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Except a Man Be Born Again, He Cannot See the Kingdom of God

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  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Cultists still don't realize how offensive & hateful repeating elitist, My Way Or The Highway, rhetoric is.
    Buda wrote: »
    No matter how you might attempt to disguise, demean, dodge, or distort this truth, the fact is, and will always remain, as Jesus said, "that except a man be born again, He cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Holy Bible John 3:3)

    If there's a god, with a kingdom that can be seen, "No matter how you might attempt to disguise, demean, dodge, or distort this" fantasy, there'd never be any reason people like Gandhi & the Dali Lama wouldn't be able to see it.

    Want to "Be Born Again"? Give up your cult biases & embrace the entire Family of Man. Love your neighbor, don't tell him he's doomed to eternal damnation.
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    Considered immigrating to Israel back in the 70's, but before moving wondered how they put up & lived with the compulsive obsession of Christians wanting to be Islamic pedophiles while disguising, demeaning, dodging & distorting an avoidance-acceptance complex in seeking God as they do in this self proclaimed Christian Nation kingdom. More like a cult of left over WW II war criminals whose business interests are more geared to protecting & serving Arab terrorists that threatened to kill POTUS & in all probability nuke Israel because Muslims & burning bushes Kristallnacht for 9/11 was going to be more enlightening & profitable.
  • BudaBuda Posts: 2,062 Captain
    Fact or faith?

    Holy Bible, Hebrews Chapter 11, New International Version

    Faith in Action

    1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

    3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

    4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.

    5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”a For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

    7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.

    8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because sheb considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

    13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

    17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”c 19Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

    20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

    21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

    22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.

    23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.

    24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

    29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

    30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.

    31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.d

    32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were put to death by stoning;e they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

    39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
  • Confronted by the Bible cult called evangelicalism ...
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,351 Admiral
    Confronted by the Bible cult called evangelicalism ...

    Spoken by deniers called Roman Catholics!
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • Spineyman wrote: »
    Spoken by deniers called Roman Catholics!

    Confronted by the Bible cult called evangelicalism we have a choice: follow Jesus or follow a book cult.

    Qau9uXq.png

    And no personal attacks , please.

    Thanks.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,351 Admiral
    Lets see now. We have scripture on our side, you have nothing but a man and human tradition. Let God be true and every man a liar!

    https://carm.org/roman-catholicism-mary-idolatry

    Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Idolatry

    by Matt Slick

    maryRoman Catholics have an extremely high view of Mary and have attributed some astounding characteristics and abilities to her, such as her interceding for us, atoning for us, and delivering our souls from damnation (documented below). Protestants consider this elevation to be not only extreme but also idolatrous since they attribute to Mary what should only be said of God. Roman Catholicism responds by saying it venerates Mary and gets its doctrines on her from Sacred Tradition, which is an "inanimate thing passed from hand to hand."1 Alright, so which is it, the sin of idolatry or the blessing of veneration?

    The Roman Catholic church teaches there is a difference between idolatry and veneration. It says,

    "Idolatry etymologically denotes Divine worship given to an image, but its signification has been extended to all Divine worship given to anyone or anything but the true God . . . An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised [sic] in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them." 2

    The Roman Catholic Church has defined idolatry far too narrowly in its favor. Let's consider two things.
    Divine Worship

    First, notice that it says that "divine worship" should be given only to God. This works out to mean that other forms of worship to Mary are okay as long as it isn't "divine worship." But what is "divine worship?" After searching through the Vatican Website3 the Catholic Encyclopedia4 the entire Council of Trent5 Vatican II6 and the Catechism of the Catholic Church7 Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma 8 and the Catholic Dictionary9 the best I could find was, "Now the divine worship is directed to the glorification of God."10 That is a nice and brief comment, but it isn't descriptive enough. Why is it that in all these sources Divine Worship is not defined? Perhaps it is because offering a strict definition might make them vulnerable to criticism concerning their worship of Mary.

