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thanks for the reply, mannn123. But, the move being considered by the Council is not to be precautionary and to go to the big limits they can for gag, based on the assessment results vs. backing off from anglers' accounts of "something is wrong". I'll be the first to admit, I have no experience with grouper fishing, but a buddy who lives/fishes in west central florida told me that last year, the gag were shallower than normal, but they were there if you looked outside your normal spots. Not gone, just moved. Again, anecdotal evidence.
Based on what my buddy told me, and he's been fishing for them for years, these two species (gag/red) seem to be cyclic with big ups and downs. So assessments may be done with data available only thru a down period, so its doom and gloom in forward projection, but by the time change happens, they are on the upswing so cuts make for closures as the fish spike ....... or vice versa ...... the assessment is done on a spike but by the time the rules get changed, the fish are declining and increases in catch levels only make matters worse.
You think that is a fair comment? Like I said, I only get this from a buddy (anecdotal).
So how would you set the quota in numbers??? Biomass is estimated in lbs...
I understand the questions about the est avg lb per fish for recreational angler but without a solid number of gulf red snapper anglers, ain't no way to set a quota based on numbers.
It's just voodoo Bob and you know it.
As I noted in my last reply, a quota could be set by number. But that number would be based on the biomass output of the assessment divided by average weight, which is how numbers got translated to biomass to do the assessment. Complete cancelling.
For example, red snapper rec quota this year is what? about 7 million pounds (divided by 2 components). Average weight is about 8 pounds, so you could set a quota of 7,000,000 divided by 8 (too lazy to get the calculator out). Same difference (catch in number per day or catch in weight per day). And A#1 is right; without knowledge of number of anglers, its kinda moot. Besides, numbers of fish means tags (whatever 7 million divided by 8 is).
And with the delays in MRIP, which was never designed to be a monitoring tool, you wouldn't know what was caught in June until August, and what was caught in July until October. MRIP is the problem; and I don't mean its data - I mean its forced improper use as a quota monitoring tool for a species with a short season. It seems to work ok, if the season is several months or most of the year; gives you something to project with. It doesn't work for a few day season. I applaud the states for trying to develop something more real time, and working with NMFS to make sure the numbers seem reasonable.
This is actually something we can agree upon. Greg Stunz has launched the iSnapper program for the private recs - I think it needs to be implemented for ALL recreational fishermen, whether they fish from a private, charter, or headboat. I'm not necessarily talking about replacing the current system, but providing a redundant system that standardizes the data collection instead of the fragmented mess we have now (MRIP, Beaufort Headboat, TPWD).
It would also dovetail nicely with the states taking over management of the fish coming into their ports.
Here is an article by Dr. Shipp that supports this;
http://www.al.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/05/red_snapper_buy-in_when_states.html#incart_river
The issue remains inequitable use of units...
Imagine if the commercial fisher was only allowed to catch 100 fish, but the quota was 500 pounds
Now if all the fish play nice and stay at 4 pounds....no problem, but if the stock is recovering and 1 year they are 3.96, then 4.54, then 7.26 and then 8.63 you can easily see that their is a problem.
Recreational anglers are numbers.. 2 fish per person for approximately 250k people in the GOM.
That is 500k fish.
The quota set is 5.12mlbs with a 20% buffer or 4.096mlbs.
As long a the fish stay under 8lbs no problem, but as soon as they reach or exceed 8lbs....problem......
The above numbers are based on Red Snapper Analysis for the pounds versus number issue (it was what I had in hand) but the concept is easily transferable to any fishery that is limited by pounds but the activity is regulated by numbers....
Another way to look at it is:
2 guys catch 4 fish.
Guy number one catches a 20lb and 15 lb for 35lb
Guy number two catches a 5lb and an 8 lb for 13lb
Both anglers took their limit but they are hardly equal.
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
If this is true, then each angler would get 2 red snapper PER YEAR, assuming they are 8 pounds and under, using the current quota numbers, correct?
Would people be for fish tags if you only get 2 per year or would you rather stick with the egregiously low season of 10 days?
Guy One is a better fisherman and therefore is rewarded with better catches. :grin :grin :grin
Guy One may have better spots from spending more time on the water, thus spends more money on a recurring basis.
Guys One may have prepared better by catching live bait.
Guy One may have used better tackle, spent more money on better gear.
Guy One may have a bigger boat allowing him further range to better spots, thus spending more money on gas and boat maintenance.
Guy One probably paid more per net pound per harvested grouper than guy two, therefore guy two should give guy one half of his fish.
