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A question on red fish and preservation

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  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Darcy wrote: »
    Go away troll.
    Shut up Darcy, this is between men.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Redfish is not a commercial fishery, Art. They are a federally protected species, thanks to the efforts of CCA. Opinions voiced by commercial fishermen to their commercial representatives have no value as a basis of policy as you well know.

    There is no evidence of a decline in redfish populations and no concern expressed by staff biologists caused by recreational take much less from catch and release tournament fishing , which has declined with the economy.

    There is evidence of a continuing recovery of the species in the eastern gulf. http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02755947.2014.920737

    Those increasing populations are coincidental with the limitiation of take to recreational fisheries.

    eY27YDk.jpg

    Evidence shows that eliminating redfish as a commercial fishery improved the population and trends show a continued improvement.

    http://gulfcouncil.org/Beta/GMFMCWeb/downloads/BB%20AUGUST%202010/G%20-%204%20Report%20of%20the%20Red%20Drum%20Working%20Group.pdf

    http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/fish/red-drum/red-drum-spawning/

    The 2015 stock assessment of Red Drum, Sciaenops ocellatus, in Florida

    by David Chagaris, Behzad Mahmoudi, and Michael Murphy
    Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
    Florida Fish and Wildlife Research Institute
    100 8th Ave SE St. Petersburg, FL 33701

    Executive Summary
    ◾This report assesses the status of the Red Drum populations found in four regions along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of Florida. Red drum population dynamics are described for the period 1950-2013 utilizing all available information on catch, effort, relative abundance, and size/age composition.

    ◾Recreational harvest of red rum dropped sharply during 1988-1990 following large harvests of Red Drum in the early 1980s especially in the NE and SW regions. From 1991 to 2008, recreational harvest of Red Drum remained fairly stable in the SW, NW, and NE regions but slowly increased in the SE region. Since 2009 recreational harvest has increased in the NE region but remaining at stable levels in the other three regions. The estimates of number of Red Drum harvested (type A+B1) annually during 2009-2013 averaged 75,094 fish in the NE region, 118,532 fish in the SE region, 159,054 fish in the SW region, and 146,960 fish in the NW region. The number of Red Drum captured and released alive (type B2) by anglers were higher on the Gulf coast than the Atlantic. The estimates of B2 during 2009-2013 averaged 0.8 million fish in the NW region, 1.4 million fish in the SW region, 0.6 million fish in the NE region, and 0.5 million fish in the SE region.

    Lengths of most Red Drum landed by recreational fishers during 2010-2014 were between 44cm (17.3 inches) and 72cm (28inches) total length. During the period 2010-2013, lengths of released fish were mostly larger than 30cm (11.8 inches TL) on the Atlantic coast and 14cm (5.5 inches TL) on the Gulf coast. Discarded fish as large 116 cm (46 inches TL) were common on both coasts.

    Trends in the recreational catch rates (number fish/angler hour) from the MRFSS/MRIP intercept data indicate that there has been a general increase in CPUE of Red Drum in the NE and SE regions since 1990. Catch rates in the SW and NW regions were variable with no strong trend since 1990, however the 2013 estimate in the NW is the highest in the time series.

    ◾The relative abundance indices generated for young-of-the-year Red Drum were variable with no significant trend in all four regions, and high values predicted in the NW and SW regions for 2014, and the NE region during 2013. Estimates of sub-adult indices fluctuated with slight increasing pattern (especially in recent years) in all regions except for the NE region, where sub-adult indices are flat at a relatively low level.

    ◾We developed a Stock Synthesis model (SS3) to assess the status of Red Drum populations in Florida waters. The model was run from 1950 to 2013, accounted for 8 ages (0-7+), 2 selectivity time blocks, and was fit to catch, CPUE indices, length composition, and size-at-age data. Model diagnostics demonstrated convergence on a global solution and no retrospective
    patterns. Furthermore, reference points and stock status predictions were robust across a range of steepness values.

    http://myfwc.com/research/saltwater/stock-assessments/finfish/red-drum-2015/

    There is no evidence or concern expressed by FWC in the strictly recreational fishery to warrant any further rulemaking. There are efforts to increase the recreational take. CCA and FGA oppose them.