    Catholicism says that divine worship is for God only, yet it also says that it is okay to bow down before a statue of Mary, pray to Mary, believe that Mary delivers us from death, believe Mary atoned for us, etc., as long as you don't give her "divine worship." In other words, you can do almost anything worship-wise to Mary as you would to God--just don't call it "divine worship."
    Exodus 20:5 and "worship"

    The Hebrew word for "worship" in Exodus 20:5 (the Ten Commandments) is "shachah" שָׁחָה. Take a look at what the Strong's Enhanced Lexicon says about the word.

    "172 occurrences, AV translates as “worship” 99 times, “bow” 31 times, “bow down” 18 times, “obeisance” nine times, “reverence” five times, “fall down” three times, “themselves” twice, “stoop” once, “crouch” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to bow down. 1a (Qal) to bow down. 1b (Hiphil) to depress (fig). 1c (Hithpael). 1c1 to bow down, prostrate oneself. 1c1a before superior in homage. 1c1b before God in worship. 1c1c before false gods. 1c1d before angel"11

    Bowing down is part of the act of worship--as you can see above. Clearly, Roman Catholics who bow down before statues of Mary (and others) are risking breaking the commandment not to worship other gods and not to bow down before idols. The Catholic Church responds by saying that as long as it isn't divine worship given to Mary, it is okay. But this is nothing more than a word game. They do the same thing to Mary that they would to God and excuse it by saying that it isn't divine worship. The funny thing is that God doesn't make the same distinction as the Catholics do. God says don't do it. Don't bow down before images (Lev. 26:1).
    Idolatry

    Second, the Roman Catholic definition of idolatry used above says that "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers." Again after searching all the sources listed above, divine powers is not defined. The best I found was "divine power preserved Christ's body from corruption" (CCC 627) and "Divine power is inexhaustible," (Catholic Encyclopedia, Omnipotence). Roman Catholicism does not attribute divinity to Mary (at least, not yet), but it does attribute divine powers to her: atonement of sin12 divine access to God13 delivering our souls from death14 her intercession brings us salvation,15etc.

    Such magnificent attributes of Mary are found nowhere in Scripture. Let me say this again, none of these things are found in God's inspired Word. They are, however, said to be found in the Roman Catholic Church's Sacred Tradition. I cannot help considering what God said through the Apostle Paul about not exceeding what is written in the Word of God.

    "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other," (1 Cor. 4:6).16

    So, the Roman Catholic Church is commanded by Scripture to not exceed what is written in God's Word. Has it done that? Has it exceeded the limits of Scripture? Yes, it has.

    In the Bible, NASB, the word idol (and its cognates idols and idolatry) occurs 175 times in 162 verses. I read every one of the 175 verses, and not once did I find a reference to the idolators actually considering the idols in their hands and/or to which they bowed as actually being alive because that is what it would mean to claim that they were divine. Remember, Catholicism says, "the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers."17 But this is wrong. You see, the Catholic Church is stacking the definitional deck in its favor so as to separate itself from the Biblical teaching of idolatry and maintain its practice of bowing down before various statues and praying to saints.

    But saying the Roman Catholic Church is practicing idolatry doesn't prove anything. So, let's turn to God's word and take a look at the examples of idolatry and then see if the Roman Catholic Church practices the same thing concerning Mary.
    I D O L A T R Y
    Idolatry of in the Bible Examples of with Mary
    Altars to Idols 2 Chron. 33:15, "He also removed the foreign gods and the idol from the house of the Lord, as well as all the altars which he had built on the mountain of the house of the Lord and in Jerusalem, and he threw them outside the city." "From the beginning of Christianity special veneration was paid to the Mother of God, which in the language of theology is called hyperdulia, to distinguish the honour rendered to her from that given to the other saints. It is not strange, therefore, that after the main or principal altar, the most prominent is that dedicated in a special manner to the Mother of God; and to indicate this specific preference, this altar is usually placed in the most prominent position in the church, i.e. at the right (gospel) side of the main altar. In general it signifies any altar of which the Blessed Virgin is the titular,"18

    Bowing Down to Images Lev. 26:1, "You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God." See Joshua 23:7 All across the world, images of Mary are elevated in Feasts and Churches. In those churches, people very often bow down to statues of Mary. This is a violation of Scripture.

