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  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    This supports the path set forth by the "Vision 2020" report in 2009.
    http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ocs/mafac/meetings/2009_08/docs/clean_vision_2020_revisions_combined_vhm806.pdf

    The push is to go to catch and release only, then totally shut down fishing due to discard mortality of 40% or more.

    When are the American People going to step up and say enough is enough of this enviro-funded hogwash?
  • Doc StressorDoc Stressor Homosassa, FLPosts: 2,747 Captain
    You must have missed something while reading the article. Like maybe the whole article. It points out the problems with catch and release and proposes an open season for all bottom fish in the SE region. That would get around the C&R post release mortality issue that has kept the red snapper season closed for years.
    While the idea is still in its infancy, Hartig proposes to:


    ■ Establish a single season for a large group of bottom-dwelling fish. His letter floats two possible season dates lasting from May to August or May to October.
    ■ Require recreational anglers to get a special stamp to target bottom-dwelling fish. To get the stamp, anglers would have to watch an educational video on safely releasing fish to increase their chances for survival. Some would also have to report their catches, which would improve the data for future studies.
    ■ Force anglers to use a special device that quickly returns released fish to deep water and increases their chance for survival.
    ■ Limit the number of charter boats that can harvest red snapper through a permit system.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Sorry for the confusion - I was referring to the Feds'/enviros position and not the guy's idea. The Feds/enviros will never go for it - read the Feds' paper on their "vision" - that's the Plan.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,887 Captain
    This is a ruse to have a short season for "all bottom fishing" and you can't keep nothing from the reef period the rest of the year.

    That equates to plain old BS and they already tried that approach with the all bottom fishing past 240 feet closure that got overturned. How would this be any different?

    What is next a "short season for slow trolling and livebaiting kingfish"???????? From Ft Pierce north they are catching plenty of "bycatch redsnappers" while kingfishing.

    Just more of a march towards implementing catch shares on everything so the one percenters can steal and profit from our natural resources. :nono
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Doc, Tom doesn't deal with facts very well...

    Heck, he doesn't pay attention to facts at all.... or science.... or reality...

    Here's a fact; Art never passes on a chance to make a personal attack - you have been warned repeatedly not to do that, yet here we are...cease and desist or deal with the consequences Amigo.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    No, I have a very good grasp on the facts, science and reality of the situation. It was not a personal observation of yours - it was a very personal attack without merit which will no longer be tolerated on this site Art.
  • ACME Ventures FishingACME Ventures Fishing Posts: 851 Officer
    Something missed, likely intentional when the Councils and NMFS cite the 40% discard Mortality Rate is that
    this is very old data (40%). This predates Circle Hook mandates, de-hooking tools, Venting Tool use, Desending
    devices, etc. ARS tagging programs have shown themselves the rugged nature of ARS with recapture on the same
    day as caught and tagged! We have had that ourselves several times while fishing for other bottom fare. Most fishing
    clubs have been stressing the safe release of fish restricted from harvest by means of the various tools at our
    disposal that have become popular in the last 7 years since the SA ARS closure began. Most Charter Captains here
    that I know of practice these safe releases also. I would assume the actual mortality rate has plummeted as is also
    believed by a State Biologist that has run on my boat during charters, to collect data.

    When I ask Roy Crabtree about this, the answer was very non-committal. "Were looking into it". John Carmichael's
    reply was that 'they have not been instructed to make any changes to those numbers'.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 6,008 Admiral
    When I ask Roy Crabtree about this, the answer was very non-committal. "Were looking into it". John Carmichael's
    reply was that 'they have not been instructed to make any changes to those numbers'.

    Give 'em 10 or 15 years....
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,761 Captain
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    No, I have a very good grasp on the facts, science and reality of the situation. It was not a personal observation of yours - it was a very personal attack without merit which will no longer be tolerated on this site Art.

    Thanks Tom. It has been long overdue.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,399 AG
    drgibby wrote: »
    Thanks Tom. It has been long overdue.
    What has? Doc Stressor posts an interesting article that even has commercial and recreational interests in agreement to help the fishermen.
    Since the article doesn't support Toms agenda he dismissed it as enviro funded hogwash and goes off on his own little tangent.

    Just my opinion.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    What has? The cessation of your continued unsolicited attacks - that has been a long time coming, and that time is now. You offer nothing in terms of substantive arguments to support your position - just mean-spirited personal attacks on members of this forum.