    There is evidence of our friend here resurrecting a 6 year old issue first reported by members of the Southwest forum and which the FWC reacted to as evidenced above, as a red herring.

    These anti-recreational fishing boogeymen surface from time to time here (the accusations of the unfairness of the net ban as an example) on FS by recalcitrant commercial fishermen bitter at the loss of their income which created the need for its sector closure.

    The last part is my opinion based on evidence we all can see right here. :wink
    Gary, I think you misconstrued my comment, I was only suggesting that Dan may have offered up his own opinion based on HIS views, not FWC's.

    I was also pointing out that while Kyle wears several hats he is also part of the Commercial Outreach program.

    That is all.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    I will also add that FWC personnel are asked to participate by private groups (not sanctioned) for guidance and/or vetting of proposed rule changes to policy.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • DarcyDarcy Posts: 1,711 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Shut up Darcy, this is between men.

    :rotflmao
    You shut up.
    You started it.
    Go take ANUMBER2 and release all that tension built up inside of you.
    "No i'm NOT Darcizzle!":blowkiss


    https://captainsforcleanwater.org
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    FIFY.. for the GOMFMC:blowkiss

    Opinions voiced by rec fishermen to their rec representatives have no value as a basis of policy as you well know.




    slow pitch..
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Darcy wrote: »
    :rotflmao
    You shut up.
    You started it.
    Go take ANUMBER2 and release all that tension built up inside of you.

    lol, you have a nice evening sir.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • DarcyDarcy Posts: 1,711 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    lol, you have a nice evening sir.
    You also sir.
    No hard feelings here.
    All good.
    "No i'm NOT Darcizzle!":blowkiss


    https://captainsforcleanwater.org
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Darcy wrote: »
    You also sir.
    No hard feelings here.
    All good.
    Same here.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • This is why we can't have nice things.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • DeniseDenise Posts: 83 Greenhorn
    Wow this has derailed
    Gary with friends like you who need enemies
    Dan did not voice an opinion it was brought up as a suggestion by a concerned charter captains family member at an fwc meeting you obviously never cared to attend.
    Abusing your power on here to bash people is sickening, some things never change.
    My rant to you has nothing to do with you but now that you brought it up maybe I should share it.
    First and mostly I would never want to see anyone suffer the way I have through the years being oppressed with lies and deceit so I will leave the persons name out of this.
    My brother went out at 1pm last Thursday on his boat with his dog. Never returned at dark. We went looking for him all night. I was up way over 24 hours and with all I've seen on the water and all the missing boaters in sw Florida my mind thought the worst. I called the coast guard while we where getting more gas to continue our search. On the way in we passed a local charter captain. The coast guard immediately dispersed planes and boats. I was about one minute from calling 911 on myself I couldn't breathe I was over come with anxiety (if you ever had to make that call and the questions they ask you isn't pleasurable but necessary). A kyacker 3 hours earlier found my brother paddled 3 miles to a boat who cranked up and left. Than he proceeded to go to a local charter captain who assured the kyacker he would help. The charter captain never did we passed him on our way in. A 30 second phone call to 911 would have surfaced. The kyacker saw the search planes and remembered my phone number from 3 hours earlier I immediately called the coast guard and the boats deployed in the area I believed him to be found him before I could get there. He was thrown from his boat and it was 40'feet in the mangroves. Had the charter captain had just called 911 when the kyacker explained the emergency it could have one saved a lot of tax payer money and two saved a lot of people stress. Now defend your charter captain and attack some more people, you thrive on that. If that is a professional is I don't want to be one.
    No one knows the species here more than the men and women who work these waters daily. Red fish is over fished in Sw florida and during the summer and spring many weekends we have numerous tournaments at one time. Holding a slot red in a tank all day to get a trophy is ludicrous imho of course. The wake of dead red fish is sickening. That sir is a fact. Of all people who claim victory over red fish populations I would be concerned
    I've been in this game long before you came here and your blatant disregard for every one and every thing is disgusting.
    The red fish are being exploited by everyone and I sir find a tragedy.
    I personally will take pictures to bring to the commissioners this spring and summer you know why because I care plain and simple.
    I was treated with the utmost respect at the meeting and guess at? A lot of recreational fishermen sided with us, you should have been there but I would have felt sorry for the fwc staff had you been.
  • PilchardPilchard Posts: 1,373 Officer
    A lanyard and life jacket would have kept your brother safe.

