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South Florida Must Read

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  • Finger MulletFinger Mullet Posts: 3,852 Officer
    Odd, I find it interesting a significant portion of FS Posters actually believe this nonsense. Now I do dissagree with Gary on some points of regulation. In this case....well all I got is GOOD LORD.
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Congrats for being the 1st respondent to have actually seen the NG article.
    rodz wrote: »
    Thanks Fibber. When I read this post I ripped open my freshly arrived copy. Miami has two types of flooding. West Miami is low lying and during the rainy season will flood. Coastal flooding is the other and they are separate issues. Also, I think SFWMD only handles fresh water. I don't think an entire generation of architects and engineers designed communities to allow coastal flooding like Miami Beach. I've been to Venice, Italy maybe half a dozen times and have seen some crazy tides that flood. Regardless, it's here - just ask your insurance agent.

    This would not be good. From the article.

    Readers can try to deny reality, but the barnacles keep growing higher on structures fixed to bedrock & salt water tolerant plants keep marching inward replacing retreating fresh water habitat. South Florida is going under.

    The fact that Florida has been both under water or high & dry in the ancient past is not evidence against today's sea level rise. And the study of climate & geology is not a religion, despite the ludicrous suggestions from anti-science types.
  • SAENoleSAENole Posts: 11,187 AG
    I did a quick barnacle check this morning and have determined that indeed we are doomed.

    Now, please pardon me while I head for higher ground.
    Warning Level 2
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    At ease Chicken Little. You're not "doomed". No need to "head for higher ground". This is "indeed" an opportunity.
    SAENole wrote: »
    I did a quick barnacle check this morning and have determined that indeed we are doomed.

    Now, please pardon me while I head for higher ground.

    There's EZ money to be made investing in the Dutch scheme to build Floating Villages.
  • SAENoleSAENole Posts: 11,187 AG
    I enjoy your threads about living in fear.
    Warning Level 2
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Your posts trying to deny reality & ranting about doom show you're "living in fear". You'd better "enjoy" it b/c it doesn't look like you'll ever escape it.
    SAENole wrote: »
    I enjoy your threads about living in fear.

    There's a lot of profit to be taken in South Florida building seawalls, jacking up buildings, raising highways, moving power transmission lines inland, installing massive pumps, constructing desalinization plants, etc. The Dutch even hope to get rich developing floating villages.
  • JBondJBond Posts: 5,039 Officer
    Fibber,

    All I need to know is, will Florida still be there in March. Let me know ASAP.

    Thanks.
  • SAENoleSAENole Posts: 11,187 AG
    This planet has been here for several billion years and you think southern Florida will be under water after 45 more trips around the sun.

    Time to move to Holland and get a head start.
    Warning Level 2
  • navigator2navigator2 Posts: 22,511 AG
    Your posts trying to deny reality & ranting about doom show you're "living in fear". You'd better "enjoy" it b/c it doesn't look like you'll ever escape it.



    There's a lot of profit to be taken in South Florida building seawalls, jacking up buildings, raising highways, moving power transmission lines inland, installing massive pumps, constructing desalinization plants, etc. The Dutch even hope to get rich developing floating villages.

    You should jump right in with the developer and fully invest at the ground level. It should be as useful and profitable as all those investments done in the 60's in building nuclear bomb shelters. They do make good conservation pieces and completely undetectable MJ grow houses though.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Finger MulletFinger Mullet Posts: 3,852 Officer
    navigator2 wrote: »
    You should jump right in with the developer and fully invest at the ground level. It should be as useful and profitable as all those investments done in the 60's in building nuclear bomb shelters. They do make good conservation pieces and completely undetectable MJ grow houses though.

    My grandparents had one of those shelters, I own it now, great place to get laid and drink back in the day.
  • SLW210SLW210 Posts: 2,226 Captain
    Your posts trying to deny reality & ranting about doom show you're "living in fear". You'd better "enjoy" it b/c it doesn't look like you'll ever escape it.



    There's a lot of profit to be taken in South Florida building seawalls, jacking up buildings, raising highways, moving power transmission lines inland, installing massive pumps, constructing desalinization plants, etc. The Dutch even hope to get rich developing floating villages.

