Jupiter 1/29: Nice day for Mahi and and feeling sorry for a commercial guy

Black Attack

Beautiful day on the water. Perfect conditions. A slow morning north of the inlet with no bites trolling and no definitive edges outside of 80'. Gave up after a while and moved back inside to the 80' line where a bunch of commercial guys were working. They seemed to be catching a bunch of small Kings or Spanish Macs. Trolled Gogs for a while in and out of 2 commercial guys and only had small bite offs. They were nice and we all respected each other. Started to slow troll the rip south and crossed paths with another commercial guy.

He went ballistic on me, cursing me out and deliberately crossing my stern multiple times to cut my lines off. I actually try my best to respect these guys and was only passing thru, actually trying to avoid him. The more he yelled, the more I just ignored him. The more I ignored him, the more and louder he yelled.

I had a charter and was mostly concerned for their safety that this guy might do something stupid. Anyway, shortly after we left the area, we hit a really nice Mahi. Trolled east for a while and ended up on a great color change & rip line and scored 2 more Mahi and lost 2.

If anyone knows the guy who got really pissed at me (FL 2015KE) please let him know that I'm sorry his life is so miserable and if there is anything I can do to help him find a better life, please just let me know.

Plane Fish n

Jim,

What you fail to understand is that guys like that OWN THE OCEAN!!!! Don't you get it? :shrug:shrug:shrug

Just ask them.

Seriously, good for you with ignoring him.

Not all commercial guys are bad.. matter of fact, met a few nice one's down in Stuart.

Congrats on the dolphin.

Going out tomorrow

Cheers

JIMinPB

Yea, commercial guys & dive boats, some are more pleasant to deal with than others.

Glad to hear that you got some fish in the boat.

Thanks for the report.

CaptJ

I just ignore everybody now. I only anchor fish (or dive), and have seen it all. I can only equate on water attitudes with South Florida drivers. That's why I now spend as much time in the Keys as possible. No sense getting mad at anyone. Wait long enough and they'll usually go away.

Captjohn5150

If he was working such as anchored and or pulling a 360 around a school of fish he was working you must give way. As a captain you would know that as a working boat he has the right of way over you and your trolling group of paid clients.
You would be more of a give way boat than he would be as he was there first working....
I have gone complete ape turds on any charter boat who jumped a school of fish I was working without an invite. We don't own the ocean, just give them THIER room to work.
I have litterally retaliated by using an grapple anchor with chain pulled 200 ft behind my boat to catch all the lines on the side of a drift boat and smoked all the line off all the reels stern to bow....I have also done more than a few 6 pack charter boats for blowing up a school of kings....PS I also was a charter Capt/ free lance mate, hired gun ect, so I know both sides of the game. I always gave respect and stayed a far distance away.

Capt Tommy

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

If he was working such as anchored and or pulling a 360 around a school of fish he was working you must give way. As a captain you would know that as a working boat he has the right of way over you and your trolling group of paid clients.
You would be more of a give way boat than he would be as he was there first working....
I have gone complete ape turds on any charter boat who jumped a school of fish I was working without an invite. We don't own the ocean, just give them THIER room to work.
I have litterally retaliated by using an grapple anchor with chain pulled 200 ft behind my boat to catch all the lines on the side of a drift boat and smoked all the line off all the reels stern to bow....I have also done more than a few 6 pack charter boats for blowing up a school of kings....PS I also was a charter Capt/ free lance mate, hired gun ect, so I know both sides of the game. I always gave respect and stayed a far distance away.

Sorry Capt John. Your response is why commercial guys get a bad name. I have commercial kingfished (among others) for many years. A handline commercial fisherman has no more right of way than a charter boat. Going ballistic because a boat is trolling along a rip which happens to coincide with your "circle" is childish and ignorant. Your decision to "retaliate" is not only ethically bad, it is also illegal and, since most people have video cameras these days leaves you potentially liable for any and all damages and charges.

A boat pasing through is different than a boat following you around or pushing you out of your area. If the passing boat is too close or directly interfering, THEN you have reason to be angry and believe me I will be right there with you. But in a crowded area where it is nearly impossible for all commercial boats and rec boats to fish without crossing paths, you are expecting too much. To think a school of fish is "yours" in this situation is almost comical.

MUTUAL RESPECT and COURTESY are what BOTH SIDES need.

