Home Conservation Front

Snapper season is a Monday

Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
The 2015 red snapper season is a Monday.

It doesn't just start on Monday June 1st, it also ends of Monday June 1st.

Yet, the newly created for-hire sector, historically responsible for a minority of the rec landings, are gifted 33X more days to fish than every other American Gulf recreational angler is given.

I guess their arcane models show that we would overfish our quota if our season was a Saturday.

We have officially arrived at the peak of the insanity called federal fisheries management.
«1

Replies

  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Link ???
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • jad1097jad1097 Posts: 9,611 Admiral
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Tom Hilton wrote: »

    LOL....... I just read thru that presentation. Its based on old numbers and old projections. There is a possibility of tranferring nearly 2 million pounds to the recreational side this year.

    However, if Florida wants an 80 day season (without any scientific basis to claim it), then all bets are off. The panhandle gets a huge bonus, the peninsula and the rest of the gulf gets screwed. Way to go FL FWC.

    And this is NMFS' fault?
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    The 'Bonus' we get is being able to harvest our (INCREDIBLY PLENTIFUL & CAN'T GET AWAY FROM) Red Snapper for more than a few days... Gotcha...
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    BubbaII wrote: »
    LOL....... I just read thru that presentation. Its based on old numbers and old projections. There is a possibility of tranferring nearly 2 million pounds to the recreational side this year.

    However, if Florida wants an 80 day season (without any scientific basis to claim it), then all bets are off. The panhandle gets a huge bonus, the peninsula and the rest of the gulf gets screwed. Way to go FL FWC.

    And this is NMFS' fault?

    And the 1 day season has a "scientific basis" behind it?

    No, it doesn't.
  • BubbaII wrote: »
    LOL....... I just read thru that presentation. Its based on old numbers and old projections. There is a possibility of tranferring nearly 2 million pounds to the recreational side this year.

    However, if Florida wants an 80 day season (without any scientific basis to claim it), then all bets are off. The panhandle gets a huge bonus, the peninsula and the rest of the gulf gets screwed. Way to go FL FWC.

    And this is NMFS' fault?

    Absolutely the NMFS fault. Why is the "Possibility" of 2M pounds being added coming up"
    Wasn't that as a result of the NMFS deficient data system being ordered to be replaced?
    When by the way was that supposed to have actually happened? And their just now
    getting around to implementing it, how many years after it was supposed to happen?
    What does the NMFS own "Science" actually show about ARS abundances? And that does
    not include most artificial structure and just now even beginning to more fully include natural
    structure other than hard Bottom. Hows that for the NMFs "Science"?

    Now if you follow the NMFS "Logic" (I use that loosely), the possible increase may move them
    to what, 2 Days, and let me guess they will "Give" Charter owners 60+ days? BTW....did Andy
    include the many CFH boats that run 2 ARS trips a day?
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    And the 1 day season has a "scientific basis" behind it?

    No, it doesn't.

    I think FL would have a very difficult time producing scientific analyses that their 80 day season won't impact the rest of the gulf.

    No one, that I know of, says the federal recreational season will be one day.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,454 AG
    Tom said it... On the interweb too!

    So it must be true... sayin!
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    Tom said it... On the interweb too!

    So it must be true... sayin!

    So this is Tom's presentation ??? http://myfwc.com/media/2981274/15A1-GulfRedSnapperDraftRulePresentation.pdf
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,454 AG
    No, but is is just an estimate.. That's all.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,892 Captain

    Comrades, no need to worry, I can assure you that you will have a red snapper season more than 1 day.

    This corruption which is accused on the good management council members, it is false I assure you.........
  • TypicleseTypiclese Posts: 393 Deckhand
    Dude, that is frickin fantastic! Well done.

    Kinda reminds me of this guy:


    "How dare you question me. Our NMFS data is correct!!"
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    BubbaII wrote: »
    I think FL would have a very difficult time producing scientific analyses that their 80 day season won't impact the rest of the gulf.