    You are also confused about the reality of what I said. The commercial fisherman's suggestion, while sounding good, has absolutely zero chance of going forward..."a consolidated, several-month season when anglers can harvest a number of different bottom-dwelling fish species, including red snapper.."? When the Fed's have totally shut down the fishery based on bogus data, and they are going to provide a several-month season? Not in this lifetime.

    "Despite disagreement over the need for the regulations, biologists, fishery managers and fishermen shared optimism that the species was on the road to recovery and this year could perhaps have the first open season for red snapper since 2014.

    Instead, a new study by the federal government released in April not only found that the species hasn’t recovered from overfishing, but that too many fish were still being killed despite the strict regulations in place. While anglers have had just a handful of opportunities to harvest red snapper since 2010, biologists estimate that roughly 40 percent of fish caught and released will later die due to the trauma of being reeled in from the ocean’s deep depths.

    A month after the study’s release, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association delivered another tough announcement for anglers: There’d be no red snapper season in 2016.

    Federal law requires fishery managers to set a limit of red snapper, and all other overfished species, that can be killed each year.

    Once the year ends, the government estimates the number of fish that were killed. If the number exceeds the limit, there can be no open season the following year.

    This year, the government concluded that anglers killed more than double the fish they were allowed in 2015, forcing them to close the season in 2016. It made a similar finding the year before."


    I reference the Vision 2020 report, from the Feds', produced in 2009. It recommends catch and release only fishing by the year 2020, and as the Feds' state above, the bycatch discard mortality of snapper from fishermen fishing for other species is suggested to be detrimental to the red snapper biomass, thus no season this year.

    The proof is in the pudding; Aren't we much closer to the desired results of Vision 2020 today in 2016 than we were back in 2009? Only 3-1/2 more years till we are in 2020.

    That is the reality that we are facing today.
  • Doc StressorDoc Stressor Homosassa, FLPosts: 2,747 Captain
    I guess that I should have know better than to post a link to an article in this section of the forum and expect a reasonable discussion.

    The article cites a proposal to begin a conversation about solutions to the problem of post release mortality leading to closed or shortened seasons for regulated bottom fish. As long as there are different seasons for each species, post release mortality for any closed species is always going to be a problem. So by having a single open season for all of the affected bottom species at the same time, the discard of by-catch problem can be minimized. That's simply common sense.

    We need to be working toward practical solutions to the problems of fisheries management. Ranting against the agencies and pointing out the deficiencies in the data hasn't accomplished very much over the years. The data are always going to be inadequate to make informed decisions. Any single estimate of post release mortality is going to be wrong because of differences in depth, water temperature, and release methods. But regardless of what the actual percentage might be, it will always be a factor that reduces the number of fish anglers will be able to keep.

    Just one question before I leave this discussion (?):

    What is it about the Vision 2020 document makes you feel that the feds want to shut down gamefish retention by sport anglers by 2020? Is it the sentence in bold here from the Appendix?
    Preferred State in 2020: Many recreational species have limited population growth rates and are too valuable to be caught only once. By 2020, catch and release fishing is emphasized and accounted for in specific species assessments. The proper techniques for release are refined and disseminated to lower post release mortality. For other fisheries, minimum size limits and reduced daily bag limits are sufficient management measures to maintain healthy standing stocks. Additional seasonal closures are considered to eliminate or redirect effort. By 2020, angler satisfaction is derived from the recreational fishing experience rather than the take or “kill” fish. To achieve optimum yield, adaptive management measures such as a temporary reallocation of quota is available to managers. For example, if commercial quota is not harvested, managers are able to temporarily reassign the under harvested quota to provide additional recreational opportunity, and vice versa.

    After reading the entire document, I think that you are either taking this statement out of context or being way too paranoid. Most sport anglers are already deriving satisfaction for the experience rather than the take. I don't see that statement as any sort of threat.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,399 AG
    Well said Doc.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    I guess that I should have know better than to post a link to an article in this section of the forum and expect a reasonable discussion.

    With all due respect Doc, are you referring to a reasonable discussion as in saying; "You must have missed something while reading the article. Like maybe the whole article."?

    Is it reasonable to assume that fisheries biologists, fisheries managers, and fishermen on the water don't know what they are talking about, and that the federal fisheries managers somehow do?

    No, I don't think that's a reasonable assumption Doc.

    "Despite disagreement over the need for the regulations, biologists, fishery managers and fishermen shared optimism that the species was on the road to recovery and this year could perhaps have the first open season for red snapper since 2014. Instead, a new study by the federal government released in April not only found that the species hasn’t recovered from overfishing, but that too many fish were still being killed despite the strict regulations in place."

