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Why are commercial boats allowed to **** the gulf?

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  • HighTidesDrifterHighTidesDrifter Posts: 105 Officer
    Tom made some excellent points about the NOAA. Just about everything our Federal gov't touches it destroys (see Obama care as latest case in point). The states should be the ones deciding this matter and not federal bureaucrats. Like he says, we should all be doing our part and be contacting our representatives about reauthorizing Magnuson and also supporting HR3094.

    If it is possible for commercial fishing to be done "fairly", what if we were to open just a few freshwater lakes such as Lakes Okeechobee, Kissimmee, and Istokpoga to just 3 commercial boats per lake harvesting extremely limited amounts of bass and crappie? I wonder how many years it would take before corruption and greed would rule the day and the recreational anglers of those lakes would be in the same situation we are all in today? Vegas would probably set the over/under at 20 years.
    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    "The main vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." -Winston Churchill
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    Tom made some excellent points about the NOAA. Just about everything our Federal gov't touches it destroys (see Obama care as latest case in point). The states should be the ones deciding this matter and not federal bureaucrats. Like he says, we should all be doing our part and be contacting our representatives about reauthorizing Magnuson and also supporting HR3094.

    If it is possible for commercial fishing to be done "fairly", what if we were to open just a few freshwater lakes such as Lakes Okeechobee, Kissimmee, and Istokpoga to just 3 commercial boats per lake harvesting extremely limited amounts of bass and crappie? I wonder how many years it would take before corruption and greed would rule the day and the recreational anglers of those lakes would be in the same situation we are all in today? Vegas would probably set the over/under at 20 years.
    and you still trolling...

    BTW down here we call them specks.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • HighTidesDrifterHighTidesDrifter Posts: 105 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    and you still trolling...

    BTW down here we call them specks.

    I figured I would have gotten the "you're living in a fantasy world." :Spittingcoffee. BTW, I grew up in Indiana where we called them crappie and we used to drink pop instead of soda. Sorry, I didn't know only crackers were allowed here.
    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    "The main vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." -Winston Churchill
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    I figured I would have gotten the "you're living in a fantasy world." :Spittingcoffee. BTW, I grew up in Indiana where we called them crappie and we used to drink pop instead of soda. Sorry, I didn't know only crackers were allowed here.
    there is a few things that you post make sense...
    but you still trolling.

    That does nothing to help your case.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • pottydocpottydoc The thriving metropolis of Umatilla Posts: 4,018 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    so you own a Bayliner??

    Since I only commercially crab these days I am as much of a rec sportsman as you.

    I don't rec fish much except for freshwater but chose to pursue other fairly expensive outdoor hobbies.:)


    257_zpsfcxmmmrs.jpg
    Art, I'll say it again. Those are some fine looking bird dogs.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    Thank you sir, I enjoy them.
    One in the blue collar tore an ACL so he is out for the year.
    I really like his style.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    Tom made some excellent points about the NOAA. Just about everything our Federal gov't touches it destroys (see Obama care as latest case in point). The states should be the ones deciding this matter and not federal bureaucrats. Like he says, we should all be doing our part and be contacting our representatives about reauthorizing Magnuson and also supporting HR3094.

    If it is possible for commercial fishing to be done "fairly", what if we were to open just a few freshwater lakes such as Lakes Okeechobee, Kissimmee, and Istokpoga to just 3 commercial boats per lake harvesting extremely limited amounts of bass and crappie? I wonder how many years it would take before corruption and greed would rule the day and the recreational anglers of those lakes would be in the same situation we are all in today? Vegas would probably set the over/under at 20 years.

    In 25 years of gulf offshore fishing, I have never seen fish stocks as high as they are right now. Gag, Mango, and Cobia are particularly more plentiful than when I started all those years ago. There are stacks of ARS in shallower depths than I have ever seen. And we all thank the conservation efforts that lead to the current stock. But what we are seeing now is redistribution.