USCG 100t Master, Assist Tow, 200nm Coastal
Marine Surveyor, SAMS, ABYC, IAMI, FMIU
Wilson Yacht Survey, Inc.
MRFSS/MRIPS estimates 239,000 trips that are either a target for red snapper or resulted in a harvest of red snapper
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
I think the last presentation I saw was that weights were beginning to level off, and not climbing like they were. Oh sure...... some get 15-20 lb fish, but a lot of nearshore stuff is down in the 4-5 lb range, so its all leveling out.
This thread was about red grouper, but I want to make sure you're talking red snapper...... someone asked specifically where you got your red snapper trips, and you were talking 8 lb fish ...... I'm assuming this is all about red snapper, not red grouper.
I just looked at the recently approved 2015 red snapper TAC regulatory amendment. It had 2 tables: 1 for targeted trips, the other for catch trips. Catch trips table attached here. Your 250K trips seems to be for west Florida only?? Or were you talking red grouper?
One thing is for sure; you can sure see where the new sampling design for MRIP, implemented in 2013, had a big effect on the private mode catch/effort!! That again reinforces what we all know; MRIP is not designed to be a quota monitoring system, it never was, and never will be.
How about you spell it out plain and simple for us, per your chart during the 9 day 2014 recreational season, how many anglers would of had to have fished each day to equal those numbers?
Furthermore, teh majority of recreational anglers (i.e. registerd anglers with FWC saltwater licenses) have full time jobs and are considered "weekend warriors". that results in fishing only 4-5 of those 9 days. lets rerun those numbers again with a 5 day quota and see if those number really make any sense at all.
USCG 100t Master, Assist Tow, 200nm Coastal
Marine Surveyor, SAMS, ABYC, IAMI, FMIU
Wilson Yacht Survey, Inc.
You have illustrated the issue quite well...
You see 80% of us are guy #1 and catch the 4, 5, 6 pound red snapper. Either through lack of skill, numbers, or equipment.
Only about 20% are guy #2 with loads of time on the water, better numbers, or equipment.
So in our data sampling methodology if the 20% happen to receive a higher sampling rate, catch is over estimated. No under stand, only about 586 samples across the GOM for any given wave (2 month period) are used to produce estimates.
Now if Joe the ramp surveyor sees a 31 Contender coming to the ramp and a smaller center console, the protocol is to approach the first vessel making the landing, but it has been noted, the this is not always the case. Especially if those farther up the food chain are looking for more data on a specific species. (it was noted that this need caused the spike in red grouper data in 2004/2005) and may be causing a skewing of the data for red snapper.
The only proper way to do this sampling is to have a completely blind process, one that is unaware of a trip's origin, type of equipment being used or any visual clues as to the avidity of an angling party.
This is best accomplished with a NADB (National Angler Database) and to randomly select email addresses to send web portal survey request, augmented with snail mail or other request to provide sampling. The goal is to completely remove any surveyor bias form the equation.
In the early 2000's a single sampling from LA almost shut down AJ for the entire GOM, because some yahoo told a surveyor he caught and release over 300 AJ on a single trip....this data sample almost was included in that years estimates, if not for someone eventually questioning the validity of that report.
Survey materials must be viewable by the interviewee and the public in general if they choose.
We have the technology and ability and budget, it just needs to be directed in the proper direction.
"10% of anglers catch 90% of the fish, and 90% of those become guides" (My granddaddy)
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
It is leveling off because more people are forced off the federal water and into the inshore waters.
Another example of how over manipulation and regulation by regulators can cause serious issues with data availability and quality.
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
Approx 45,000 per day
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
Let's not beat up Buddha, I think he is saying the numbers are crap.
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
I'm just the messenger. The numbers in the recent amendment approved by the Council don't match what you said. I was just curious how you got your number (you said MRIP website), but that table (cited as from the MRIP database) doesn't even come close to your number.
I know there is an MRIP page, and I have queried it in the past, but is 239K what it really says? Cause that table in the amendment sure seems to contradict that.
Whose?
"Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick
"All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
Therein lies the problem with the Rec Sector.
MRFSS/MRIPS
While one system replaced the other (first it was MRFSS, now its MRIP) all that happened was a fresh face was put on a system that was broken.
Both the Commercial and For-Hire Sectors (both Gulf and SA) have hard fast numbers on who is targeting species.
Recreational is a WAG based on the number of license holders. Because you hold a Saltwater Fishing License you are included in the number of anglers participating in all fisheries that license covers.
MRIP uses extrapolated data based on intercepts (dockside/phone) of reported catches.