    Images in the House of God 2 Chron. 33:6-7, He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking Him to anger. 7 Then he put the carved image of the idol which he had made in the house of God, of which God had said to David and to Solomon his son, “In this house and in Jerusalem, which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel, I will put My name forever; Roman Catholic Churches are full of images of all sorts in, what we could call, the houses of God, the Roman Catholic Churches. The most prominent are those of Mary.

    Idols in the hearts Ezek. 14:3, "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and have put right before their faces the stumbling block of their iniquity. Should I be consulted by them at all?" Veneration of Mary is accomplished in the heart. "The Blessed Virgin, as manifesting in a sublimer manner than any other creature the goodness of God, deserves from us a higher recognition and deeper veneration than any other of the saints; and this peculiar cultus due to her because of her unique position in the Divine economy, is designated in theology hyperdulia, that is dulia in an eminent degree,"19

    Kissing statues Hosea 13:2, "And now they sin more and more, And make for themselves molten images, Idols skillfully made from their silver, All of them the work of craftsmen. They say of them, “Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!" All over the world, Catholics not only bow to statues of Mary but also will ceremoniously kiss the statue's feet. There is no record found from the Vatican that denounces such a practice.

    Making Graven Images Exo. 20:4-5, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, It should go without saying that statues and images of Mary are too countless to number within the Roman Catholic Churches around the world. If Mary is in heaven and they make images of her, then they violate the Scripture.

    Making Male and Female Images Deut. 4:15, "So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female," The Roman Catholic Church is full of male and female statues representing Jesus, Joseph, Mary, and others. They are often used in worship services, and many people bow down before them.

    Prays to Isaiah 44:17, But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god." See also Isaiah 45:20, “Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge, Who carry about their wooden idol, and pray to a god who cannot save. CCC par. 2675, "Beginning with Mary's unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries . . . "

    Request for Deliverance Isaiah 44:17, But the rest of it he makes into a god, his graven image. He falls down before it and worships; he also prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god." Par. 966, " . . . You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."

    Worshipping Images Deut. 4:19, "And beware, lest you lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them, those which the Lord your God has allotted to all the peoples under the whole heaven."

    Ex. 20:4-5, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God . . . " " . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . . " (Vatican Council II, p. 420). Statues of Mary often have her depicted with Stars in her crown, an allusion, says Catholicism to Revelation 12:1-2, " And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth." 20

    Worship of false gods

    Acts 10:24-26, "And on the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them, and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25 And when it came about that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man." Rev. 22:8-9, "And I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 And he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book; worship God."
    " . . . when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son . . . ," (Vatican Council II, p. 420).

    Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry? According to the Scripture and its own practices, yes it does.

    "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry," (1 Cor. 10:14).

    1.
    Catholic Encyclopedia, Tradition and the Living Magisterium
    2.
    Catholic Encyclopedia, Idolatry
    3.
    vatican.va
    4.
    newadvent.org
    5.
    history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.html
    6.
    cin.org/vatiidoc.html
    7.
    scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
    8.
    Dr. Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Tan Books and Publishers Inc, Rockford Ill. 1974
    9.
    Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas, Phd., S.T.D., Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Division, Huntington IN, 2002
    10.
    Summa Theologica, 2nd Part of the 2nd Part, Questions 93, newadvent.org/summa/3093.htm
    11.
    Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible: Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order, (electronic ed.) (H7812). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.
    12.
    Fundamentals of Catholic dogma, Ott, page 213
    13.
    Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914
    14.
    CCC 966
    15.
    CCC par. 969
    16.
    The Vatican Website translates this verse as, "I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written, so that none of you will be inflated with pride in favor of one person over against another."
    17.
    Catholic Encyclopedia, Idolatry
    18.
    Catholyc Encyclopedia, Altar of Our Lady
    19.
    Catholic Encyclopedia, Adoration
    20.
    Labor Pain is part of the curse and Mary is not supposed to be under the curse. Therefore she would not have felt labor pains and this could not refer to her.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • Qau9uXq.png
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,351 Admiral
    Roman Catholicism, Sola Ecclesia, Tradition, and Romans 14