    There are some "nice guy rec fisherman" that post here regularly that feel that the commercial fisherman will work with us to solve our issues. The commercial side has some very smart and influential leadership. They have a list of well defined and often repeated talking points. The intention of these talking points is not to give the rec guys more share. The main effort is to lull you into a false sense of cooperation.

    Here is one of those guys. Buddy got his 20% of the total Red Snapper commercial catch gifted to him by the federal government. Is it a surprise that he is against state management?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH-G4WWtk3s
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    So cut the commercials out and without proper accounting of the rec catch you'll get maybe 10 more days...lol

    I primarily catch and release - only eating what I think won't survive - so that doesn't concern me. What does is the long term sustainability of the fishery.......including access to and preservation of the habitat........you know to keep the fish in fishing.........so my children......and their children......etc, etc.........can enjoy angling/the outdoors as much as I...........and more importantly become conservationists themselves.......because there are too many people in the world these days who think all their food comes from plastic packages in the back of grocery stores.........that wild lands are only good for development/exploitation for personal gain........without taking any personal responsibility for the polluting, pillaging, and destruction of natural habitat on this planet.
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    gettinwet wrote: »
    I primarily catch and release - only eating what I think won't survive - so that doesn't concern me. What does is the long term sustainability of the fishery.......including access to and preservation of the habitat........you know to keep the fish in fishing.........so my children......and their children......etc, etc.........can enjoy angling/the outdoors as much as I...........and more importantly become conservationists themselves.......because there are too many people in the world these days who think all their food comes from plastic packages in the back of grocery stores.........that wild lands are only good for development/exploitation for personal gain........without taking any personal responsibility for the polluting, pillaging, and destruction of natural habitat on this planet.

    Totally agree with everything here. Inshore fishing is about the fishing. For me, inshore is 99% catch and release. This thread pertains to offshore reef fishing which is quite a different ball game. Thousands of square miles of habitat and much less impact from development. With proper management, the offshore fishery is very sustainable. In question, the allocation. Given the resource is going to be harvested, should the commercial and charter industry have a disproportionate share mandated by the federal government?
  • gettinwetgettinwet Posts: 1,366 Officer
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    Totally agree with everything here. Inshore fishing is about the fishing. For me, inshore is 99% catch and release. This thread pertains to offshore reef fishing which is quite a different ball game. Thousands of square miles of habitat and much less impact from development. With proper management, the offshore fishery is very sustainable. In question, the allocation. Given the resource is going to be harvested, should the commercial and charter industry have a disproportionate share mandated by the federal government?

    Pertains the same offshore........oil spills, growing dead zones, overfishing, etc. IMHO any fish that requires seasons/bag limits shouldn't be fished commercially period. It simply is not a sustainable business.

    No one who has lived fished offshore in Southeast Florida will tell you the fishing is as good as it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. When I was a teen boats caught big grouper regularly 50lbs+ just casually bottom fishing on there way back from trolling weed lines all day. Not anymore..........just a keeper is considered big. And a large yellowfin - 100lbs or more - gets you on the cover of a magazine these days when there used to be schools of them that size and bigger.
    There are only so many casts in life, so shut up and fish!!
  • HighTidesDrifterHighTidesDrifter Posts: 105 Officer
    gettinwet wrote: »
    Pertains the same offshore........oil spills, growing dead zones, overfishing, etc. IMHO any fish that requires seasons/bag limits shouldn't be fished commercially period. It simply is not a sustainable business.

    No one who has lived fished offshore in Southeast Florida will tell you the fishing is as good as it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. When I was a teen boats caught big grouper regularly 50lbs+ just casually bottom fishing on there way back from trolling weed lines all day. Not anymore..........just a keeper is considered big. And a large yellowfin - 100lbs or more - gets you on the cover of a magazine these days when there used to be schools of them that size and bigger.

    Amen to that. To put it as succinctly as possible; No species of animal on land or in water which requires seasons/bag limits should be harvested commercially. Period.
    Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    "The main vice of capitalism is the unequal distribution of prosperity. The main vice of socialism is the equal distribution of misery." -Winston Churchill
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    In 25 years of gulf offshore fishing, I have never seen fish stocks as high as they are right now. Gag, Mango, and Cobia are particularly more plentiful than when I started all those years ago. There are stacks of ARS in shallower depths than I have ever seen. And we all thank the conservation efforts that lead to the current stock. But what we are seeing now is redistribution.