Florida at least has a stamp system that is used to narrow the scope of participants (Lobster, Snook).
The numbers used by the bean counters would be shifted greatly if we would go to a permit based system that would be low cost to the vessel owner and would actually identify better who is participating in the fishery.
A Reef Species or Red Snapper Permit that would be based on the NMFS HMS permit.
For those that don't know about that, it's a online permit that you punch in your data, pay your $22 and print your permit. Bang, now they have a real number to use for participants in a fishery.
Will there be folks that catch and keep a RS that aren't permit holders? Of course there will be. But there is no way to account for illegal fishing.
A world renown Scientist and I had a conversation a few weeks back in which he told me, "Rob, we need to better regulate all the illegal fishing that happens."
I'm sorry, but how smart do you need to be to understand that there is no further regulation you can have to illegal fishing. You've regulated it so far as making it illegal?!
Fish Tags for RS were the brainchild of George Gieger and furthered by CCA.
Tags do nothing to identify who is participating in the fishery, only who is allowed to participate in the fishery. Just like Sector Separation for the For-Hire guys in the Gulf and Catch Shares for the Comms.
The root of the problem is the Rec Sector participation. Identify who is participating in the fishery.
One of the big reasons that I fully support a Fl Shore Fishing License. At least you removed some of those that would normally be counted in the offshore fisheries.
Rob
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
When I say it to the Feds, they look at me as if I have 3 eyes.
Grrr
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
I think I agree with you 100%, except for your statement about Geiger/CCA supporting fish tags. Maybe they did, but they have now come out adamantly opposed to fish tags. But they want to change the catch levels from pounds to fish..... and that requires tags (ironic, huh?). Maybe my tag is a 4 lb'er, and yours is a 15 lb'er, but that is the idea of fish tags. Its numbers of fish.
Sure....... its got its flaws..... who gets them? who issues them? who monitors them? Those are big questions.
All I did was copy a table out of the most recent amendment, which doesn't jive with Bob's number. I don't know which is right, and I'm asking..... I assume the number crunchers for the amendment, who used the same data, didn't screw up. Just wondering where Bob got his number.
His premise is correct. But you have to back premise with the right numbers.
"Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick
"All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
You forgot the two biggest questions, who pays for them and who pockets the money?
Feel free to relay that message to us pigeons just as soon as you get the word.
Sounds like somebodies idea of a "flawless" shell game con to me.:grin
How many are printed?
How are they distributed?
How many does each rec angler get?
Is there a fee associated with the tag?
If so, where does the money go to?
I see the proponents of fish tags eager to promote them yet do not see one shred of evidence why they should be supported.
How many are printed?
How are they distributed?
How many does each rec angler get?
Is there a fee associated with the tag?
If so, where does the money go to?
I see the proponents of fish tags eager to promote them yet do not see one shred of evidence why they should be supported.
Why not answer your question by the way the State of Texas Distributes deer and turkey tags and where that money goes. These are not really hard questions, they all could be easily addressed and worked thru if the recreational lobby wanted to address them. At this point they don't. Its all a catch share right?
When the subject first came up... The tags were going to be available at Walmart.
A single distributor that was/would be, able to control how many were issued. And they had to be purchased in person, at the Walmart counter.
As you may understand, I live 160 miles away from a Walmart... which I wouldn't spend my fuel to drive through their parking lot, let lone to purchase a RS tag from.
But if we say you can catch "X" number of them, and issue "X" numbers of tags... If you have paid money to catch a RS, and you only get as many as you've paid for... who's to say that you don't catch the Comm industry 7lb RS... and then catch a 25lb RS... Which are you going to put a tag in?
In the South Atlantic, Rec fishermen are allowed a total of 523 Snowy Groupers to be caught from North Carolina to Key West, Florida.
With that range of area, and the amount of anglers... how do they know when 523 have been caught?
As a member of the SAFMC Snapper Grouper AP, I can tell you that for scientific research they caught more than the total allowable catch for ALL recreational anglers.
I asked who's allocation those catches counted against, and was told no ones... 3 wks later, the Recreational Sector was closed because it was estimated that we had caught more than our allocation.
So, you do the number crunching.
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
Huckleberry... I'll be your Huckleberry.
So far as I can tell, and I may be wrong, and I'll live with that.... You come across as an agitator. Not unlike those protestors that were paid to inflame the Ferguson or Baltimore riots.
If I'm wrong, I'll stand in the light of day and admit it.
If I'm right... Your days are numbered.
Sincerely,
Rob
Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.