    by Matt Slick

    Roman Catholicism claims to be the only true church and that it is the repository of God's Word and tradition. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church claims to tells us what the Bible really means, and its members are not allowed to interpret Scripture in a manner contrary to what the church says.

    " . . . no one, relying on his own skill, shall,--in matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine,--wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,--whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,--hath held and doth hold," (Trent, Session 4, "Decree Concerning the Edition, and the Use, of the Sacred Books")

    Protestants decry such a claim and point to Scripture alone (sola scriptura) as the final rule for everything it addresses. Roman Catholicism responds by saying it has dipped into the well of Sacred Tradition and drawn out truths that have been passed down from the apostles through the corridors of time in its halls, and since it is the "True Church" descended through Apostolic succession, it possess the authority to guide Christianity into the fullness of the faith. That is the claim. Is it Biblical? No, it isn't. But the problem is that the Catholic Church rejects sola scriptura and appeals to its own authority and tradition--Sacred Tradition that is.
    So, what is this Sacred Tradition?

    "There is a formula current in Christian teaching (and the formula is borrowed from St. Paul himself) that traditional truth was confided to the Church as a deposit which it would guard and faithfully transmit as it had received it without adding to it or taking anything away . . . This deposit in fact is not an inanimate thing passed from hand to hand; it is not, properly speaking, an assemblage of doctrines and institutions consigned to books or other monuments . . . it must be represented as a current of life and truth coming from God through Christ and through the Apostles to the last of the faithful who repeats his creed and learns his catechism," (Catholic Encyclopedia, Tradition and the Living Magisterium).

    So, tradition is a subjective, "current of life and truth coming from God through Christ and through the Apostles." This means it can't be verified or tested from Scripture because it isn't written. It is "experienced." Such ecclesiastical experience is part of the "deposit of faith" in which the RCC derives its extra-biblical teachings. It should be obvious that such a system of spiritual truth is wrought with the dangers of adopting popular Roman Catholic trends and assertions that are claimed to be "tradition." But beliefs, assertions, and papal decrees do not make spiritual truth--unless you're a Roman Catholic who has promised to believe whatever the Church tells you to believe because it is the church alone (sola ecclesia) that has the authority to guide you spiritually. Remember, the Roman Catholic Church states you are not allowed to interpret the Scriptures contrary to what the Catholic Church declares--as is cited above.
    Romans 14:1-12

    So, it is the Roman Catholic church alone that tells the Catholic what the Bible "really" means, and no one is allowed to interpret it apart from its eccliastical guidance. But, let's look at Romans 14:1-12 for a bit.

    "Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and stand he will, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. 10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” 12 So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God," (Rom. 14:1-12).

    Notice the underlined verses. God tells us that people are allowed to have differences of opinion on debatable issues. What are those debatable issues? They are dietary and worship days--two highly significant topics. If Paul tells us that each person should be convinced in his own mind, then how can it also be true that the Roman Catholic Church has to tell you what to believe? There is a problem here. If Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, really understood that the Church was to tell people what to believe, why did he write that each person should be convinced in his own mind--on debatable issues? The answer is simple. The Roman Catholic's claim to be the only true church and has the only right to interpret Scripture and reveals "new" doctrines via its Sacred Tradition is nothing more than a fabrication not based in Scripture. It is not Biblical. In fact, it is against Scripture.