    No one, that I know of, says the federal recreational season will be one day.

    That was the projection when they voted on AM 40 - 0 to 1 day for the private recs, 30 days for the for-hire.

    You are correct - it will likely be 0 days if Florida extends it's state season - that is for the private recs - the for-hire boats will still get 33 or more days. Hmmm...sounds a LOT like the headboat EFP.

    Just more fodder for the upcoming lawsuits, especially when noting the embarrassingly illegal actions by 3 Gulf Council members.
  • navigator2navigator2 Posts: 22,518 AG
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    The 2015 red snapper season is a Monday.

    It doesn't just start on Monday June 1st, it also ends of Monday June 1st.

    Yet, the newly created for-hire sector, historically responsible for a minority of the rec landings, are gifted 33X more days to fish than every other American Gulf recreational angler is given.

    I guess their arcane models show that we would overfish our quota if our season was a Saturday.

    We have officially arrived at the peak of the insanity called federal fisheries management.

    .

    .
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Yankee CaptsYankee Capts Posts: 1,003 Officer
    Here's the Exact MRIP Estimate for all of the Gulf of Mexico's Red Snapper rec landings..

    Estimate Status Year Common Name Fishing Mode Total Harvest (A+B1) PSE Harvest (A+B1) Total Weight (lb) PSE

    PRELIMINARY 2014 RED SNAPPER CHARTER BOAT 40,780 24.0 259,111 26.2
    PRELIMINARY 2014 RED SNAPPER PRIVATE/RENTAL BOAT 345,518 18.4 2,592,287 19.4


    Using MRIP's Number-of-fish-landed & then dividing the Charter catch by 6 (for #anglers per-boat) and the Private Boat catch-estimate by 4 anglers per-boat .. and then averaging a 2 fish limit for all anglers - We can calculate MRIP's catch to mean there were 12.7 Private Boat trips for every charter trip.

    However, since in the real world far more Private Boats go on weekends, this number would have to be much higher on Saturdays & Sundays and much, much lower on weekdays.

    Therefore.. For the MRIP Red Snapper catch estimate to be remotely in the ballpark, a pair of Charter Boats (two) fishing a piece of bottom for snapper on a Saturday would have to have a fleet of about 95 Private Boats around them.

    This would need to be true for every Charter trip at each location.

    That would not be like the Red Snapper Fishery that's been described to me which is more Charter dominated.

    MRIP has taken MRFSS errors & multiplied them.

    MRIP is worse, by far, than MRFSS

    ..and MRFSS really stunk.

    Do the math. Could these estimates POSSIBLY be true given what you ACTUALLY SEE on the water?

    I doubt it.
  • CaptainBlyCaptainBly Posts: 2,594 Captain
    http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?181668-Fire-Gulf-Council-Members

    ****, I try to work on Monday....looks like another day off...of course it will be blowing 30 knots that day...
    In Loving Memory of James Zielske, January 19, 1957-July 5, 2013
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Posts: 197 Officer
    yankee,
    I see your math and somewhat agree with it. However, you need to add in the headboat data, Texas data and Louisiana data for a better and more complete picture. Can anyone out there get this info?

    The larger unknown is the private access (marinas, private docks...). Not one of these surveys is able to sample fishermen from these areas.

    What I really don't get is why charter boats, all of them state and federal, haven't been required to have logbooks, just like the headboats. Yes, there is a big link to IFQs with a logbook, but the upside is we can really tell what these dudes catch or don't catch. This would go a long way to 'validate' what MRIP or any other survey reports. For example, if MRIP reports say 100 fish and the logs have 10 fish, then we've got real ammunition against MRIP. Right now, all we've got is, from their point of view, heresay.

    Though, the upside to the 'heresay' is the states are listening and my guess is will dump MRIP some-point soon.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    I think Louisiana has already dumped MRIP.

