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Gulf States Unveil Solution to Red Snapper Management

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  • ericfericf Posts: 463 Deckhand
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Red Snapper don't migrate???

    If pelagics are the wanderers of the ocean, they are the homebodies... Sure they will move at times and have spawning patterns, but pelagics basically don't ever stop moving.

    I think it will be interesting to see what channels light up in opposition to this.

    Tight Lines,
    Eric Fosbender

    Team Googanator

    2006 Bull Dolphin 22 with 250 Etec
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,688 AG
    surfman wrote: »
    No, they move around but they don't run from FL to Maine in summer and winter. Some I am sure would call any movement migrating but I wouldn't.

    I wouldn’t even call the king fish run a migration, sure they move from the northern gulf to the southern gulf to avoid the cold and technically that is migrating but, I would call migration more of leaving one area as a unified pack or school and traveling a great distance like across the country or from one hemisphere to another, not just moving into shallower water and out into deeper water, that is not migrating to me.

    Put is another way they should only concern themselves with HMS fish. How about that?
    Is there a distance requirement for a fish to be considered migrating?
    Who determines the difference between migrating and weekend jaunts?
    I understand the HMS deal, but if you and CCA think that all those 6-7lb ARS off Tampa grew to that size/quantity in a year or two then you really don't have a clue.

    They migrated here... Duh.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 5,982 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    I understand the HMS deal, but if you and CCA think that all those 6-7lb ARS off Tampa grew to that size/quantity in a year or two then you really don't have a clue.

    Where did I say that? Duh! I migrate to work every morning, Duh!

    MS are you laughing yet?? :)
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,688 AG
    surfman wrote: »
    Where did I say that? Duh! I migrate to work every morning, Duh!

    MS are you laughing yet?? :)
    I don't think you migrate from Texas to Tampa every day?

    Or even Alabama to Crystal River....






    Again Einstein...

    Is there a distance requirement for a fish to be considered migrating?
    Who determines the difference between migrating and weekend jaunts
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,688 AG
    Y'all think about all them years when there weren't ANY ARS(zip, zero, nada) off the west coast of Fl.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,554 Captain
    True! Up until a few short years ago we had virtually NO American reds in the Central Florida area. We now have a good number. Theory is they followed the pipe line. A very healthy fishery is being reported from all five Gulf states. So what if we can't fish them! Every year NOAA increased our poundage, but shortens the season. Only in NOAA land. To thrive our fishery, or what was once our fishery, must be strictly regulated. However, said regulations MUST be based on real up-to-date science; not greed.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,771 Captain
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Y'all think about all them years when there weren't ANY ARS(zip, zero, nada) off the west coast of Fl.

    And while Y'all are thinking about it, think about how many more shrimp trawlers were plying the Gulf back then.:grin
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 11,688 AG
    And while Y'all are thinking about it, think about how many more shrimp trawlers were plying the Gulf back then.:grin
    And then go back to the seventies when the shrimp fleet boomed and the ARS were plentiful in 65' off of Dixie county.
    While were at it lets go back to the Cuban Fleet days.. I'm sure you remember.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,771 Captain
    Naw let's not go back.

    Let's move forward into a new era of sound and science based fisheries management, for the people, by the states, with the most valuable use of the resourse for the majority, and not for just a select few.:)
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    One of the funniest things I saw was when Dr. Bob Shipp asked the simple question; "If the artificial reefs offshore of Alabama (which have been responsible for about 40% of ALL recreational red snapper landings in the Gulf each year for many years) are not PRODUCING these snapper, then exactly where are they being ATTRACTED or "migrating" from?"

    The enviros hired a scientist from LSU to provide the answer; The red snapper being caught in the Alabama reefing zones have been "migrating" from natural reefs on Texas offshore banks across the Gulf to Alabama artificial reefs!"

    I had to call this "scientist" on the phone to speak directly with him since I couldn't believe what he was actually claiming. The best "science" (based on predetermined outcomes) that money can buy I guess.!

    If this is true, then they must be walking across all of the snapper stacked up in the narrow strait of suitable water depth off of the Mississippi delta as they make their way onward towards the Alabama reef zones....yeah, right.

    To answer Number1's query, the snapper off of the western coast of Florida were brought there, by and large, by the "reshuffling of the deck" currents that occur with hurricanes Ivan and Katrina, at least according to Dr. Shipp. The natural gas pipeline also played a role - the one that extends from Dauphin Island to Tampa Bay - the pipeline with the limestone mitigation piles was in effect an artificial reef several hundred miles long.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,537 Captain
    Naw let's not go back.

