SGary S Posts: 2,305 Captain
    All these countries that was listed as better and cheaper medical care, how much do their citizens pay in taxes to pay for it? I don't know what other people pay for insurance but I pay $1400 a month for my wife and I. Both 62.No major illnesses wife has mild high blood pressure and a family history of diabetes. I still take nothing and am pretty healthy. I have friends that moved from south Fla. and their rates went way down.
    The other thing that pisses me off is when you can buy medicine made here cheaper in another country. I don't care what their rules are our rule should be same price here if it's sold cheaper there.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,346 AG
    Tarponator wrote: »
    We don't see doctors nearly as much as you think, compared to other countries that have much better results:

    squires_oecd_exhibit_03.png?la=en

    And nobody is disputing that the USA leads in some areas of healthcare.

    But you cannot escape the facts of the matter:

    US-Population-Health-4.png

    Again, the USA is not anywhere close to the best when it comes to healthcare outcomes despite spending far and away more per captia.

    Why?

    We're too unhealthy as a nation and our healthcare system as too many profit centers.

    All you did was post the cost of healthcare. Life expectancy is more of an indication of a social issue and not a medical problem. We are fat and lazy. Show me graphs of the odds of surviving a first heart attack here and in other countries, show me the life expectancy after diagnosis with cancer. Show me the survival rate of Premature babies. Show me another country where 22 week old Premature babies are surviving at an increasing rate in the U.S..

    We are too unhealthy, by our own choice, not do to worse healthcare. Our medical care is the best you find any place.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,346 AG
    Tarponator wrote: »
    When we pay almost twice as much as other countries and generally speaking have worse results, I'd call that a failure.

    But you're right, no elected official really wants to touch this issue. It's a cash cow for them when it comes to election contributions:

    opioid-lobby-card.png

    We have better results in terms of medical care than anywhere else on the globe. You are confusing a social problem, bad health due to abuses, with medical care.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,346 AG
    Tarponator wrote: »
    Have you experienced healthcare outside the United States?

    He confuses healthcare with medical care. There is no other country you would go for the best medical care you could ever get. Our healthcare is due to our social choices.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,346 AG
    Tarponator wrote: »
    Americans are unhealthier and die earlier than other developed countries.

    that has nothing to do with the quality of medical care. It is a sign of our social choices and lifestyle. Our diet is higher in fats and sugars. We are fatter and lazier than the rest of the developed world. It is a social issue that makes our lifespan shorter, not our medical care.

    I would bet that is we had the same medical care as other countries with no change in our diet or social activities, our lifespan would drop further. Home Depot George would not likely be here posting if he had his heart attack in another country.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • TampaTarpon5TampaTarpon5 Posts: 808 Officer
    cadman wrote: »
    He confuses healthcare with medical care. There is no other country you would go for the best medical care you could ever get. Our healthcare is due to our social choices.

    Ive experienced healthcare in Canada, it was great.
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,346 AG
    Ive experienced healthcare in Canada, it was great.

    How was it better than the medical care you get here? What did you see a doctor for in Canada?

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • King_MeKing_Me Delray Beach, FLPosts: 6,608 Admiral
    Yup, I was in the hospital for over 30 days and the total billed amount was over 470K. I reviewed my claims and saw where the insurance company settled on bills for a fraction of the actual amount billed. Its a racket between hospitals and insurance companies.
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    cadman wrote: »
    All you did was post the cost of healthcare. Life expectancy is more of an indication of a social issue and not a medical problem. We are fat and lazy. Show me graphs of the odds of surviving a first heart attack here and in other countries, show me the life expectancy after diagnosis with cancer. Show me the survival rate of Premature babies. Show me another country where 22 week old Premature babies are surviving at an increasing rate in the U.S..

    We are too unhealthy, by our own choice, not do to worse healthcare. Our medical care is the best you find any place.

    Exactly!
    No one is forcing you to eat those big Macs.
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    Ive experienced healthcare in Canada, it was great.

    Did you have open heart surgery or cancer treatment?
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    mustang190 wrote: »
    Did you have open heart surgery or cancer treatment?