    Related Articles

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    Roman Catholicism, the Bible, and Tradition
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    Who has the authority to interpret Scripture in Roman Catholicism?
    Out of Roman Catholicism: The Testimony of Bruce Edmund Gasdaska

    https://carm.org/roman-catholic-romans14
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    I am pretty sure that "My God" wants us all to attempt to get along.....

    I'm also pretty sure he wants us to live by a very small set of rules....10 of them to be exact.....with the first 4 all about him....

    I like the idea that "My God" never told me his name......as he is the one and only God that there ever was or will ever be I figure "God" is about all he needs to be called....

    He has come to many people in forms which they could understand......after all.....would a chinese really follow someone who looked like a jew...and spoke Hebrew?.....probably not.....or a muslim?......or a greek?...etc....

    I find it amazing that many people simply can't grasp that everyone is worshiping the same deity......

    I believe that the people who God will smite are those who say how right they are...and that all others are wrong...

    God judges.....not man....
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,351 Admiral
    Schmidty wrote: »
    I am pretty sure that "My God" wants us all to attempt to get along.....

    I'm also pretty sure he wants us to live by a very small set of rules....10 of them to be exact.....with the first 4 all about him....

    I like the idea that "My God" never told me his name......as he is the one and only God that there ever was or will ever be I figure "God" is about all he needs to be called....

    He has come to many people in forms which they could understand......after all.....would a chinese really follow someone who looked like a jew...and spoke Hebrew?.....probably not.....or a muslim?......or a greek?...etc....

    I find it amazing that many people simply can't grasp that everyone is worshiping the same deity......

    I believe that the people who God will smite are those who say how right they are...and that all others are wrong...

    God judges.....not man....

    I'm pretty sure the reason why you keep saying your God is because he is just that, a figment of your imagination. There is only One God and One Mediator between God and man. It is set out in His Word, both Living and Written. It has been written from a long time ago and it is the only standard wet forth for man to get back to God, there is no other.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    Spineyman wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the reason why you keep saying your God is because he is just that, a figment of your imagination. There is only One God and One Mediator between God and man. It is set out in His Word, both Living and Written. It has been written from a long time ago and it is the only standard wet forth for man to get back to God, there is no other.

    Hummmm...

    So you believe that "God"....."My God"....the one true God....who handed down to all men his "!0 commandments"...is a "Figment of my imagination".....

    wow....
  • fins4me wrote: »
    He would not hear a political message or one that inspires hate.


    You are right. He only needs to come here to read that.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,271 AG
    Spineyman wrote: »
    What does Jesus mean we must be Born of water and of Spirit

    Lets read the whole conversation to get the teaching Jesus gave Nicodemus.

    John 3:1-13: “There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? "Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. "If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

    Jesus is having a conversation with Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in accordance to the Pharisee’s teaching- to be born of water meant to be born physically. This is proved by Nicodemus remark who thought to be born again meant a physical birth “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born? In verse 5, Jesus proceeds to say, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee, believed like the other Jews that because he was born a Jew and kept God’s ordinances that he should automatically enter into the kingdom of God. However, Jesus explains this is not enough. In verse 6, Jesus Himself interprets the water as flesh (a physical birth) "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jesus says of being born of water is to be born of the flesh. Jesus explains the difference, telling Nicodemus you have already had a physical birth, you are in need of a another birth “Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' Literally from the Spirit above to enter the kingdom. You must be born again “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The new birth from above is a second birth which gives us eternal life

    V.5 The new birth is invisible, he likens it to the wind. It is not from the water beneath (the flesh) but of the Spirit (literally, in the Greek, from above). He is contrasting the natural (flesh) to the spiritual (Spirit).