    Let's move forward into a new era of sound and science based fisheries management, for the people, by the states, with the most valuable use of the resourse for the majority, and not for just a select few.:)

    Amen!
  • bay20bay20 Posts: 1,490 Officer
    Question I have is, are the Charter guys having some problems getting this sector separation done in Washington seeing lots of stuff on Facebook and doesn't seem like its working to their liking right now. Anyone know about this?
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,554 Captain
    :nono Not all charter boat owners are for sector separation. As an example, Captain Mark Hubbard, owner of Hubbard's Marina, owns and operates two charter boats & two head boats. Captain Hubbard is strongly against Sector Separation. He has been fighting it for years. Mark says that even though it may be good for his business; it's not good for fishing. Many see Separation as a divide & conquer scheme orchestrated by the EDF.
  • bay20bay20 Posts: 1,490 Officer
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    "Gary Jarvis of the Destin Charter Boat Association said he speaks for all charter boat fishermen when he said “we do not want states to have control of federal fisheries.”

    This guy doesn't mind lying one bit - there is NO WAY that this joker speaks for ALL charter boat fishermen.

    ATTENTION ALL GULF RECREATIONAL ANGLERS:

    The GSRSMA is a big deal and it is our best hope. One thing that we can all do ASAP is contact your governor and key elected officials to express support for state management. We are hearing that the EDF/CFA crew is simply hammering those offices in opposition and they are the only ones officials are hearing from. Our state guys stuck their necks out on this one and so we need to do everything we can to stand behind them on it. If you can get your key people to begin reaching out to their reps, it would be the best thing we can do at this point.
  • Mackeral SnatcherMackeral Snatcher Posts: 11,606 AG
    ...."Gary Jarvis of the Destin Charter Boat Association said he speaks for all charter boat fishermen when he said “we do not want states to have control of federal fisheries.”


    It's really difficult to be sad, pathetic and funny all at once But I believe he pulled it off.

    Dude(and another one of his cronies who's name escapes me) was a class A jerk back at the sector separation meeting in Tampa(yes, he was in my little group they separated us all into)..........pushing his agenda, pushing his agenda, blah blah blah.
    With Roy sitting there nodding his head.:mad

    I gotta go now, I'm having flashbacks:willynilly
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • Mackeral SnatcherMackeral Snatcher Posts: 11,606 AG
    BTW, Gary I know your reading this.
    PLEASE feel free to reply.
    Either here or in a PM.
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,554 Captain
    :devil Say NO to the Jarvis gang!

    Jarvis speaks for a very few who see only possible short term advantages for them; the hell with everyone else. Gary Jarvis speaks for Gary Jarvis.
    Rest assured EDF's NOAA will be out in full force against state management of our fishery. EDF controls what was once our fishery; they want to keep it that way.
    Directly from EDF:

    Help Reach Our $1 Million Goal
    Your donation will be put to immediate use achieving our concrete, actionable goals for 2015.

    We have been seeing way too much ''immediate use" in EDF's push for Shares/Separation. Shares/Separation, limited access PAID fishing.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Looks like it is explained so simply a child could understand it to me.:shrug

    "The Plan would include an initial three year prohibition on any actions that might affect individual fishing quotas or management structure of the commercial fishery, effective from date of adoption by GSRSMA. During this period, NOAA Fisheries through the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council would continue to manage the commercial fishery under existing regulations."

    "In order to establish the GSRSMA, the management of red snapper must be vacated from the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council Reef Fish Fishery Management Plan and any provisions that have been established for red snapper with that plan or any amendments to that plan. "

    Is it perhaps that you don't like what it states (in the second paragraph I referenced), that makes it hard for you to comprehend?:rotflmao

    Your quote is exactly my point.

    1) The IFQ is to remain, but
    2) all management of red snapper must be vacated from the Council and the FMP.

    Those are conflicting statements. The Council/NMFS can't manage the IFQ if its not in the FMP.

    So its not so simple.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    surfman wrote


    I really don’t see the problem with states managing their own fishery, I don’t see the need for any “boundary” either, that would be unenforceable and unnecessary. I also don’t see states setting up regulations that would be hard to manage or enforce. No need to set boundaries, every boater has a state registration and license that is the regulations that would be enforced, there would only be “Issues “ at or near the state borders which would happen even with set boundaries just like it is now. Your boat must abide by your states regulations and I could see state fisheries managers working together and coming up with reasonable regulations that would work. If you trailer your boat out of state and want to fish under other states rules then you would be required to get that state’s permit just like you would need to do anyway.

    They certainly couldn’t do worse than the fed. The fed will never get it right, not the data not the regulations none of it.

    The fed should not be managing snapper and grouper, they should only manage migratory fish like tuna, period.

    I am referring to waters outside of the states’ waters and I also think that all gulf states should get the same 9 mile boundary. In other words if you fish within the states territorial boundaries (9 miles) then you are under the sates rules outside of that you are in the Gulf of Mexico, and go by the state that you are landing your catch in.

    you do realize you have just described the Council's plan for regional management, and said you support that concept? Where you fish isn't an issue; its where you land - that is where your fish come off a quota.