    From what I understand, the increase in quota this year is due to the realization that we had been catching more fish in past years than they had believed, with which I do agree. The problem is the inability to go back in time and validate this fact, but I believe many of the draconian reductions in season days supposedly attributed to effort compensation should also be revoked. Anyone who spends anytime on the water knows that there are just a fraction of boats out there fishing today than 6-10 years ago - offshore boat sales in recent years support this fact. Increasing the quota is one thing, but really doesn't mean much when we are looking at an artificially low number of days due to this erroneous assumption that we can somehow catch more fish in 1 day than what used to take us 194 days.
  • FlatsFrenzyFlatsFrenzy Posts: 893 Officer
    If the fishery is in such poor shape that the recreational season is ONE day, then they should close it for everyone.
    -
    Chris
    Gulf Coast of FL
    @flatsfrenzy #flyonly #onelessspinrod
  • See my sig
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • clarosaclarosa Posts: 872 Officer
    SnappaSlappa jigs, Made By Fisherman FOR fisherman

    https://snappaslappa.com/collections/jigs
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Posts: 197 Officer
    Tom, yes MRIP is now gone in LA. They're doing their own thing now. Which is a step MS, AL and FL should really consider taking.

    You also bring up an interesting point regarding effort. The MRIP numbers on effort really haven't changed, I did a data query on their site and was able to look strictly at EEZ effort and it just seems really odd that on an annual basis with all the regulations we have now that their effort estimates don't seem to reflect that

    Then when you couple this with MS and AL's red snapper reporting from last year, it get's even fishier (no pun here).

    Now MRIP is full of really book-smart people, I'll give them that, but I have real doubts on their reality based smarts.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    See my sig

    Glad you liked it :wink
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Here's the Exact MRIP Estimate for all of the Gulf of Mexico's Red Snapper rec landings..

    Estimate Status Year Common Name Fishing Mode Total Harvest (A+B1) PSE Harvest (A+B1) Total Weight (lb) PSE

    PRELIMINARY 2014 RED SNAPPER CHARTER BOAT 40,780 24.0 259,111 26.2
    PRELIMINARY 2014 RED SNAPPER PRIVATE/RENTAL BOAT 345,518 18.4 2,592,287 19.4


    Using MRIP's Number-of-fish-landed & then dividing the Charter catch by 6 (for #anglers per-boat) and the Private Boat catch-estimate by 4 anglers per-boat .. and then averaging a 2 fish limit for all anglers - We can calculate MRIP's catch to mean there were 12.7 Private Boat trips for every charter trip.

    However, since in the real world far more Private Boats go on weekends, this number would have to be much higher on Saturdays & Sundays and much, much lower on weekdays.

    Therefore.. For the MRIP Red Snapper catch estimate to be remotely in the ballpark, a pair of Charter Boats (two) fishing a piece of bottom for snapper on a Saturday would have to have a fleet of about 95 Private Boats around them.

    This would need to be true for every Charter trip at each location.

    That would not be like the Red Snapper Fishery that's been described to me which is more Charter dominated.

    MRIP has taken MRFSS errors & multiplied them.

    MRIP is worse, by far, than MRFSS

    ..and MRFSS really stunk.

    Do the math. Could these estimates POSSIBLY be true given what you ACTUALLY SEE on the water?

    I doubt it.

    only thing wrong with your calculations is that charter boats couldn't fish after the federal season closed, whereas private anglers in AL and FL panhandle could contiue to fish until July 14.

    Florida panhandle anglers will get a big surplus by FLs proposed 80 day season to the the expense of all the rest of you. Doesn't that goad your nads?
    Tom, yes MRIP is now gone in LA. They're doing their own thing now. Which is a step MS, AL and FL should really consider taking.

    Actually as I understand it, NMFS and LA are doing some benchmark side-bvy-side test this year.
  • BubbaII wrote: »
    only thing wrong with your calculations is that charter boats couldn't fish after the federal season closed, whereas private anglers in AL and FL panhandle could contiue to fish until July 14.