    Redfish are just fine.

    If you could fish redfish commercially, would you still be so concerned about their well being?

    Seems you are upset that someone from the recreational side is profiting from a resource you don't have commercial access to.
  • PilchardPilchard Posts: 1,373 Officer
    What happened to the dog?
  • I don't understand how the thread was derailed, Denise.

    As has been demonstrated by the FWRI, NMFS and independent research, your insistent concern over the damage caused to the redfish populations by recreational fishing is unfounded.

    The species is being managed solely as a recreational fishery. There is no evidence available to suggest that recreational fishing methods or recreational fishing at all is harming it in any way.

    In fact the opposite appears to be true.

    All indications are the population in all regions is stable with an increasing CPUE. There are also indications that the 40% SPR target is being met with that increasing effort and in consideration of unusually cold water conditions and seasonal HAB outbreaks.

    Elimination of the red drum as a commercial fishery is fundamental to that population meeting those population targets. Secondarily, elimination of inshore gill netting also ensures that here is no risk of juvenile fish entrapment and subsequent mortality to drive that SPR target downwards.

    FWRI's mission is to manage red drum as a sport fish. They are very successful at doing so. It is important part of the Florida economy and is estimated to generate $10B in annual revenue in the Gulf region.

    Without that managed recreational use and the economic driver there would be no need to manage it at all. Eliminating recreational fishing is the only way to promote a greater growth in populations and that will not happen nor will it not return it as a viable commercial commodity.

    That ship has long sailed and sunk.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    Let's keep the discussion to the fisheries issues and refrain from getting personal everyone please.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Just a question Gary, looking back at that graph it appears that the rec and commercial take in 1986 was aprox 18-19 million lbs.
    At that point the old MFC put restrictions on all harvest for fear of losing the fishery.

    It appears now that the rec fishery is approaching that peak harvest and there doesn't seem to be any alarms going off.
    To me that would point to recruitment levels of juvenile fish being strong and less mortality of the offshore breeding stock as opposed to greater harvest of slot fish.
    Do you agree?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Red drum and sport fish are not regulated to the parameters that commercial fish are. So there is no regulatory criteria for weight which quota systems are developed to divide take between the recreational and commercial sector. The graph merely reflects trending.

    Since this is a single user system and involves catch and release, the populations are determined by a combination of intercept data and sampling of juveniles to determine the SPR. The SPR is the key determinate of the population.

    Snook populations are estimated the same way.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Red drum and sport fish are not regulated to the parameters that commercial fish are. So there is no regulatory criteria for weight which quota systems are developed to divide take between the recreational and commercial sector. The graph merely reflects trending.

    Since this is a single user system and involves catch and release, the populations are determined by a combination of intercept data and sampling of juveniles to determine the SPR. The SPR is the key determinate of the population.

    Snook populations are estimated the same way.

    I'm sure FWRI takes into account that us commercials are allowed 2 fish per day as bycatch, even if we can't sell them and are counted into the rec take.

    That being said, allowing the sale of the 2 fish per day wouldn't cause undo harm to the stock, IMO
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • I'm not certain of the calculation of incidental take from commercial activity.

    I would guess that is considered as a variable.

    I am absolutely certain of this.

    68B-22.005 Bag and Vessel Limits; Sale Prohibited.

