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We're talking past each other on several points. First, its incorrect to presume I'm still concerned about harvesting less deer under the ARs. As I've stated previously in another thread, I no longer am worried about it. Nearly all of the bucks I and my family kill would not be protected under the new ARs. That's great for me, but it begs the question as to what the point of the ARs really are and whether I'm going to reap the benefits at other hunters expenses. If the ARs are needed, I can only presume there must be this army of small spike killers out there that I don't come in contact with. Which leads to the second point where we are talking past each other. In the context of this poll, we've been given a choice between spikes/forkies and mature bucks. A mature buck is not a young 4 point, or a 6 point, or even an 8 point, but a buck physically aged to at least 4 1/2. If I have to rely on mature bucks for my meat harvest, it isn't going to happen. A shot at a mature buck is a once in a season event. A shot at a spike is easy. A shot at a young 4-8 pointer is just as easy. The poll lets me choose between spikes and mature bucks. Wherefore spikes would be the only thing I could rely on to get meat. In reality, its the 110-120lb 4-8 pointers I'm talking about which are the young dumb bucks that make up the majority of my harvest. Which again demonstrates that the point of the poll is to frame the question in such a way that anyone would feel compelled to agree with it and allow the argument to be made that "well, if the majority of hunters would rather shoot mature bucks, that means they support ARs". Its a trick based on how the question was framed. What you'd prefer to harvest, and what you realistically WILL harvest, are two different things. Realistically I can stack spikes all season long. I can also stack immature 4-8 pointers all season long. What I can't do is stack mature bucks all season long.
As I have said else where, the ARs are here and I'm giving them a chance. Prove me wrong with the results. For the record, my stance is that 1) they aren't reasonably enforceable on private land and private land owners will be tempted to poach what they want, and 2) most of the bucks being killed now will still be killed now, as its actually the young 110-120lb 4-8 pointers making up the bulk of the harvest, always have been and always will be, because they are the stupid ones. I will eat crow gladly if the ARs make a big positive difference. But I will expect the proponents to do the same if 4-5 years from now we haven't seen a significant improvement in buck age structure harvests.
Just curious, do you have similar info/charts for another area? The reason I ask is that for Hungryland, I would attribute some of the positive results shown in those charts to the addition of 9 Gems and Culpepper to the hunting area.
David, the aging was done via jawbone and cementum anuli testing as per the controls of the study. Aging was done correctly.
This has been my point (and FWC's point) exactly. It is a win-win if only folks could get it into their heads that it's not about limiting opportunity or taking away from the hunter but rather about adding to the resource and the enjoyment of the sport.
I agree to a point. However, one of the most often cited statistics has been a lack of new hunter recruitment and retention. Given the attention span of most kids, many hunters identified increased opportunity for youths to harvest a deer as a key component of that new hunter recruitment and retention. I and others on DMTAG have expressed concerns for abuse without some limitation on the total harvest by each youth hunter. However, staff feels that the total harvest number will not be siginificantly impacted with this rule exception. Further, the logisitcal nightmare that would be required in order to enforce such a limitation is next to impossible.Time will tell and I hope for all our sakes and the sake of the deer that it is something livable.
I had you pissed off at hello.
I'm willing to bet that 99%(minus gottheitch) grew up in an environment of killing whatever they saw walk to one of selection on what to harvest as they become more seasoned as a hunter.
I'm also willing to bet that a lot of us knew a lot of people who now are more concerned with protecting or preserving the future of the sport, and put in a whole lot more than what they get out of it.
We are going to make poachers out of a lot of people who rely on deer to subsidize their meal tickets in a lot of areas.
Nobody seems to brag too much about areas that have had AR's in place for quite some time as hot spots,but maybe they are? For trophy racks,but not maximum sustainability/harvestability?
I don't have no kids but I know for sure me not killing a deer never would have stopped me from still hunting . The kids being out in the woods normally is good enough for them . 2 sets of rules is not a good thing .
Yes I do. Here are a sampling from all over the state. Pay particular attention to the last one, Richloam. Originally the APR there went from the 5" rule to a forked horn. You'll notice that after the initial drop in the first year, the harvest rebounded to almost identical numbers as pre-APR. What's interesting though is that the percentage of 1.5 year old bucks being harvested was not significantly impacted. After further study, herd characteristics show that in order to protect that 1.5 year old age class, a 3-point on a side or 10" main beam APR is needed. All that the forked horn APR did was to high grade the 1.5 year old age class of bucks.
CORRECTION: I misread the data on RICHLOAM BAIRD. It was not a forked horn rule but a 3-pt rule implemented on Baird unit. There is no high grading as the purpose of the rule is to protect at least 70% of the 1.5 yr old age class of bucks. The 3-pt APR accomplished that by protecting 71% of the age class as opposed to only 66% pre-APR.
I had you pissed off at hello.
I was not picking on you or the way you hunt. I was simply using your comments to show the difference between perception and reality.
And as far as I'm concerned, from a trophy standpoint, a mature buck is over 5 years old. From a QDM standpoint, 3 years and older is the minimum age for harvest.
I had you pissed off at hello.
Appreciate it, thanks
This is a false statement. No one is turned into a poacher by rules. Poachers choose to break the rules because they are poachers. Further, if you have to subsidize your meat consumption with wild game, then you're wasting money and time. It's far cheaper to buy cheaper cuts of farm raised meat or to raise your own livestock for personal consumption than it is to rely on wild game.
The average price for a side of beef is around $600-$700. It costs more than that to hunt for a season in license and gas expense alone.
That's just a dumb and untrue statement. APRs have nothing to do with trophy racks and everything to do with sustainability and increasing the herd size, age class and health of the deer.
I had you pissed off at hello.
Fair enough. :beer
Baird Unit.
I had you pissed off at hello.
all year.
And if they don't they wont starve , It amazes me how people just cant deal with change . no saying you but just in general .
Then you know how to stop it
bold assumption.
how so . we all have the means if your willing to do it .
Not necessarily. Loose lips will sink ships. If a poacher brags about it enough...his time will come. I know for a fact of at least one that bragged a little bit to much. One phone call from an anonymous source and he lost his hunting privileges for 5 years........:wink
Translate please
IF SOMEONE IS THAT WORRIED ABOUT PEOPLE POACHING and bothers them that much all they have to do is make a few phone calls to make a difference . Don't complain about it if your not willing to do something about it .
read above