Plane Fish n

Capt Tommy wrote: »

Sorry Capt John. Your response is why commercial guys get a bad name. I have commercial kingfished (among others) for many years. A handline commercial fisherman has no more right of way than a charter boat. Going ballistic because a boat is trolling along a rip which happens to coincide with your "circle" is childish and ignorant. Your decision to "retaliate" is not only ethically bad, it is also illegal and, since most people have video cameras these days leaves you potentially liable for any and all damages and charges.

A boat pasing through is different than a boat following you around or pushing you out of your area. If the passing boat is too close or directly interfering, THEN you have reason to be angry and believe me I will be right there with you. But in a crowded area where it is nearly impossible for all commercial boats and rec boats to fish without crossing paths, you are expecting too much. To think a school of fish is "yours" in this situation is almost comical.

MUTUAL RESPECT and COURTESY are what BOTH SIDES need.

Extremely well said!!!!! :thumbsup:thumbsup

Net 30

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

As a captain you would know that as a working boat he has the right of way over you and your trolling group of paid clients.

No working boat OWNs a school of fish.....jeez. :rolleyes

Captjohn5150

A working com fishing boat takes ranks over a trolling 6 pack boat esp when that bug boat was there first, found the fish, is actively engaged in com fishing activity on a school of fish in an easy viewed pattern.
Spend enough time on the water and you will see and learn.
I have had to invite more than my share of other fisherman over to my dockage. The stupid ones who showed up took their clock cleaning reeducation to heart. The ones who got their reels smoked for some reason never bothered to come on over to say hello.
People just don't realize how strong, physically fit a commercial fisherman is. All we do is shovel thousands of pounds of ice weekly, lift 100 lbs crawfish traps hundreds of times a day, work a bug line, hand line fish, man handle fish into a box, out of a box,ect and to be able to take a constant pounding day in and out. You ever wonder why a 70 year old com fisherman can still lift a box of fish. Play with one, say some nice words....

The problem is clearly at the fault of non educated fisherman. Don't jump a mans school of dolphin, or mackerel, or snapper chum slick. If someone beat you to the spot first, it's theirs, stay 100 ft away at least. If everyone gave respect there would not be a problem.

Capt Tommy

No a com boat doesn't rank any higher than any other boat. There is no rule, written or otherwise that makes a com boat more important than anyone else working for a living. That attitude is the underlying source of your conflicts.

I am the first to say that people should NOT follow the charterboats or commercial boats instead of looking for their own fish. However, if their paths cross in the search, there is no harm in that. And I am pretty sure the OP was not talking about being within 100' and didn't say he was staying in the circle. That's a whole separate issue.

Yes, rec boats and charterboats sometimes can be pretty rude and/or ignorant, but commercial boats are driven by people too. And where there are people there are those who are ignorant and rude. Try not to be one of them - I know I try.

SeaHunt1

How come all the Com fishermen aren't on the World's Strongest Man Show. Geez, who sits there and tries to talk about how strong they are like this clown. Grow up bro. You or nobody else owns the ocean. You are the exact example of why most rec fishermen hate you com guys. Great reputation getter here.

Captjohn5150

Someone isn't a real Capt....please Remember this little saying.....new reels catch fish so purchase some...this is in fact a pecking order of the rules of the road at sea...clue the New stands for NUC or not under control, better known as vessel is in trouble...number 4 is fishing vessels engaged in commercial fishing aka working boat. There are rules that govern commercial fishing, read up on them.
Most commercial fisherman know the rules of the road like truck drivers know the road or a block layer knows his trade. Trouble happens when a googan throws a monkey wrench into the works which up sets the over all balance of a nice working environment. As far as why we very strong fisherman don't do strong man events, way to busy fishing.......

Capt Tommy

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

Someone isn't a real Capt....please Remember this little saying.....new reels catch fish so purchase some...this is in fact a pecking order of the rules of the road at see....clue the New stands for NUC or not under control, better known as vessel is in trouble...number 4 is fishing vessels engaged in commercial fishing aka working boat. There are rules that govern commercial fishing, read up on them.

You should be embarrassed. But you don't know enough to be. That rule you sight has nothing to do with rights to a school of fish or a piece of water. It has ONLY to do with who has the right of way while travelling in a constrained area, while crossing or meeting. Not to mention the fact that a boat that is hand line fishing is not constrained in any way. Rules of the road are for SAFETY.

Your comment is almost as bad as a sailboater who thinks he has the right of way when he doesn't have sails up.