    (5) Sale of Native Redfish Prohibited – The purchase, sale, or exchange of any native redfish is prohibited. This prohibition, however, does not apply to legally harvested non-native redfish that have entered the State of Florida in interstate commerce. The burden shall be upon any person possessing such redfish for sale or exchange to establish the chain of possession from the initial transaction after harvest, by appropriate receipt(s), bill(s) of sale, or bill(s) of lading, and to show that such redfish originated from a point outside the waters of the State of Florida, and entered the state in interstate commerce. Failure to maintain such documentation or to promptly produce same at the request of any duly authorized law enforcement officer shall constitute a violation of this rule.


    I am absolutely sure that there will not be a commercial fishery reestablished for red drum. Especially in consideration of the concern a commercial fisherman has expressed here regarding the devastation to the population caused by the current recreational effort.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    We came really close a couple of years ago... and I know the rules...

    So, IF the bycatch is included in the overall take, why shouldn't they be sold?
    Do you think that if all commercial fishermen sold their two fish per day then we might trigger a stock collapse and shut the fishery down?
    If the fishery is that fragile then two fish per day is too much.. IMO

    A dead fish is a dead fish is a dead fish...

    Do you think that the potential for abuse is the reason to prohibit the sale?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • No, its because recreational fishermen are very happy with the red drum recovery due to the exclusion of commercial sale. There is no projection available to forecast the consequence of commercial take on the fishery , much less the prospect for abuse which is a considered given.

    The prospect of creating another dual sector take scenario involving a switch to weights and measure and quotas necessary for conversion of a now easily managed sport fishery to commercial has little appeal and support. The small profit to a relative few and jeopardizing that $10B sport fishing industry to re-create another blackened redfish boom is not only very unattractive to those who recognized the disaster and worked to reverse it would be insane to revisit.

    I'll repeat myself and say that the current regulatory landscape excluding a commercial component is your creation, Art. We fixed the fishery and now you are asking to benefit and profit from those efforts.

    Excuse me for a moment....





















    :rotflmao









    Sorry.

    I am afraid ( and I'm not) that you will need to be a much better salesman and much braver than I am to present that to the commission.

    The success of the present policies and program has resulted in an unprecedented recovery of the fishery. Suggesting that this single sector regulatory plan be replaced with a more complex indefensible one requiring more study, more data acquisition, validation, summarization and rulemaking argument, compliance and enforcement is without justification and unachievable, regardless of your creating the problem to begin with, Art. IMHYEO
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    We all fixed the fishery by sacrificing...

    I'll never forget that day in Tallahassee when the old MFC promised that if we all (comm and rec) shared the pain then we would all share in the gain...

    I guess that promise has been forgotten.

    Tale of two cities here.
    My next door neighbor is a rec fisherman, fishes every day (weather permitting), doesn't like redfish but really likes blue and stone
    crabs.
    He gives me 8-10 redfish per week, I use them for crab bait.

    Another neighbor is a mullet/crab fisherman, he keeps his 2 reds per day.
    He uses his for crab bait also.

    A dead fish is a dead fish, why not let the commercial guy sell his two per day?

    The net ban took care of the juvenile by catch as well as the targeted breeding stock catch so there is nothing standing in the way of commercial sales except public perception..:grin
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    We all fixed the fishery by sacrificing...

    Oh, sacrificing... :grin Thank you so much for your selfless sacrifice!

    You cannot sell your two fish per day, because you can't possess two fish per day. How can you sell something that you don't have?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • DeniseDenise Posts: 83 Greenhorn
    When red fish was taken from the commercial sector (the publics avenue to provide their share of a publicly owned resource) the recreational industry harvested 70 percent commercial 30 percent. Go back and do your homework Gary. Revisit some of the old florida sportsman magazine and read Karl's victory report it makes me sick.
    I've harvested my fair share of them (only a few fishermen from each fish house harvested them or had the gear to catch them, takes a lot more skill and knowledge to harvest them commercialy) but I've come to terms with my glory days are behind me and I'm cool with that. Been there fished that, one thing you can't take are our precious memories.
    Mark my words the red fish are in decline and I have extreme respect for our researchers but I know what I see and it isn't good.
    Limit yourselves before it's too late.
    I don't eat red fish personally but I darn sure enjoy catching them on a rod and reel.
    As a side note we are exploring options of starting a coop of charter captains for displaced commercial net fishermen. Some things money can't buy and that's experience.
    See ya on the water not behind a desk!
  • Denise wrote: »
    Revisit some of the old florida sportsman magazine and read Karl's victory report it makes me sick.

