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Ol Mucky
Posts: 5,629 Admiral
Red grouper set to move to 2 per day May 7th
Ol Mucky
Posts: 5,629 Admiral
The red grouper recreational bag limit will change from four to two fish per person in Gulf of Mexico state and federal waters, excluding Monroe County, on May 7.
This change was approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) at its November 2014 meeting.
The Commission hopes that this change will allow for a longer recreational red grouper season in federal waters, which closed early in 2014 because the recreational catch limit was exceeded in 2013. The two-fish bag limit was initially requested by Florida anglers<-- We did???? and for-hire captains to help maximize fishing opportunities for red grouper, especially during late fall.
To learn more about red grouper catches, visit MyFWC.com/Fishing and click on “Saltwater,” “Recreational Regulations” and “Gulf Grouper.”
This change was approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) at its November 2014 meeting.
The Commission hopes that this change will allow for a longer recreational red grouper season in federal waters, which closed early in 2014 because the recreational catch limit was exceeded in 2013. The two-fish bag limit was initially requested by Florida anglers<-- We did???? and for-hire captains to help maximize fishing opportunities for red grouper, especially during late fall.
To learn more about red grouper catches, visit MyFWC.com/Fishing and click on “Saltwater,” “Recreational Regulations” and “Gulf Grouper.”
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Replies
From what I got out of listening to some of the Council discussion and testimonies, folks were pissed that red grouper closed in Oct. Everyone complains about inseason closures, and the four fish bag limit caused one. That left the southern florida charters without a trophy fish during snowbird season. The Naples recreational angler groups all supported 2 fish to keep the season open to the end of the year.
Funny thing is, if you go read the comments on regulations.gov www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=NOAA-NMFS-2014-0153, some people opposed it because they associated this reduction as a penalty like red grouper was declining. Couldn't be further from the truth, from what little I know about your west florida fishery. I guess those folks either don't fish in the Oct-Dec. period, or didn't care it closed in Oct., or didn't understand the issue.
Issue.
Flawed data = bad management decisions. That is the issue.
There are more worm bags out there than you can shake an ugly stick at. Put on a mask and tank and go look for yourself.
Not me.
"Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick
"All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
that's my point. the last stock assessment showed a recovered stock. There are apparently plenty of fish, and a four fish limit caught the quota too fast and caused an inseason closure, which negatively affected rec fishing, especially in south florida. so, to slow harvest, the Council cut the bag limit back down so the fishery stays open all year.
Let me get this straight, "recovered stock, plenty of fish cause,... the quota to be caught too fast." Sounds to me like they should be raising the quota instead of reducing the limit, but then we are talking about NMFS, and when have they been known to use logic.
sigh........
they did raise the quota (a bunch) based on the assessment. You don't raise the quota without an assessment, and in the southeast, assessments are done every few years, not annually like they are in the northeast and northwest (which gets all the attention....... apparently, the southeast is a red headed step child in terms of getting sufficient funding to do annual assessments).
But with raising the quota, they increased the bag limit to allow greater harvest. The big bag limit led to too much catch and an in-season closure, even with the increased quota.
geez....... how hard is this to understand?
Very easy to understand that the NMFS is the poster child for "overzealous micro-management = total gross mismanagement".
The Council could have left it at 4 fish. They reacted to the requests and recommendations of the public.
FWC, 4 southwest FL fishing clubs with over 700 members, and about half the commenters (recreational anglers) for the proposed rule supported the reduction.
I just skimmed the Council minutes from October where they took final action. While comments focused on red snapper, there were numerous private and for-hire folks who also commented in support of increasing amberjack size limit and reducing the red grouper bag limit.
No comments opposing the reduction were posted to the Council's web site.
If you don't like it, you should have spoken up. All the Council heard, time after time, person after person, was to reduce the bag limit to avoid an inseason closure.
So your suggesting that the council actually listens to "Public Comment"? Seems like AM 40 should have never made it to the docket if that were true since time after time and person after person said No Way!
What seems like "Support" is often just choosing the lesser of 2 evils, since no good alternative is given.
The current quota system is a joke plain out. Its a death spiral where a fishery can get so healthy that an eventual ZERO day season will eventually arrive.
Recreational anglers being blamed for catching their quota early all assumes an accurate and reliable effort number being used.....and biomass estimates. We know that's far from reality, so it needs qualified as the NMFS "Claims" its happening and since their is no truly independent review on the data and collection methodology, we are left to "Trust" them.
Doc, just curious, but if you would share, how did you answer? reduce the bag limit to get a full year fishing or shorten the season to compensate for additional catch of a 4 fish bag limit? That would basically be the two options available to the Council, other than raising the size limit, which only increases discards.
As Mr. Hexler suggested, it appears the quota could be increased as reds appear to be that abundant, but to do that requires another assessment.
If they do a new stock assessment, we are going to be in for some bad news. The Big Bend red grouper stock was decimated by the extensive offshore red tide last summer. Those fish were under relatively little fishing pressure and had become super abundant over the last 4 years. Because of the extensive flat hard live bottom between 50 and 120 ft, they made up a substantial part of the GOM red grouper biomass. Since they manage the whole Gulf as a single population, I'm certain that the stock estimate will go down significantly which will affect the TAC.
Now, if they decide to lengthen gag in June, that could change the thought process.