    Florida panhandle anglers will get a big surplus by FLs proposed 80 day season to the the expense of all the rest of you. Doesn't that goad your nads?



    Actually as I understand it, NMFS and LA are doing some benchmark side-bvy-side test this year.

    Charter Boats Can and Do fish for ARS after Fed Season is Closed. In Federal Waters, they add to the total
    discard mortality and of coarse what most fail to mention is that there are state water boats that charter,
    often with the same Captains and business owners that also fish Federal Waters, including some that pushed
    so hard for AM 40 AND used the old "State Noncompliance" mantra as an excuse.

    The comparisons before such as LA Creel showed a large difference the first year looked at, and even the
    second where MRIP "Averaged" in LA numbers, only by picking a spot near the middle of their HUGE
    range of high-low numbers did they get what they called close, but with a 33% MOE, cant really say
    there was much confidence their either. What did Alabama show when it ran its numbers beside MRIP?

    John Carmichael stated that their goal for the NMFS data, is to get a 50% chance of reliability of
    their data. Sounds like we could save a lot of time and money by just flipping a coin huh?

    Still curious if anyone REALLY thinks that the ARS stocks health is reflected in the NMFS projected
    seasons? Also curious is anyone really thinks that recreational anglers not fishing on a charter boat
    can catch as many fish in one day as those on a charter boat can in a month of fishing?
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Posts: 197 Officer
    Bubba
    Yes, LA and MRIP are doing a side by side this year. The results will be really interesting. Essentially, LA's survey is very much like MRIP, except things like sampling frequency (to increase precision I presume) and sample stratification (including identification of offshore anglers) are different.

    But, I bet the cost is really high and good for them having the money I say. Now, if only the other states could get funding to do something similar...
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Bubba
    Yes, LA and MRIP are doing a side by side this year. The results will be really interesting. Essentially, LA's survey is very much like MRIP, except things like sampling frequency (to increase precision I presume) and sample stratification (including identification of offshore anglers) are different.

    But, I bet the cost is really high and good for them having the money I say. Now, if only the other states could get funding to do something similar...

    so why, in your previous post did you say MRIP was gone from Louisiana?

    and you're right. MRIP is a national program designed to monitor annual landings; not quotas for short seasons. And yes, as I understand it, LA has more money than god between hurricane money, oil money, oil spill money, etc. The other states don't have that luxury. I think FL got some oil spill money for their new pilot survey, but like LA, they are working cooperatively with MRIP, as is AL.
  • Jack HexterJack Hexter New Port RicheyPosts: 5,337 Moderator
    BubbaII wrote: »
    MRIP is a national program designed to monitor annual landings; not quotas for short seasons.

    But that is exactly what they have used it for, the same as MRFSS
  • TrippleTailIVTrippleTailIV Posts: 197 Officer
    Hey Bubba, I said MRIP is gone because in 2014 they were. In 2015 a side by side is being conducted. All catch estimates from 2014 are La Creel not MRIP. AL is working with MRIP, but from what I got from the Council information is AL is working with MRIP to refine their red snapper permit reporting process. Not 100% sure on this though.

    The question is in 2015, which set will be used, La Creel or MRIP

    I think MRIP and LDWF are doing this so a calibration factor can be designed for rec landings in stock assessments and the like.
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Digital Now Included!

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

Preview This Month's Issue

Buy Digital Single Issues

Don't miss an issue.
Buy single digital issue for your phone or tablet.

Buy Single Digital Issue on the Florida Sportsman App

Other Magazines

See All Other Magazines

Special Interest Magazines

See All Special Interest Magazines

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Florida Sportsman stories delivered right to your inbox.

Advertisement

Phone Icon

Get Digital Access.

All Florida Sportsman subscribers now have digital access to their magazine content. This means you have the option to read your magazine on most popular phones and tablets.

To get started, click the link below to visit mymagnow.com and learn how to access your digital magazine.

Get Digital Access

Not a Subscriber?
Subscribe Now