    He's on the waiting list :)

    “Excessively long wait times remain a defining characteristic of Canada’s health-care system, but this year is the longest we’ve ever seen and that should trouble all Canadians,” Bacchus Barua, senior economist at the institute, said.
  • ResinheadResinhead Posts: 10,987 AG
    Ive experienced healthcare in Canada, it was great.

    http://www.transhealthcare.org/canada/

    Tmi...
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,875 AG
    He went to have that burning sensation fixed in Canada.

    Captain Todd Approves

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    cadman wrote: »
    All you did was post the cost of healthcare. Life expectancy is more of an indication of a social issue and not a medical problem. We are fat and lazy. Show me graphs of the odds of surviving a first heart attack here and in other countries, show me the life expectancy after diagnosis with cancer. Show me the survival rate of Premature babies. Show me another country where 22 week old Premature babies are surviving at an increasing rate in the U.S..

    We are too unhealthy, by our own choice, not do to worse healthcare. Our medical care is the best you find any place.

    Life expectancy is a function of both health and healthcare. Kindly share any statistics you have that show one is more important than the other.

    Moving past that, how about these statistics:

    For instance you point out our recent improvements in ultra-premature babies. You are, of course, correct. However, I counter with the vast majority of babies delivered, where we clearly lag:

    hpm-infant_mortality_chart.gif

    So which is more important? That we extend the chance of survival of a premature baby born at 21 weeks from 10 to 20%, even though they are a minuscule % of total babies born, or looking at the entire population of babies?

    You are missing the forest through the trees.

    Or let's take colorectal cancer:

    Cancer_system_is_generally_performing_well_slideshow.jpg

    Whoops, Japan beats us, despite spending less.

    Or this summary, which is another view of my original point:

    XY_Chart_Health_Care_Outcomes_World_1000_zpsd7385226.jpg

    The facts are that the USA leads in many areas of healthcare, but lags in others. It is simply untrue that we get the best health results across the board or per dollar spent. After all, some of that healthcare can and should be used on preventative care. Instead we spend trillions extending the cancer patient's life a few weeks or months, or a geriatric patient suffering from some chronic disease a few more months, etc.. I, for one, am not so sure that's better healthcare or quality of life.

    If you think we get better health outcomes, kindly share your statistics, and let's discuss them.

    And if we're not living longer, what does it matter? If we truly had the best healthcare in the world, we'd have the best preventative and acute healthcare and we'd live longer than any other country. After all, healthy lifesyles are really a healthcare problem, and the statistics on lifespan are the ultimate arbiter of our success.

    Instead, we spend more and live less.

    And that fact is indisputable, and doesn't change even if you cherrypick areas we lead the world in acute care outcomes.
  • mplspugmplspug Palmetto FloridaPosts: 12,875 AG
    Tarponator wrote: »
    The facts are that the USA leads in many areas of healthcare, but lags in others. It is simply untrue that we get the best health results across the board or per dollar spent. After all, some of that healthcare can and should be used on preventative care. Instead we spend trillions extending the cancer patient's life a few weeks or months, or a geriatric patient suffering from some chronic disease a few more months, etc.. I, for one, am not so sure that's better healthcare or quality of life.

    Most insurances will pay for preventative care like regular check ups and physicals, so to what do you refer?

    Captain Todd Approves

  • cprcpr Posts: 9,309 Admiral
    You can't compare infant mortality rates. They are different in the US because we use a lower weight to deem an infant non viable.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 17,011 AG
    mplspug wrote: »
    Most insurances will pay for preventative care like regular check ups and physicals, so to what do you refer?

    I was referring to the post I was responding to. The one that said that we're more unhealthy than other nations. My point was that preventative healthcare (or a lack thereof) is a factor in that equation, and perhaps if we spent a bit more there rather than in other (not coincidentally, much more profitable) acute care that we would live longer.

    And after all, a longer and healthier life is the ultimate measure.

    Instead, our profit driven healtcare system seeks to address areas of healthcare where the most money can be made -- acute healthcare -- extending the lives of the very sick. Rather than what should be the goal, leading longer and healthier lives.

    You know, like all those countries above us on that graph posted at the bottom of post #88.

    In my opinion, of course...Mike
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