    The federal fisheries management system has been corrupted and is broken to the point that it can no longer function to serve its purpose and needs to be replaced by the states' fisheries commissions.

    Proposing a "management" plan that promotes no take (like Vision 2020 does) is not management at all - it's a cop out. Let's focus on getting viable third party (NMFS-free) assessments and effort/landings data instead of buying into their garbage. Let's focus on getting data that the American People can buy into, actually believe, and get behind as the NMFS has lost any and all credibility in that regard.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,399 AG
    Tom, what if the states did get control and had the same findings as the feds?

    Where would you direct your ire then, Draugas?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    I guess we need to cross that bridge when we get to it pard.

    Dr. Greg Stunz is getting a paper peer reviewed right now that shows that there were enough snapper on just 5 natural reefs off of Texas that equated to 8% of that year's ACL. 5 natural reefs.

    Imagine what the numbers would be if the Feds' would count the fish around where they actually live; around the tens of thousands of oil platforms/artificial reefs? Perhaps it would show that they are not "overfished" as they claim.

    Let's get some viable, NMFS-free data and let the chips fall where they may. Enough of this nonsense that the Gulf red snapper are "overfished" - they are not, and are actually underfished, in my opinion, causing probable untold harm to other species. But, the term "overfished" is what gives the Feds' the power to inflict these needless draconian regulations, even though independent fisheries biologists, state fisheries managers, and fishermen themselves believe that is not the case.

    What we need are more Dr. Stunzs.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,399 AG
    You do realize that Doc was commenting on South Atlantic where there is no catch shares and all ARS is closed (rec and commercial).


    It's also where the commercial guys bucked the system on VMS and said no, so maybe this is a payback ( if you wear a tinfoil hat and subscribe to the enviro whack job conspiracy theory).

    Underfished in your opinion...

    You sell a service to fishermen that helps them fill the box so to speak, less days at sea equals less $$ for Capt. Tom, so your motives aren't purely altruistic IMO.

    Am I wrong here, Mitra?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,887 Captain
    Well I read the article and then I went and read this SAFMC briefing on this "interesting idea"

    http://blog.safmc.net/download/Briefing%20Book%20June%202016/Snapper%20Grouper/A10b_RedSnapperMgmt_052316.pdf.

    It sure looks interesting alright, looks like opening a road map to get the South Atlantic to where the Gulf currently is.

    Complete with all the familiar topics.......separate the sectors charter for hire, head boat etc.,...install limited entry permits on everything..........let the "accountable sectors with verifiable catch" spread their take throughout the whole year.......limit the recreational season to set specific time.

    Then after they continue to say "just the recs over harvested" so we have to reduce their season next year.......it should only take us a few years to get down to a 9 day season like the Gulf has.

    OH yeah I forgot one thing.........we will get all that plus the added benefit of "all species managed under the snapper-grouper complex" only being open during the same short season.:hairraiser

    The guys floating this hogwash in the newspapers ain't new to the councils and the ideas ain't novel. It's actually just more smoke and mirrors reminiscent of all the one page BS op ads that Holly Binns ran in our Florida papers a few short years ago.

    I'm not paranoid at all, I'm a realist & I been watching this show a long time now. :wink
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,399 AG
    Well I read the article and then I went and read this SAFMC briefing on this "interesting idea"

    http://blog.safmc.net/download/Briefing%20Book%20June%202016/Snapper%20Grouper/A10b_RedSnapperMgmt_052316.pdf.

    It sure looks interesting alright, looks like opening a road map to get the South Atlantic to where the Gulf currently is.

    Complete with all the familiar topics.......separate the sectors charter for hire, head boat etc.,...install limited entry permits on everything..........let the "accountable sectors with verifiable catch" spread their take throughout the whole year.......limit the recreational season to set specific time.

    Then after they continue to say "just the recs over harvested" so we have to reduce their season next year.......it should only take us a few years to get down to a 9 day season like the Gulf has.

    OH yeah I forgot one thing.........we will get all that plus the added benefit of "all species managed under the snapper-grouper complex" only being open during the same short season.:hairraiser

    The guys floating this hogwash in the newspapers ain't new to the councils and the ideas ain't novel. It's actually just more smoke and mirrors reminiscent of all the one page BS op ads that Holly Binns ran in our Florida papers a few short years ago.

    I'm not paranoid at all, I'm a realist & I been watching this show a long time now. :wink
    But there is no season to reduce on the rec or comm side for ARS???

