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sp00n-
Posts: 104 Deckhand
Kayaks with pedals/drives vs regular Kayaks
sp00n-
Posts: 104 Deckhand
Hi Everyone,
Shouts out to my no-motor family. I have been upgrading my personal kayak(s) for a while now, started out with a river-worthy Pelican 10 footer, to a fishing style inexpensive 10 footer, to a 12'4" sit in angler kayak. I love my latest one, but am already considering getting one with some sort of propulsion. Fighting the wind/current/tide etc with a paddle while simultaneously trying to haul in the nice fish you have managed to catch is tricky sometimes.
I would like to hear opinions on the yaks with foot pedals. I would think its a no-brainer, kind of a try-it-and-you-will-never-go-back type thing (vs a regular kayak) but I was just wondering. I know they are more expensive, but can you also get really shallow with them? Do those pedals require much maintenance? Do they last?
Thanks a ton.
sp00n-
Shouts out to my no-motor family. I have been upgrading my personal kayak(s) for a while now, started out with a river-worthy Pelican 10 footer, to a fishing style inexpensive 10 footer, to a 12'4" sit in angler kayak. I love my latest one, but am already considering getting one with some sort of propulsion. Fighting the wind/current/tide etc with a paddle while simultaneously trying to haul in the nice fish you have managed to catch is tricky sometimes.
I would like to hear opinions on the yaks with foot pedals. I would think its a no-brainer, kind of a try-it-and-you-will-never-go-back type thing (vs a regular kayak) but I was just wondering. I know they are more expensive, but can you also get really shallow with them? Do those pedals require much maintenance? Do they last?
Thanks a ton.
sp00n-
Replies
I find the whole "reeling in fish while pedaling" to be more hassle then it is worth. It's not hands free fishing, it's 1 handed fishing since you always need to adjust the rudder. When I hit the mangroves, I just bring an anchor on a short rope and chuck it when I hook a fish that might drag me.
I rarely did anything other than a quick rinse to the drive when returning from fishing, and often didn't even do that.
I now have a Hobie Pro Angler.
All About The Bait Store - http://www.allaboutthebait.com/
I gave up on a Hobie. I hurt my back real bad for almost a year and couldn't paddle so I bought a Hobie just to get back out there. I sold it as soon as my back got better. When you know how to paddle and get some experience, the effort level is about the same, granted you buy a good paddling kayak.
The only Hobie that I may get into is the AI or the PA. The AI for a true sailing vessel and the PA for just having a massive platform to fish off of. Meanwhile, the Kaskazi is kicking ***. 3 knots of current, 4 feet of chop, no problem.
I fight fish 2 handed frequently and don't have to keep my hand on the rudder all the time, just reach down as necessary to make adjustments. My rudder does not change position if left alone. Admittedly, sometimes I need to adjust more often than I want because the PA is not nimble but for me it is better then trying to paddle and fight a fish. I lost a big fish and a nice rod/reel once by trying to paddle and hold the rod at the same time while following it around a channel marker. I'd have caught that fish and kept my rod if I was my in my pedal yak, or least kept my rod.
Exactly. Great for going out paddling. But were talking fishing. Again, I'd like to see you FISH in 3 knots of current, 4 feet of chop, while staying on top of a wreck, or making a 180 degree turn with a big Pelagic. Throw a cast net standing up. Wiggle through the mangroves? Have a sandwich or rigging up while peddling to the next spot.
If my priorities was doing island hopping down the Keys, I would definitely look at a sea kayak, but again, the priority is fishing.
Taking away the getting from point A to point B, and the point where you start fishing, there is no difference between a $200 kayak from Kmart and a $3000 dollar "paddle" kayak. You have the rod in your hand either working a lure or fighting a fish. Your kayak is just a platform. In a peddle kayak, you have access to two other limbs and with a flick of a finger, the ability to make a tight turn. If the primary reason for the kayak is fishing, a Hobie is the way to go. If you hate Hobie (the original Dark Side), things are changing. All the big manufacturers will be offering the hands free option soon.
Don't get me wrong. The best fishing kayak is not a peddle kayak. The best fishing kayak is the one that gets you on the water, now and the most often.