    There is always a distinction between water and Spirit baptism. Scripture tells us that John came baptizing in water but that, “There is one who will come after me. . . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mk. 1:7-8; Mt. 3:11; Jn. 1:33). The flesh and the spirit are two different properties, two different things. So there are two births- one of the flesh and the other of the spirit that comes from God. John 3:6-7 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

    The term born of water is used only once by John but the term born of God (the Spirit) he uses numerous times.

    I Jn 4:7: “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” This is the love of God shed in a believers heart by believing the gospel.

    I Jn 5:1: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.” This of course has to do with the gospel.

    I Jn 5:4: “ For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith” The new nature of the spirit of God has our affections change toward God and not toward the fallen world.

    I Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. ”

    I Jn 5:18: “We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.” There is life change where one lives more in righteousness than they do in the old way of life in sin. John explains this in I Jn 2:29: “If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him” And Paul teaches this through the book of Romans especially chapter 6-7

    Romans 7:6 “But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.”

    The Bible teaches that a man is “born of God” (Greek- EK - out of). This description occurs four times in John’s epistle alone, 1 Jn. 3:9, 4:7, 5:1,4. In all the instances where the source of the new birth is mentioned, the language is EK Him, EK God, or EK Spirit. John 1:12-13, we receive Christ by believing in His name, “not born by the will of man . . . but of God.” Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God uses creation (born of water) as part of conveying the new birth. The Greek preposition (“out of”) is never used elsewhere in connection anything else but its source which is God Himself.

    In John 3:3, the term “born-again” literally means “to be born from above,” is what happens by Jesus sending His Spirit to those who respond to the gospel. The very essence of regeneration is by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is an unseen work that one receives when they believe, they are then sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13).

    Born of God” To be begotten of God- to have his life, that is eternal along with the characteristics born anew is to love God and will certainly translate in loving the brethren. 1 Pt.1:22; 2 Pt.1:3 tells us we have been given His divine nature v.:5-8 “But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

    The context of Jn. 3:5 must be related to Jesus’ previous statement in Jn. 3:3 :“Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” There is only one new birth mentioned in this verse and it is from the Spirit as other Scriptures uphold. John 3:6-7: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again. .”’

    http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp67.htm

    As I said, it speaks of the flesh dying and the spirit being born. It is about death.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    Confronted by the Bible cult called evangelicalism we have a choice: follow Jesus or follow a book cult.

    Qau9uXq.png

    And no personal attacks , please.

    Thanks.

    Teaching Christian cults to be better Muslim pedophiles under Islams' Koran towards Jews is a personal attack on America; but it doesn't matter in the supreme swastika up Uranus court business for them to to repeat a 1930's Kristallnacht with Muslims & this Christian Nation churchstate cops to nuke Israel for 9/11. All dressed up in white as a eunuch of Arab oil & no where to go but watch jihad masses rejoice in not being subject to under God as ChristHitlers. A master race of walk on the water & kill with ethnic cleansing; smiling all the way in buying a pyramid stairway to almost heaven as Christian science is laughable & so beyond psychologically warped.
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    Schmidty wrote: »

    I find it amazing that many people simply can't grasp that everyone is worshiping the same deity.....

    Truth in advertising of one nation under God is so bogus when KKK churchstate cops dictate time & time & time again like a broken record there's drugs in a synagogue & Rehnquist's Christian nation reichquest dictates one must attend . Seems after all the years of attempting avoiding Christian drugs wars against America just as Kristallnacht started; it's still all organized crime as if their pedophile acts of patriotism don't work they'll just drug you like on a British PBS detective show novel; then with their Kingdom of Jesus fabrications.
  • MACDMACD Lee CountyPosts: 4,962 Captain
    like a broken record

    Hmm....
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    MACD wrote: »
    Hmm....

    Far to late in warming up to not believe in faeries ....that rule like a kingdom over the dumb.....

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hmm
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 11,755 AG
    MACD wrote: »
    Hmm....