I wanted so badly to just ignore you because I know that no matter how wrong you may be you will never accept it. Then you post something like that which I just can't let go. At this point I will declare that I will no longer participate in your sad case.

Mwood

I fish for a living as well. I was going to leave this alone, but now your just making us all look bad. It specifically says fishing vessels do not mention the term commercial operation. It's a vessel with restricted maneuverability due to its fishing gear or anyone currently on a fish.

Mwood

And to the OP, it is generally frowned upon to troll through someone's circle as it can shut down the bite/get the guy of his pattern. I just had to reply to the misinfo above. Good luck

the other tom

wow.


where is the candid camera....

John McKroid

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

Someone isn't a real Capt....please Remember this little saying.....new reels catch fish so purchase some...this is in fact a pecking order of the rules of the road at sea...clue the New stands for NUC or not under control, better known as vessel is in trouble...number 4 is fishing vessels engaged in commercial fishing aka working boat. There are rules that govern commercial fishing, read up on them.
Most commercial fisherman know the rules of the road like truck drivers know the road or a block layer knows his trade. Trouble happens when a googan throws a monkey wrench into the works which up sets the over all balance of a nice working environment. As far as why we very strong fisherman don't do strong man events, way to busy fishing.......

Wow, Before attempting to cite the rules, get some schooling....a basic idea is dangerous when it is missing some critical details. So far your posts have been an embarassment.


http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#engaged in fishing

Capt Tommy

I want to say that, as a long time commercial fisherman who just happens to work on the rec side these days, that this guy does NOT represent most commercial fishermen. I respect commercial fishermen for the hard work they do and I know first hand the difficulties of making a living while battling fisheries regulations, weather, changing fish patterns and populations, markets flooded with imported junk, declining habitat and least of all competition for fish by other commercial fishermen, recreational fishermen, and predators like sharks and marine mammals which have become a regular nuisance. All the while dealing with mechanical and every day life issues.

It is a difficult life, which is why I give them respect where they earn it. On the other hand, that does not make them better than anyone else nor more important than anyone else on the water. If you want respect, give respect. I don't follow them to find the fish and I don't "mug" them to get fish when I can't catch them on my own. Likewise, I expect that they will allow me to do what I do and if our paths conflict they will work with me to avoid problems.

Captjohn5150

Guys not to break this to you the hard way but one of my passions is admirality law, it's 1:30 am as I type, I can tell you for a fact that if you have to go before an administrative admiral court your going to get butt hurt, BAD....
Why the actions of the court are not used so much is the simple fact that when you do go before a Fed court you will be leaving that court in Flames. They do not play. The fines are insane for just the slightest violation. A Commerical water mans nightmare.....a simple violation is 500 to 5000 bucks like an out of date fire extinguisher or a missing sign about garbage ect....right of way issues are best handled on the water between two vessels....where as the Commerical working vessel who is engaged in the business of harvesting seafood, who was in an area working first, known as the privaliged vessel shall have the right away over the Commerical for hire vessel, known as the give way vessel, period....I am a well known, extremely seasoned waterman. I'm also extremely well versed in maritime law...
Here are the facts, I was t there, but the fact that you get any where near a group of Commerical fishing vessels who have been working an area from before you got there gives them the right of way, all the way. Keep your distance, a little bit of common sense goes a long way.
I have been on both sides of the coin on the same day. Go out in the morning as a vessel of hire with a known pay check from 7 to 12 in the am, go back out as a Commerical fishing vessel in the mid afternoon hoping to make a pay check...been there, done that...

Capt Tommy

S

flicw209

It's the imbeciles like this that keep me from participating on these forums.

Captjohn5150

It's slack jawed googans that drive real watermen nuts...it's the true watermen who have had to put up with all you googans and your turds....stay off the water until you get it right.....rules of the road apply to everyone, follow them, period...

Diggity6186

I used to look at this forum for insight and reports.There's alot of ocean out there, and this thread is truly embarrassing for us fellow fisherman who look to the experts for their advise and reporting. Don't forget that this site's purpose is for sharing information and improving our productivity. I'm not a commercial fisherman or guide for hire, but did graduate grammar school, as you can see, and am thoroughly dissapointed with the ridiculous animosity and 5th grader attitude displayed.