All About The Bait Store - http://www.allaboutthebait.com/
I've owned a Hobie. It's not hands free fishing, it's 1 handed fishing with the other hand on the rudder control. You're not going to jig in 3 knots while pedaling to stay on the wreck. It's an awkward position to be trying to pedal and jig at the same time, not to mention if you're pedaling up current, that jig is going to be way behind you, making it extremely awkward to work. All the other stuff you said are just minor inconveniences. I do just fine throwing my cast net sitting down. (I can also throw it standing up in my Malibu 2) I can take 2 minutes out of my time to have a snack. I've squeezed through mangrove trails lying down and pulling myself through with my arms. If I want to do a quick right turn, I push right on my rudder pedal.
Therefore, to me, the Mirage drive is just an alternate method of propulsion and let's not diminish the importance of getting from point A to point B. That's like 50% of what you're doing when kayak fishing offshore. The exceptions are the Pro Angler and the AI. Those are true unique traits (huge platform/true sailing) that you can't get in a paddle kayak, but also has it's own downsides too. I'd like to think the difference is I was forced to learn how to paddle, because Hobie wasn't an option back when I started. Therefore, paddle kayaks are an option to me, whereas a lot of newbies aren't willing to put the time in to learn and train how to paddle before going on 10 mile offshore trips.
Also, the prop drives suck. I've tried the Natives and the ones at ICAST don't seem any different, but that's another story.
For wreck jigging in current, you can sit on top of the wreck with your rod in hand and keep at a steady pace with your jig rate of movement. Does not work with a paddle regardless of how much you don't want to admit it. You are either paddling or you are not. If your not paddling, you are not in control of your kayak and are being altered by wind and current. With the peddle, even minor propulsion with the peddle will allow for adjustments with rod in hand working your jig effectively.
Cast netting sitting down is not effective. You can't see anything. Again, if you are focused on fishing, being effective is what is important. Being able to stand is huge when chasing bait or fishing flats. Having a speedy narrow kayak is not optimum if your priority is overall fishing.
Have a snack, a drink of water, take a picture, answer a phone, rig a lure, organize your gear, basically do anything requiring your hands and efficiency stops. Again, if you want to maximize your fishing effectiveness and spend more time fishing, again peddle.
Knowing how to paddle is not a primary requirement in regards to kayak fishing. Not since the mirage drive was invented. If the debate is about keeping true to kayaking, have at it. If it is what is the best all around type of kayak propulsion for fishing, Peddle. It's just technology. Things evolve. On paper or in the real world, if the primary existence for the kayak is fishing, peddle has too many advantages.
What is it not good for. Anywhere there is vertical clearance issues and when there is a lot of vegetation. Not any other issues i can think of. And no, I don't get the one hand thing. Never heard that as being a game changer problem.
And for the record, Hobie can kiss my ****. They are a rip-off because they have a good product which nobody else had anything even close to and they priced it way above what it really should be (and people paid for it and were happy and recommended it to their friends and family - see what happens after all these other companies provide options though). It's not just for their kayaks, but for anything with a Hobie name on it. Good business, yes. Sucks to be on the consumer side of it, yes.
Again, what is the better type for overall fishing. Peddle.
All About The Bait Store - http://www.allaboutthebait.com/
I didn't have a bad rudder, it's just the nature of kayaking. You hit a wave, your angle changes. I've taken out the original mirage, the pro-angler 14 and a revo 13. All the same. Maybe if you're in flat calm waters, but otherwise you're going in a circle. It's not just me some of my regular outing buddies have Hobies and we joke about the "hands free fishing" marketing gimmick.
I've tried "power anchoring" with a Hobie on a wreck with a jig. It doesn't work at all in fast current (3 knots). Even if you can synch up your pedaling with your jigging motion, your jig will be WAY behind you. So maybe I'm not understanding what you're doing. What has worked for me is pedaling/paddling in place while the jig falls.
Standing up does let you see more, I'll give you that. Doesn't stop me from catching bait sitting down. I've chucked the net in 300 feet deep at a weedline and caught fingerling jacks. I've tossed it on the beach on the way out and caught mullet/pilchards. So I'll spend an extra 10 minutes looking for bait in the morning, not a game changer. I don't catch bait on the flats though except with a sabiki, so maybe it's different. In regards to maximizing break time efficiency. I go out to have fun. I can afford to take 2 minutes to take a break and drift. Again, not a game changer.