    I recall your unpleasant and uncomplimentary correspondence appearing in FS as well as here.

    I am very aware of the history of the fishery, Denise and happy to have participated with Karl and CCA in designating red drum as an exclusive sport fishery.

    I appreciate the reminder and credit given to FWC and the recreational community for effecting the much needed change in eliminating the threat to its success and its subsequent recovery.

    Best of luck to you in your future endeavors.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Oh, sacrificing... :grin Thank you so much for your selfless sacrifice!

    You cannot sell your two fish per day, because you can't possess two fish per day. How can you sell something that you don't have?
    NW zone here is 2 fish per day, and we can keep our recreational limit under our SPL as we can snook and bay scallops.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • kellerclkellercl Posts: 6,347 Admiral
    "There is no evidence of a decline in redfish populations and no concern expressed by staff biologists caused by recreational take much less from catch and release tournament fishing , which has declined with the economy.

    Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?209775-A-question-on-red-fish-and-preservation/page3#ixzz3yN8Trlp6"

    Fair enough, though I will say I'm shocked by the results. In the Charlotte Harbor reds, in my experience, are absolutely in the decline. Decline as in big time. I went from catching a few a day to not having seen one in 18 months. On the flip side I keep hearing people say snook are still in danger, yet I can find shoals of them with ease. My experience has been the complete opposite, but I accept I am only fishing a small area during specific times of the year. Perhaps it is worth nothing, but for me..... snook are doing better than reds.


    “When you're good at something, you'll tell everyone. When you're great at something, they'll tell you.”

    -Walter Payton
  • ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    We all fixed the fishery by sacrificing...

    I'll never forget that day in Tallahassee when the old MFC promised that if we all (comm and rec) shared the pain then we would all share in the gain...

    I guess that promise has been forgotten.

    Tale of two cities here.
    My next door neighbor is a rec fisherman, fishes every day (weather permitting), doesn't like redfish but really likes blue and stone
    crabs.
    He gives me 8-10 redfish per week, I use them for crab bait.

    Another neighbor is a mullet/crab fisherman, he keeps his 2 reds per day.
    He uses his for crab bait also.

    A dead fish is a dead fish, why not let the commercial guy sell his two per day?

    The net ban took care of the juvenile by catch as well as the targeted breeding stock catch so there is nothing standing in the way of commercial sales except public perception..:grin

    You can use a protected game fish for crab bait? Yo might check the regs on that one.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    You can use a protected game fish for crab bait? Yo might check the regs on that one.
    I can and do.
    No possession limit at my house (freezer) and since I run a 3 man crew (plus me) we are allowed 8 per day per vessel.
    I can also take my 2 redfish per day by legal seine under my SPL.

    Better use than flower food.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,775 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    I can and do.
    No possession limit at my house (freezer) and since I run a 3 man crew (plus me) we are allowed 8 per day per vessel.
    I can also take my 2 redfish per day by legal seine under my SPL.

    Better use than flower food.

    Good for you...........us recreational sportsman don't mind that a couple red fish are winding up as bait for some crabber.

    After all untold thousands of crabs all over Florida are being harvested every year and used as red fish bait, long before they are even close to being of a size big enough to harvest and sell in the commercial crab fishery.

    Redfish bait is better use than crabber beer money.:grin
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,692 AG
    Good for you...........us recreational sportsman don't mind that a couple red fish are winding up as bait for some crabber.

    After all untold thousands of crabs all over Florida are being harvested every year and used as red fish bait, long before they are even close to being of a size big enough to harvest and sell in the commercial crab fishery.

    Redfish bait is better use than crabber beer money.:grin
    I can sell the undersized crabs too, $1/each every spring to the bait houses down south.

    It's a easy 10k every spring.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
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