    There are some "nice guy rec fisherman" that post here regularly that feel that the commercial fisherman will work with us to solve our issues. The commercial side has some very smart and influential leadership. They have a list of well defined and often repeated talking points. The intention of these talking points is not to give the rec guys more share. The main effort is to lull you into a false sense of cooperation.

    Here is one of those guys. Buddy got his 20% of the total Red Snapper commercial catch gifted to him by the federal government. Is it a surprise that he is against state management?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH-G4WWtk3s
    Except for red grouper and some deep water species the recs do get more TAC, but the problem is you have ZERO accountability.

    Also given the fact that you sector continues to grow assures that your individual share of the pie will shrink, even if commercial fishing was cut out.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    Totally agree with everything here. Inshore fishing is about the fishing. For me, inshore is 99% catch and release. This thread pertains to offshore reef fishing which is quite a different ball game. Thousands of square miles of habitat and much less impact from development. With proper management, the offshore fishery is very sustainable. In question, the allocation. Given the resource is going to be harvested, should the commercial and charter industry have a disproportionate share mandated by the federal government?
    less impact from development??
    Estuaries are the cradle of the ocean:)

    You want to mitigate the degradation?

    move back up nawth.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    BTW, bought some more scamp for tonight's dinner!
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    Gettingwet,

    Can't tell you about SE Florida because I do not fish there regularly. Unlike the gulf, the SE does not have thousands of square miles of reef fish habitat, so I do not doubt your position. But I can tell you from first hand experience, the west and southwest gulf reef fishing is better than it was 25 years ago.

    Several years ago, a red tide did a lot of damage to defined regions, and some that I dive and fish. Documented red tides go back to the 1800s on the gulf side, so it is hard to blame all of that on man's activity. At the same time, I dive the Keys once or twice a year, and I've witnessed bleaching corals that are most certainly from warmer water, increased phosphates and missing anemones that controlled certain coral pathogens. But all of this is beyond the scope of the issue at hand.

    Red Snapper are in great supply. They are in numbers and locations that they have not been since I started fishing this coast. They will be harvested. The practical question is, should the commercial and charter interests get the rewards from the rebound while the rec share remains at historically low levels?
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    HighTidesDrifter,

    We rec guys have a difficult time sharing a common voice. We turn out poorly at gulf council meetings. Do you really believe that fisheries management has zero merit?
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    Gettingwet,

    Can't tell you about SE Florida because I do not fish there regularly. Unlike the gulf, the SE does not have thousands of square miles of reef fish habitat, so I do not doubt your position. But I can tell you from first hand experience, the west and southwest gulf reef fishing is better than it was 25 years ago.

    Several years ago, a red tide did a lot of damage to defined regions, and some that I dive and fish. Documented red tides go back to the 1800s on the gulf side, so it is hard to blame all of that on man's activity. At the same time, I dive the Keys once or twice a year, and I've witnessed bleaching corals that are most certainly from warmer water, increased phosphates and missing anemones that controlled certain coral pathogens. But all of this is beyond the scope of the issue at hand.

    Red Snapper are in great supply. They are in numbers and locations that they have not been since I started fishing this coast. They will be harvested. The practical question is, should the commercial and charter interests get the rewards from the rebound while the rec share remains at historically low levels?
    What low level?
    post up the TAC's and show all of us the low levels?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • pottydocpottydoc The thriving metropolis of Umatilla Posts: 4,018 Captain
    gettinwet wrote: »
    Pertains the same offshore........oil spills, growing dead zones, overfishing, etc. IMHO any fish that requires seasons/bag limits shouldn't be fished commercially period. It simply is not a sustainable business.

    No one who has lived fished offshore in Southeast Florida will tell you the fishing is as good as it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. When I was a teen boats caught big grouper regularly 50lbs+ just casually bottom fishing on there way back from trolling weed lines all day. Not anymore..........just a keeper is considered big. And a large yellowfin - 100lbs or more - gets you on the cover of a magazine these days when there used to be schools of them that size and bigger.