    None, Nada.

    BTW, if you notice the rec fishing reports for the GOM (specially the NW sector) all reflect bigger ARS compared to 10 years ago..

    Same thing NMFS has been saying last 10 years.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,887 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Same thing NMFS has been saying last 10 years.

    And bless your heart, you been saying the same ole things the last 10 years.:grin

    I'll just let the viewers follow the link I posted, read the document and draw their own conclusions about what it represents.

    I have shared my personal take on it already..........I don't expect everyone else to share the same viewpoint, least of all those who may be getting compensated to represent some organization or another.:wink
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,399 AG
    Didn't think it was possible to get down from zero days to nine days..

    I may represent OFF but there sure ain't no compensation involved.. that your own opinion or is someone jerking your strings?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,887 Captain
    Any views or opinions I express are mine alone and no one jerks my strings, not even you.

    And you don't have to get all worked up about it............I put it nicely and called it an "organization".

    I mean I realize you would rather mouth kiss Hillary than to have to tell someone you were a commercial fishing
    "Union Representative".:grin
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Art - what is "OFF" and what is your affiliation?

    Sounds eerily similar to your good friend Bob Gill and how you vigorously defended that he wasn't being "compensated" for his work he did for the Ocean Conservancy, either before or after he was ousted from the Gulf Council.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,761 Captain
    Any views or opinions I express are mine alone and no one jerks my strings, not even you.

    And you don't have to get all worked up about it............I put it nicely and called it an "organization".

    I mean I realize you would rather mouth kiss Hillary than to have to tell someone you were a commercial fishing
    "Union Representative".:grin

    Finally, Now it all makes perfect sense! This certainly explains the hostility. Must be hard waking up every day with such a huge chip on your shoulders...........
  • bay20bay20 Posts: 1,491 Officer
    The way I look at it is the idea is to promote an open season to harvest fish from the grouper/snapper complex, what happens when the seasons are closed? Does it mean that during the closed season all bottom fishing will be prohibited? If that is the case then you charter/partyboat owners better have a backup plan because seeing the way fishing days a determined, not so much in the Atlantic but in the gulf you might be fishing 2 months out of the year. They are still on path to their original plan of no red snapper harvest till the year 2035.
  • bay20bay20 Posts: 1,491 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    But there is no season to reduce on the rec or comm side for ARS???

    None, Nada.

    BTW, if you notice the rec fishing reports for the GOM (specially the NW sector) all reflect bigger ARS compared to 10 years ago..

    Same thing NMFS has been saying last 10 years.

    Well Art It takes a real genius to think anything other would happen if you shutdown a fishery. I live on the East Coast in snapper country and 10 years ago I was catching 20lb snappers bottom fishing and now you can catch 20 lber's live baiting pogies for kingfish
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,887 Captain
    drgibby wrote: »
    Finally, Now it all makes perfect sense! This certainly explains the hostility. Must be hard waking up every day with such a huge chip on your shoulders...........

    If you are assuming I don't like unions........you made no sense of my post at all.

    It was a humorous jab at A1 who has gone all over this site over the years posting snipets of how the unions have ruined America's economy..............all while representing a group that many, such as myself, would classify as "a union".

    Hence the :grin at the end of my post. Here is a example:

    "I have taken a pay cut for the last 5 years all the while NOT cutting my employees pay. They haven't gotten a raise but they ain't lost any either.

    Unions suk."

    Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?85462-Gotta-love-those-unions/page2#ixzz4Bqsuw6VY

    But feel free to :spin it any way you wish.:grin
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    What is O.F.F.?
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,887 Captain
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    What is O.F.F.?

    If I'm not mistaken it is Organized Fisherman of Florida.

    If I'm mistaken I'm sure someone will chime in and correct me, and I will stand corrected.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,761 Captain
    If you are assuming I don't like unions........you made no sense of my post at all.

    It was a humorous jab at A1 who has gone all over this site over the years posting snipets of how the unions have ruined America's economy..............all while representing a group that many, such as myself, would classify as "a union".

    Hence the :grin at the end of my post. Here is a example:

    "I have taken a pay cut for the last 5 years all the while NOT cutting my employees pay. They haven't gotten a raise but they ain't lost any either.

    Unions suk."

    Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?85462-Gotta-love-those-unions/page2#ixzz4Bqsuw6VY

    But feel free to :spin it any way you wish.:grin

    I guess my reply was not as clear as I had intended it to be. It was in no way directed at you sir, but rather at a#1 being a commercial fisheries rep. My apologies....
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