    Where did you find that? My eyes were glazed over, or maybe I took a nap?
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,351 Admiral
    cadman wrote: »
    As I said, it speaks of the flesh dying and the spirit being born. It is about death.

    It is about the only way to eternal life. Not death.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • cadmancadman Home of the Gators Posts: 33,271 AG
    Spineyman wrote: »
    It is about the only way to eternal life. Not death.

    That requires the flesh to die. Once the body dies, the spirit can live forever.

    Mini Mart Magnate

    I am just here for my amusement. 

  • bronconutbronconut Posts: 13 Greenhorn
    That's a struggle that you must deal with, we all have struggles in life. You have been given the answers to your struggles, interpret them as you will.




    I believe the common Christian colloquial is...

    We all have a cross to bear.

    Or

    A bear to cross....

    Depends on your religious affiliation.

    Ha
  • Bimini TwistedBimini Twisted Posts: 11,444 AG
    You are right. He only needs to come here to read that.

    Or any GOP debate.
  • dave44dave44 Posts: 11,755 AG
    Or any GOP debate.

    Or even a debate where a candidate says her biggest enemy is the GOP? That counts too, now that you mention it.
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    Spineyman wrote: »
    It is about the only way to eternal life. Not death.

    McHeils' navy of the vatican is the only eternal life in a Christian nation in serve the Pope spreading the pedophile doctrine virus propaganda of Jesus so churchstate cops can traffic in death with drugs from the Latino Christian invasion over & over & over again; which it's Federal Lynching state of hate drug trafficking churchstate cops became 9/11 for Christian control of Islam's drugs resulting in yet more of Americas' holy costs. They're so careless as they could care less about controlling any other business outside of dream police with every form of tyranny over the mind of man for disposals in their kingdom of God & superegos of ethnic cleansing thru Christ certainly puts a swastika on top of the nations Capitol.
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    Schmidty wrote: »
    Hummmm...

    So you believe that "God"....."My God"....the one true God....who handed down to all men his "!0 commandments"...is a "Figment of my imagination".....

    wow....

    Who could have guessed there are really that many Islamic terrorists masquerading thru a charade as Christians of the political churchstate in a Christian nation helping Muslims to kill as it's a figment of an imagination in the Kingdom of God......Hmmm
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    bronconut wrote: »
    I believe the common Christian colloquial is...

    We all have a cross to bear.

    Or

    A bear to cross....

    Depends on your religious affiliation.

    Ha

    Looks like a new improved version of the old Christian version of the Kingdom of God; where they're still nothing but colloquial common lab rats of Islam spreading the word of being Muslim pedophiles is what to live by or being Islamic terrorists to keep the façade of one trick ponies with their lynching enforcement keeping their drug trade flowing so there's nothing to see with everyone blind. Must be a perplexing decision for Christians to be in the Kingdom of God; as part of the problem or part of the solution. Pedophile or terrorist, with lynching enforcement to keep them on the path of God killing.
  • BudaBuda Posts: 2,062 Captain
    cadman wrote: »
    That requires the flesh to die. Once the body dies, the spirit can live forever.

    Explain that to us please.
  • BudaBuda Posts: 2,062 Captain
    bronconut wrote: »
    I believe the common Christian colloquial is...

    We all have a cross to bear.

    Or

    A bear to cross....

    Depends on your religious affiliation.

    Ha

    This is the explanation to our struggles on the earth out of God's Holy Word. Romans 8:28

    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
  • saltydancindavesaltydancindave Posts: 1,255 Officer
    Buda wrote: »
    This is the explanation to our struggles on the earth out of God's Holy Word. Romans 8:28

    And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    Not even a shame this USA Fourth Reich Kingdom of God is nothing more than a not so holy trinity of practicing Islamic pedophiles, Muslim terrorists & lynching enforcement working together for world domination as megalomaniacal homicidal sociopsychopathic suicidal drug lords.
    Convincing people there's another purpose must be a struggle.
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