    Schools of 100 lb yft in SE Florida? When? I lived and fished there from the early '70's. I know plenty of folks who lived and fished there in the 60's. I've never even heard that before, much less been a part of it. Nor have I ever seen or heard of SE boats "casually" or regularly catching 50 lb grouper. I'll agree there's less grouper there now than when I was a teen, but that's because of the intense pressure by guys spearfishing, and bottom fishing, not commercial guys. Heck, I shot and caught my share of them. I'm in no way supporting the com guys, but if the SE fishery was ever like that, it was a looooong time ago, with waaaaay less pressure by rec and commercial folks. And I don't think there's ever been "schools" of any size yellows on our side. We've caught them 30 miles out and more on rare occasions, but never regularly till we got pretty dang close to the Bahamas.
    FWI, I moved there from E Central FL in the early 70's, and didn't leave till a few years ago.
  • pottydocpottydoc The thriving metropolis of Umatilla Posts: 4,018 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Thank you sir, I enjoy them.
    One in the blue collar tore an ACL so he is out for the year.
    I really like his style.
    He's holding that tail proud in the pic. They pointing there, or honoring another dog?
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    pottydoc wrote: »
    Schools of 100 lb yft in SE Florida? When? I lived and fished there from the early '70's. I know plenty of folks who lived and fished there in the 60's. I've never even heard that before, much less been a part of it. Nor have I ever seen or heard of SE boats "casually" or regularly catching 50 lb grouper. I'll agree there's less grouper there now than when I was a teen, but that's because of the intense pressure by guys spearfishing, and bottom fishing, not commercial guys. Heck, I shot and caught my share of them. I'm in no way supporting the com guys, but if the SE fishery was ever like that, it was a looooong time ago, with waaaaay less pressure by rec and commercial folks. And I don't think there's ever been "schools" of any size yellows on our side. We've caught them 30 miles out and more on rare occasions, but never regularly till we got pretty dang close to the Bahamas.
    FWI, I moved there from E Central FL in the early 70's, and didn't leave till a few years ago.
    ain't no big thang PottyDoc, gettinwet can tell us all about the oyster bed die off in Crystal Bay too!
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    pottydoc wrote: »
    He's holding that tail proud in the pic. They pointing there, or honoring another dog?
    They're both pointing, found the bird about the same time though both will honor (most of the time:crossed).

    He has a 12noon tail and is my most biddable dog.
    Trying to avoid surgery by limiting movement.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    What low level?
    post up the TAC's and show all of us the low levels?

    You are a joke! First you pronounce that the recs have "zero accountability". Now, you want me to post rec numbers that you first claimed did not represent accountability. Buzz off!
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,750 Captain
    Where the real "ZERO Accountability" lies is with the "Administrators" of the fisheries management division of NOAA.

    We need to enact a system like our Judges are under, whereby periodically they are on the ballot for a "Retention Election".

    If the ballot last November would of had a box that read "Shall Administrator Dr. Roy Crabtree of the NOAA fisheries service be retained in office?" Vote yes or no...........................Then I bet we would start to see some "Accountability".

    The current system is broken............plain and simple..........no accountability to the will of the people. Just manipulated by whichever group can hire the best lobbyists or lawyers to file lawsuits.

    And if tomorrow the system didn't change but the "Recreationals" started winning due to better lobbyists or lawyers...........the system would be just as damned tilted ...............only in the opposite direction. (And it has been before).
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    Where the real "ZERO Accountability" lies is with the "Administrators" of the fisheries management division of NOAA.

    We need to enact a system like our Judges are under, whereby periodically they are on the ballot for a "Retention Election".

    If the ballot last November would of had a box that read "Shall Administrator Dr. Roy Crabtree of the NOAA fisheries service be retained in office?" Vote yes or no...........................Then I bet we would start to see some "Accountability".