Nice job anchoring lines. I'm sure your conscious is satisfied. Nice work!

notreely

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

Guys not to break this to you the hard way but one of my passions is admirality law, it's 1:30 am as I type, I can tell you for a fact that if you have to go before an administrative admiral court your going to get butt hurt, BAD....
Why the actions of the court are not used so much is the simple fact that when you do go before a Fed court you will be leaving that court in Flames. They do not play. The fines are insane for just the slightest violation. A Commerical water mans nightmare.....a simple violation is 500 to 5000 bucks like an out of date fire extinguisher or a missing sign about garbage ect....right of way issues are best handled on the water between two vessels....where as the Commerical working vessel who is engaged in the business of harvesting seafood, who was in an area working first, known as the privaliged vessel shall have the right away over the Commerical for hire vessel, known as the give way vessel, period....I am a well known, extremely seasoned waterman. I'm also extremely well versed in maritime law...
Here are the facts, I was t there, but the fact that you get any where near a group of Commerical fishing vessels who have been working an area from before you got there gives them the right of way, all the way. Keep your distance, a little bit of common sense goes a long way.
I have been on both sides of the coin on the same day. Go out in the morning as a vessel of hire with a known pay check from 7 to 12 in the am, go back out as a Commerical fishing vessel in the mid afternoon hoping to make a pay check...been there, done that...

While agree with you that this black attack weekend wannabe charter boat captain ( your coast down their is full of them) saw a bunch of real fisherman and totally got in their way. Maybe he should post his FL #s. He obviously has no idea how commercial fisherman operate and can't find his own fish.

I do have to disagree with you concerning the rules of the road. A commercial vessel trolling for kingfish can only claim to be a vessel underway. Trolling that does not restrict your ability to maneuver is not considered engaged in fishing activities.


Definitions Return to the top of the page

For the purpose of these Rules [ and 33 CFR §83-90 ], except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word "vessel" includes every description of watercraft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft, and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.

(b) The term "power-driven vessel" means any vessel propelled by machinery.

(c) The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

(e) The term "seaplane" includes any aircraft designed to maneuver on the water.

(f) The term "vessel not under command" means a vessel which through some exceptional circumstance is unable to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

Stugotz

ive read this whole post and just cant believe some of the things im reading..its real simple every vessel, rec boat, com boat,canoes, kayaks, or whatever else you can float on in the ocean . needs to respect the other vessel and give everyone their distance 100ft. and that's that. if some ignorant com boat cant get that than that's their problem. last I checked the ocean isn't owned by anyone?

Maribella

In order to steer this back to facts from ignorance

New Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some Whenever
(in order of priority)
NUC
RAM
CONSTRAINED BY DRAFT
FISHING
SAIL
POWER
SEAPLANE
WIG

Unless you are a vessel while engaged in trawling (inland Rule 26) by which is meant the dragging through the water of a dredge net or other apparatus used as a fishing appliance and show day shape consisting of two cones with apexes together in a vertical line one above the other or night lights of green over white 360's (add a masthead light abaft of and higher than the all around green light if over 50m length) you are simply deemed a power vessel if only trolling/hand lining/ live baiting and NOT restricted in your ability to maneuver.

AS FOR COAST GUARD RULES OF THE ROAD...THERE IS NO PRIORITY when two power vessels underway interact unless you are the stand on vessel in a crossing/overtaking situation

Common sense should prevail here but, let's be honest, you can't reason with an ILL mind.

If patience and evasive tactics fail and some kook tries to board your boat, keep in mind that the Castle Doctrine applies to your boat in Florida waters same as your home, car, tent, or hotel room.....:wink

A much easier approach may be to contact L.E. to investigate. Here is the verbiage to use when making that call:

Per 46 U.S.C. 2302
(a) A person operating a vessel in a negligent manner or interfering with the safe operation of a vessel so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of a person is liable to the US govt for a civil penalty up to $5,000 in case of recreational vessel or up to $25,000 in the case of any other vessel (i.e. commercial fishing vessel)
(b) A person operating a vessel in a grossly negligent manner that endangers the life, limb, or property of a person commits a class A misdemeanor.
(c)If you suspect Alcohol or Drug use may be in play, (probably a stretch to think any commercial guys drink or party while working or soon enough the night before to still test positive :grin) violator is liable for a civil penalty up to $5,000.
(d) For a penalty imposed under this section, the vessel is also liable in REM (in the event some dirt is running someone else's boat, owner of vessel is also liable)

It's a little concerning how few people know the rules of the road. It's also a little concerning the lack of respect that people show others while on the water. It's typically the weekend warrior types that are the most clueless. Combine the lack of clue folks with crusty commercial guys trying to make ends meet and it's a recipe for flaring tempers and problems. Be educated to the laws and use some common sense and respect and the vast majority of these types of problems can be avoided.