More than made up for south of Aripeka. Put on some tanks and go count noses.
As a biologist, I'd like to see a new stock survey. But as a fisherman, not so much.
Ahhh, no. The representative sample from your region flaws your analysis. Again, south of Aripeka out to 125 ft - more than enough. West of Econfina River to Texas, no issues. NMFS data is bent. The reduction is BS. Again, stop dropping the "go-pro", go put on some tanks, do some real science and look for yourself.
REAL Science! Now that is a refreshing concept. Seems that the powers to be have become too reliant on the old concept of SWAG.
Scientific Wild A_ _ Guess.
And look where that has got us!
No one has said that red grouper, on the whole, is in trouble. Just the opposite. Doc is noting what is happening to his local area. But with lots of fish, the quota was filled faster, leading to an inseason closure, which impacted South Florida apparently. FWC supported this action.
Y'all rave that the states should take control of red snapper because of mismanagement by the feds, but now you argue against a reduction that the state endorsed. And if it had been under state control they would have done the same thing.
mannn123 ........ the Council is currently about to complete an amendment to increase the gag quotas, which will really expand the season; maybe to all year. What say ye, if that happens? Still want to hold reds to 4? you seemed to indicate no.
...where can I read about this specific amendment?
Jack;
Here in lies a big part of the problem and why CPUE needs to be the driving element in setting management decisions.....
Now not only were red grouper more plentiful making them easier to locate, but they were bigger (sound familiar) which meant that even though we did not catch more fish, we reached the quota faster because fewer fish equaled the quota rate than before.
One of the biggest flaws in recreational management is the dichotomy of datum.....Setting person limits by number and total limits in pounds....You can use one or the other but not both....
The next is the failure to adjust the quota based on abundance indices....When the CPUE increase this means that more fish are being caught with each drop of the hook, this indicates that abundance is increase and if size is increasing, then over all stock health is increasing, which means that when inappropriate accountability measures are applied, we get shut down (even in a thriving and healthy stock).
NMFS needs to learn a bit more about management and the laws of natural selection and supply and demand...
They are managing for the wrong target and focusing on angler take over stock health and ability to sustain a certain level.....
Using this scenario, there will come a time, when they get it wrong in a bad way and cause a complete fishery collapse.
Here's a quick glance at fish size
2013 RED GROUPER 5.949824773
2014 RED GROUPER 6.476085445
The fish were almost a half pound larger, in reality we caught fewer fish.
2013 RED GROUPER 455,125
2014 RED GROUPER 283,363
By almost half, yet we exceeded the quota.....
They just don't get how to manage a recreational fishery.
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
Trigger fish will follow these same lines but its going to be way worse.
"Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick
"All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
I assume you're looking at MRIP landings on the national site. As I understand it, those numbers get modified by the Center in Miami to adjust for certain things MRIP doesn't account for, plus, that doesn't account for headboat or TX (although red grouper in TX should be zero?, but headboat would be something). According to the NMFS/SERO web site, preliminary landings for 2014 are:
Landings: 1,589,262
ACT 1,730,000 92%
ACL 1,900,000 84%
closed 10/04/2014
So, based on your numbers, in 2014 (which if based on the MRIP site don't account for headboat), the catch was 1.835 million pounds; somewhere between the ACT and the ACL and larger than the NMFS estimate of 1.59 million pounds.
By your numbers, in 2013, the catch was 2.7 million pounds. The NMFS/SERO web site says 2.3 million pounds was caught in 2013 and those are final numbers. So you're saying the recs caught more than NMFS estimated and you're not including headboat? Either way, the 2013 catch was over the 1.9 million pound ACL, which triggered monitoring for an in-season closure in 2014.
If I understand it right, final 2014 landings are available about this time of year, so those values will probably increase and be about right on target. Red grouper is fished to the ACT, so shutting a fishery down at 92%, based on preliminary landings, is not that far off, considering final landings will be higher.
Either way, you're saying landings by the rec sector, by your calculations, were larger than NMFS says they are. So, I guess I have to ask what is your point?
Didn't the Council just recently approve fishing to the ACL?
Without saying that they should reduce from 4, on a personal level, it would not bother me at all to go from 4 to 2 if gag season was expanded significantly. However, its my understanding that a few anglers (not sure from what regions) have reported to the Council and FWC that gags may not be so abundant based on their recent trips and lo and behold, anecdotal evidence from a few anglers is suddenly treated with great respect and importance...despite the existing data before them. In all my previous experiences, such anecdotal reports from anglers were always completely ignored.....go figure.
My analysis was to show that increases in fish size, unfairly causes us to meet quotas based on pounds, when individual limits are set in numbers...
Imagine if commercial quotas were set in numbers, but individual limits set in pounds....
It is like say everyone gets a steak, only some steaks are 22oz and other are 4oz...... but we run out of steak at 100oz.....
https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
Ah, gotcha! I get your point; numbers equal fishing mortality. But, I don't know that would make any big difference. As I understand it, the assessments generate weight from numbers X avg. weight (for rec I assume since commercial reporting is all in weight). So, to get back to the numbers you want, they would just use avg. weight, making it a wash. It would still be whatever number of fish (vs avg. weight of fish) are estimated to be caught per day to generate a season. Seems like it would be two paths to the same point.