    The current system is broken............plain and simple..........no accountability to the will of the people. Just manipulated by whichever group can hire the best lobbyists or lawyers to file lawsuits.

    And if tomorrow the system didn't change but the "Recreationals" started winning due to better lobbyists or lawyers...........the system would be just as damned tilted ...............only in the opposite direction. (And it has been before).

    Well said! The guys who are on the ballot who keep Crabtree in place are as likely to be representing California as they are a gulf state. First, step in fixing the system is to give it back to the states.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    You are a joke! First you pronounce that the recs have "zero accountability". Now, you want me to post rec numbers that you first claimed did not represent accountability. Buzz off!
    No sir, you are the joke, post up the TAC's that show historically low rec levels?

    For your info, TAC is the TOTAL ALLOWABLE CATCH set by NMFS for commercial and recs.
    This is what they give YOU.
    Please show us where we exceed the rec level at anything in the last 30 years besides red grouper and ARS (close to 50/50 on the ARS)
    You can't and you won't so just **** player.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    Just manipulated by whichever group can hire the best lobbyists or lawyers to file lawsuits..

    That's what y'all did with the net ban..

    But now I gots me a 200k bayliner like 3 way.. lol
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    No sir, you are the joke, post up the TAC's that show historically low rec levels?

    For your info, TAC is the TOTAL ALLOWABLE CATCH set by NMFS for commercial and recs.
    This is what they give YOU.
    Please show us where we exceed the rec level at anything in the last 30 years besides red grouper and ARS (close to 50/50 on the ARS)
    You can't and you won't so just **** player.

    I'll take this one opportunity to make an important point.

    Everyone understands that the measurement of the rec catch is not accurate. There is no point in posting TAC when they can't count the rec catch with any reliability. For recs, the reality is nine days, while other sectors are being allocated the benefits of the rebound in Red Snapper.

    But again, you just pointed that out early today. Your circular logic is never ending. Type on!
  • conchydongconchydong Pompano BeachPosts: 6,935 Admiral
    pottydoc wrote: »
    Schools of 100 lb yft in SE Florida? When? I lived and fished there from the early '70's. I know plenty of folks who lived and fished there in the 60's. I've never even heard that before, much less been a part of it. Nor have I ever seen or heard of SE boats "casually" or regularly catching 50 lb grouper. I'll agree there's less grouper there now than when I was a teen, but that's because of the intense pressure by guys spearfishing, and bottom fishing, not commercial guys. Heck, I shot and caught my share of them. I'm in no way supporting the com guys, but if the SE fishery was ever like that, it was a looooong time ago, with waaaaay less pressure by rec and commercial folks. And I don't think there's ever been "schools" of any size yellows on our side. We've caught them 30 miles out and more on rare occasions, but never regularly till we got pretty dang close to the Bahamas.
    FWI, I moved there from E Central FL in the early 70's, and didn't leave till a few years ago.

    :Agree I grew up in Key West and later moved to Broward. There have never been schools of 100lb YFTs in S. FL. that I know of. Yes, occasionally some Yellowfins are caught but not with consistency. SE Florida, excluding the Keys, has way more pressure from recreational fishermen and divers than commercials.

    “Everyone behaves badly--given the chance.”
    ― Ernest Hemingway

  • 2WayCenter2WayCenter Posts: 225 Officer
    I know that the concept might be a little difficult for you, so I thought I would give you an example you could understand. Say I hire you to clean the warehouse for $9.50 an hour. That's the TAC. But on payday, I give you $1.50. You probably would not be asking for a raise. You would be more concerned about the $8.00 that was missing from your paycheck. There, does that help?

    9 days = historically low
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,625 AG
    2WayCenter wrote: »
    I know that the concept might be a little difficult for you, so I thought I would give you an example you could understand. Say I hire you to clean the warehouse for $9.50 an hour. That's the TAC. But on payday, I give you $1.50. You probably would not be asking for a raise. You would be more concerned about the $8.00 that was missing from your paycheck. There, does that help?

    9 days = historically low
    Days at sea yes...:shrug
    Enjoy that bayliner bub.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
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