[email protected] Special

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

Guys not to break this to you the hard way but one of my passions is admirality law, it's 1:30 am as I type, I can tell you for a fact that if you have to go before an administrative admiral court your going to get butt hurt, BAD....
Why the actions of the court are not used so much is the simple fact that when you do go before a Fed court you will be leaving that court in Flames. They do not play. The fines are insane for just the slightest violation. A Commerical water mans nightmare.....a simple violation is 500 to 5000 bucks like an out of date fire extinguisher or a missing sign about garbage ect....right of way issues are best handled on the water between two vessels....where as the Commerical working vessel who is engaged in the business of harvesting seafood, who was in an area working first, known as the privaliged vessel shall have the right away over the Commerical for hire vessel, known as the give way vessel, period....I am a well known, extremely seasoned waterman. I'm also extremely well versed in maritime law...
Here are the facts, I was t there, but the fact that you get any where near a group of Commerical fishing vessels who have been working an area from before you got there gives them the right of way, all the way. Keep your distance, a little bit of common sense goes a long way.
I have been on both sides of the coin on the same day. Go out in the morning as a vessel of hire with a known pay check from 7 to 12 in the am, go back out as a Commerical fishing vessel in the mid afternoon hoping to make a pay check...been there, done that...

Wrong!

Net 30

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

Guys not to break this to you the hard way but one of my passions is admirality law, it's 1:30 am as I type, I can tell you for a fact that if you have to go before an administrative admiral court your going to get butt hurt, BAD....

Gee Cappy...for a so called Admiralty expert, you obviously don't know chit! :rotflmao

Must be embarrassing to get schooled on a public forum. Guess it's time to find a new passion!

Captjohn5150

The pecking order would be first on vessel (com fishing)is privaliged vessel, period....2 nd vessel would be give way....it is clear that the second vessel, from what I read, if I read correctly did not give way...it sounds like the give way vessel got within range of possibly interfering with fishing or catching extended gear....lets face it, I have had googans 50 ft off my rear catch my planners which extend out 250 ft dirrectly astern my vessel...that is what I'm reading in this story...a working Commerical boat that was there first, working a school of fish with gear deployed was pissed that another boat, which should know better, crossed his gear and got a much deserved show....you screw up, you take your medicine...if you don't want a show, show some respect and stay away a better distance.....give the working boat, aka privaliged vessel his room and you will not have any problems....the guys who work the water 24/7/365 know the working rules of the road more so than most.....
it comes down to ethics as well, jumping a man's school of fish and possibly hanging up gear.....
And I will take my knowledge to court over the opinions of public forum.....

Stugotz

Captjohn5150 wrote: »

The pecking order would be first on vessel (com fishing)is privaliged vessel, period....2 nd vessel would be give way....it is clear that the second vessel, from what I read, if I read correctly did not give way...it sounds like the give way vessel got within range of possibly interfering with fishing or catching extended gear....lets face it, I have had googans 50 ft off my rear catch my planners which extend out 250 ft dirrectly astern my vessel...that is what I'm reading in this story...a working Commerical boat that was there first, working a school of fish with gear deployed was pissed that another boat, which should know better, crossed his gear and got a much deserved show....you screw up, you take your medicine...if you don't want a show, show some respect and stay away a better distance.....give the working boat, aka privaliged vessel his room and you will not have any problems....the guys who work the water 24/7/365 know the working rules of the road more so than most.....
it comes down to ethics as well, jumping a man's school of fish and possibly hanging up gear.....
And I will take my knowledge to court over the opinions of public forum.....

What show are you talking about?? I'm sure it was a simple mistake if it even was a mistake. He might not be anywhere near this guy. Who knows but what show are you tAlking about. Just wondering?

SeaHunt1

No point in even trying to reason or have an intelligent conversation with this supposed captain. Obviously he is right no matter what. He has been working on the ocean since he was tadpole shaped and is one super tough guy who will "clean your clock" if you cross him and accidentally step on his shoes. Winner for sure. Just let the thread die now so he will return to his miserable life.