I agree that knowing how to paddle is not a requirement these days due to Hobie. You keep talking about this "all round" kayak/propulsion. I have 5 kayaks. I don't need to deal with this "all round" business. I have narrow & fast kayak that's optimal for offshore. I have a fat wide kayak for diving and fishing inshore (I can stand up and pole, throw the net and etc). I have an inflatable for portage. I have a medium wide for longer distance bay fishing/diving and a back up to it. Paddling is a more efficient method of propulsion than pedaling over distance. Pedaling gives you more torque so you can move wide kayaks like the PA. Different tools for different situations. So I find this "pedaling being better for overall fishing" claim to be a bit misguided. What I do on my outing may be different than what you do, especially when I can chose a kayak tailored for the task.
That's great, but not everyone wants to own Five kayaks. Most kayak anglers eventually sell their One paddle kayak to get A peddle kayak for the obvious advantage of having hands free to do other things while underway. If your going to buy one fishing kayak, peddle is the choice of most experienced kayak anglers. The few pros who don't are typically using free kayaks given to them by their sponsors. Hands free to fight/chase a fish down to regain your line instead of being spooled,or dragged around an obstruction and cut off -- its a no brainer. Look at all the new icast kayaks: the paddle companies are introducing peddle kayaks. Hopefully the competition will force Hobie to make their prices more competitive instead of monopolistic.
I feel like most kayak anglers migrate to Hobie, because they don't want to dedicate the time to learn how to paddle. Kayak anglers are mostly fishermen who got into kayaking and not kayakers who got into fishing, so I understand the move. I think this is why kayak fishing companies are turning to pedal drives as well. However, that's not the point. Steve said he hasn't met anyone who turned away from Hobie due to performance. I was just giving my perspective of owning a Hobie and turning back to paddle kayaks.
You guys don't have to repeat the Hobie marketing book to me. I've owned and fished off one. I find the "hands free" thing to be a gimmick and in reality it's "1 hand free". To me, the mirage drive was primarily an alternate form of propulsion, which doesn't out perform a good paddle kayak anyways, so I turned back. I find all the other stuff you can do "1 handed" while pedaling to be really minor. I can 1 hand paddle around obstructions, I can take a 2 minute break to eat a snack, I can stand up and throw a net just fine in my inshore kayak, I have foot rudders so I can still make tight turns with a power stroke. Seriously, before it was the kayak purists who got all defensive when it came to Hobies, now you Hobie guys are getting all defensive about paddle kayaks.
Agree that most kayak fishermen are fishermen that use a kayak rather than kayakers who decided to fish. Defensive regarding peddle kayaks ? Interesting perspective -- Just trying to state the facts which we all see differently. What's important is what works for you -- Cheers.
I guess defensive can be a bit strong. But after I posted that Hobies didn't take on me, I then had to answer 20 questions about what you can do with a Hobie. It's not like I'm just guessing on what it does, I owned and fished off one. I did my research before dropping over $1k on a weekend toy. Just because it didn't appeal to me doesn't mean I just "forgot" that you can have 1 hand free while pedaling. Don't take it like I'm knocking on Hobie. It didn't take on me, doesn't mean it won't take on you. Everybody has different preferences and I don't think you can make blanket statements of what's best. So yeah, whatever works for you is the best, gotta agree on that.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. Look on Hobies own forum about guys who take Hobies on sea kayak tours. Nothing beats sit-inside sea touring kayaks over distance. These guys are racing Adventure 16s as well, so never mind the Revo 13. The Adventure 16 is certainly comparable though and beats out other SOT crafts except for surfskis.
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=41230#p168496
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=33914&hilit=sea+kayak
What really holds Hobie back is the hull design. They're catering to a fishing market and not the sea touring market so I can understand. The take away here is that the same guys who trained to paddle sea kayaks can get an Adventure 16 and still compete in sea kayak trials without having to train how to pedal.
I'm a Hobie owner, but I agree with Qautin's observations about the need for "one hand on the rudder." I have experienced it first hand on my own Sport, Revo 11, Revo 13, and Outback; all of which had sailing rudders except for the Sport. It is an annoyance, nothing more, it doesn't deter me from fishing out of my Hobies. Besides which, when you're offshore and waves are hitting you from the side, constant correction is just part of the game.
Regarding shallow water; you can get into water that is -almost- as skinny as a traditional kayak but it requires removal of the drive and pulling up the rudder. Is that really a big deal? Yes and no: Yes because some models (sport/Outback/ProAnglers) absolutely suck to paddle; and No because a paddle is included in your purchase, is ALWAYS a necessity for the hobie owner (surf launching for offshore, and shallow water inshore navigation) and the revo 13 and 16 are halfway decent at paddling (for a Hobie).