    And I agree; its unfair some states get 9 miles; some 3. But from what I hear, only Congress can change that.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    And while Y'all are thinking about it, think about how many more shrimp trawlers were plying the Gulf back then.:grin

    except when the shrimp fleet declined, red snapper recruitment didn't increase in a reverse trend. Other species did, but not red snapper. Some consultant put out a paper on that, saying its called compensatory mortality. By increasing the other fish feeding species, basically those baby snapper just suffered a different fate than dying in a shrimp trawl.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,585 Captain
    BubbaII wrote: »
    except when the shrimp fleet declined, red snapper recruitment didn't increase in a reverse trend. Other species did, but not red snapper. Some consultant put out a paper on that, saying its called compensatory mortality. By increasing the other fish feeding species, basically those baby snapper just suffered a different fate than dying in a shrimp trawl.

    That's because juvenile snapper have an extremely high natural mortality rate, so even if they escaped the shrimp trawl, there was an extremely high probability that they would be eaten anyway. That's nothing new. That's why artificial reefs play such an important role in increasing red snapper numbers; Reef zones become de facto "no trawl" areas due to obvious reasons, and the structures provide haven for juveniles to escape predation and increase their survival rate. So, the juvenile red snapper, shrimp, crabs, flounder, etc. that would have died as shrimp trawl bycatch are allowed to thrive and the structures help them keep them from being eaten.

    A win-win for the red snapper and other species as the ecosystem is built from the bottom up.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 4,554 Captain
    ARS_zpsn8tvc557.jpg
    Mark W. sent the following to Rubio, Nelson, Miller, and Governor Scott. Please pass it on to as many of our representatives as you possibly can. It's time to take back OUR fishery!

    I am writing to request your support of the recently developed state based plan to manage Gulf Of Mexico Red Snapper under the "Gulf States Red Snapper Management Authority". Florida and the other Gulf states have proven to be highly successful at fish and wildlife management in a way that conserves natural resources while allowing for reasonable public access.
    The states' plan is predicated on transferring management authority away from the Gulf Council and the National Marine Fisheries Service. Management by the states is the only solution to the current unaccountable and mismanaged federal system of fisheries management. The gulf states are among the nation's leaders in marine fisheries management. Under this new management structure, each state would have authority to manage red snapper out to 200 miles off its coastline. Each state would be responsible for developing and implementing a red snapper management plan for its waters, which would be approved by the rest of the states.
    I am confident that the Gulf States Red Snapper Management Authority management outcomes will align with the health of the resource and angler access to it. Mark W.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,771 Captain
    BubbaII wrote: »
    1) The IFQ is to remain, but in 3 years control of it and all things commercial related to red snapper will revert to the GSRSMA and they will have sole authority to extend, amend, abolish or do whatever they vote to do with it and all things related to red snapper management both commercial and recreational.

    FIFY Simpleton.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,771 Captain
    BubbaII wrote: »
    except when the shrimp fleet declined, red snapper recruitment didn't increase in a reverse trend. Other species did, but not red snapper. Some consultant put out a paper on that, saying its called compensatory mortality. By increasing the other fish feeding species, basically those baby snapper just suffered a different fate than dying in a shrimp trawl.

    Well let me say this as plainly as I know how and maybe you can understand it.

    The majority is no longer interested in "some consultant's opinion" or in King Roy's minions opinions or even in your opinion Mr. BubbaII.

    We are ready to put our fishery into the hands of the capable "state employed" fisheries biologists, and get all the politicians, lobbyists, and paid report writers and number crunchers out of it.

    I hope I put that simply enough that even you can understand it.:grin
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Ive never caught a red snapper in my shrimp trawl. Who on here has? Yes I own a commercial Skimmer boat that trawls the bays and estuaries around Mobile bay.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,771 Captain
    Ive never caught a red snapper

    That puts you in good company with most of the crew at NMFS currently deciding all the management rules.:grin
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 5,982 Admiral
    Ive never caught a red snapper in my shrimp trawl. Who on here has? Yes I own a commercial Skimmer boat that trawls the bays and estuaries around Mobile bay.

    I would be shocked if you did too, red snapper are not too common in bays and estuaries.

    No Bubba it is not exactly like what you are saying, NOAA still calls the shots in their proposed regional management scheme. They still put us all in the same category. The red snapper fishery off of Texas has little to do with the red snapper fishery off of Florida. NOAA needs to get completely out of managing snapper and grouper.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 5,982 Admiral
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    The enviros hired a scientist from LSU to provide the answer; The red snapper being caught in the Alabama reefing zones have been "migrating" from natural reefs on Texas offshore banks across the Gulf to Alabama artificial reefs!"

    So Tom, basically this expert the enviros hired is claiming that all red snapper migrate to this one particular area off of Texas to spawn and then they migrate back to where ever they came from to live, sort of like salmon, except salmon usually die as a result of that effort. Is that what he was trying to claim? Wow that is amazing!!
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    FIFY Simpleton.

    But the Council/NMFS can't manage what isn't in their FMP. If ALL red snapper regs are removed from the FMP, then the IFQ is removed to. Ergo, the statement that the IFQ would be managed for 3 more years is in conflict with what you quoted. What aren't you understanding here?
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