Paddle Kayaks have had decades to mature and there are different hull shapes for every conceivable paddling situation. You want to stand, go wide. You want to cover ground, go long and narrow. You get the idea. I actually want to purchase a paddle kayak for upper-body exercise and pleasure cruising, rather than fishing. That's not because I acknowledge one is definitively better than the other for fishing, it's simply personal preference.
What was the point of this thread again? lol
LOL....Peddle verses Paddle....with more commentors favoring Peddle for fishing, and a diehard paddle advocate rebutting most the peddle kayak fishing recommendations.
One hand free is a matter of perspective. It is more like 2 hands free most of the time. I have a sail ruddar, and find that I need to make 3 second corrections every 30 seconds while underway. It is annoying, but does not keep me from doing anything I need to do while underway...cast fishing lures, tie knots, eat lunch, fiddle with my fishfinder are all more feasible and enjoyable without having paddles to deal with. If you catch a sailfish on a paddle kayak, you will need to pass it off to a peddle kayak for proper reviving.
Barrell may have embellished the woman beating a man comparison, but his other comments merit repeating. As a kayak dealer who used paddle kayaks for 10 years before Hobies were invented, and now recommends Hobies for most kayak fishing applications, His opinion should hold major weight for anyone considering the sport. As an avid offshore kayak fisherman without any sponsorship influences, I concur.
Break out some more Popcorn and Kool Aid...............
https://youtu.be/iQwDC9313hw
His name is Josh Holmes - probably one of the most hard core kayak anglers ever. Check out the Marlin fight at the end - well worth the watch.
Alright, guess I was wrong. I must've made a mistake. I should sell all my kayaks and find the guy I sold my Hobie to and see if I can buy it back.
*Edit.
BTW, tip for people who haven't landed a sail in a paddle kayak. Reviving is easy. Hold the bill with one hand, 1 hand paddle on the opposite side only like a canoe. Adjust the rudder only slightly. You don't need to go in a straight line, just a big circle.
I'll give you that. The plastic fishing kayaks market in the US are pretty bad in terms of paddle performance. OK has been the most reasonable, but even they are migrating towards fat kayaks with bells & whistles instead of hull performance. All market driven, so I get the move. The vast majority of kayak fishing in the US is done on lakes and rivers, so hull speed was never a primary criteria. Take in point, the Scupper Pro was their best SOT paddle kayak and they discontinued it. I find the good paddle kayaks are all imported from NZ, AU, SA and etc. Where guys mainly fish offshore and need good hull performance for open water and rough conditions.
I doubt Hobie does anything other than plastic, it's just too expensive for the market. Their original mirage was on a fiberglass hull. People balk at $3k now for a PA. My fiberglass kayak costs $3k. The option to layout the deck in carbon fiber is $5k, and that's without a pedal drive. Around the $5k mark is where people think, I can just buy a boat.
This is not a new concept though and people do dream about it.
http://www.hobiecat.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=43937
Alot of times, but not always the case...with the bells and whistle, 10K in my fishing kayak. Some of us look at kayak fishing as a unique sport rather than a means to go out and catch fish.
That does not sound good ? Whatever works best for you is what matters -- Cheers.
The majority tends to dictate the market. You and I may see kayaks and boats as separate sports, but the fact of the matter is most guys buy kayaks, because they can't afford a boat. $5k isn't much of a boat for offshore, but the kayak fishing market is overwhelmingly dominated by lake and river guys. $5k is a decent enough bass boat. I'd like to see Hobie prove me wrong and go back to fiberglass hulls at least. I think their hull failure rates wouldn't be as high if they did.
Being facetious John. I really don't need to defend my decisions on what I want to take on the water against you Hobie guys. I couldn't care less what you guys take out unless it's dangerous. Steve made the comment that he hasn't heard of anyone who gave up Hobies due to performance and I made the input that I have. I'm not making it up as I go along. I owned a Hobie, it didn't suit me, ya'll can just deal with it. It just so happens I prioritize speed and rough sea performance over everything else. I can't go fishing 4 days a week like you. I get Saturdays only now, so if it's rough and I need to get out, I need something that can handle it. Therefore when you guys mention things like "being able to eat a snack", I almost fell on my butt laughing.