    You are the one denying facts and reality, you should stop posting while you are stoned.

    If they are prescription, see your doctor about changing or eliminating them.

    LMFAO!!
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,309 Admiral
    :grin No it isn't. The guy who wrote and researched the article is a journalist and doesn't do science or engineering and only visited Florida once as part of researching the article.

    The South Florida Water Management District's jurisdiction is larger that the entire Netherlands and serves a larger population as well. Its flood control responsibilities are internal and combined with water quality, water supply and restoration.

    Additionally and most importantly satellite data shows virtually no increase in sea level rise trending in South Florida since collection began.

    This is confirmed by physical observations and bench marking for FEMA mapping and local coastal building permitting regulations.

    Nothing to fear.

    But if you want a good story:

    82977-2.jpg

    Gary you need to post a sticky of the measured water levels of your dock for the past 20 years. If I remember right there has been no change.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • David BDavid B Posts: 1,907 Captain
    The fact that Florida has been both under water or high & dry in the ancient past is not evidence against today's sea level rise. And the study of climate & geology is not a religion, despite the ludicrous suggestions from anti-science types.

    **** it man. Yeah forego historical information when the need suites the story. That fact is let it rise, let it fall, either way there isn't a **** thing any of us are going to do to change that. Remember that plant you were so worked up over the other day, well it happens to be on some of the oldest land in Florida. That land formerly was composed of a chain of islands. Ancient Islands.
    See one day it may be that again and none of it will matter to any of us or our great-great grand children.
    Increasing MMGW or climate change, one twist off at a time.
  • navigator2navigator2 Posts: 22,511 AG
    MACD wrote: »
    I only look at NG for the pictures............


    Fibber has never outgrown his fascination of the publication "African Playboy"................. :grin
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FinfinderFinfinder Posts: 9,999 Admiral
    this is what I love about this forum....... Fibber attempts to debate Gary of all people on this subject
  • ScminnowScminnow Posts: 4,094 Captain
    When you bring up history facts the commies cry that it's not fair!
  • ScminnowScminnow Posts: 4,094 Captain
    Mr fibber please tell us what you think the optimal temp of the earth should be?
    Mr fibber please tell us what the optimal sea level should be?
    Mr fibber please tell us your 10 point plan on how we should behave in order to achieve your opinion of the optimal
    Also please include your cost benefit analysis to achieve your opinion of the optimal
    Also please include your probability of success with your plan to achieve your opinion of the optimal
    And no strawman replies about pollution plz thx
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Gary failed to even be able to come up with the correct population of the Netherlands, a widely published figure.
    cpr wrote: »
    Gary you need to post a sticky of the measured water levels of your dock for the past 20 years. If I remember right there has been no change.

    And cpr thinks we need his personal "measured water levels".

    "If I remember right" that's a nonstarter.

  • There's EZ money to be made investing in the Dutch scheme to build Floating Villages.

    :grin
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Mr scminnow please tell us what you think is wrong with the Dutch development company proposing to build floating-villages in South Florida?
    Scminnow wrote: »
    Mr fibber please tell us what you think the optimal temp of the earth should be?
    Mr fibber please tell us what the optimal sea level should be?
    Mr fibber please tell us your 10 point plan on how we should behave in order to achieve your opinion of the optimal
    Also please include your cost benefit analysis to achieve your opinion of the optimal
    Also please include your probability of success with your plan to achieve your opinion of the optimal
    And no strawman replies about pollution plz thx

    Mr scminnow's strawman seems to rely on some kind of an "optimal temp... sea level... & optimal opinion of the optimal".

    NG article doesn't dwell on the causes, proposals to intervene, or "cost benefit analysis" - neither did I.

    'South Florida Must Read' the Hand Writing On The Wall - sea level is rising. Twentysomethings are expected to see as much as a 6.6' rise in sea level by the time they retire & collect SS.

    Trying to deny it & posting lame attempts to bash me doesn't alter the facts.

  • 'South Florida Must Read' the Hand Writing On The Wall - sea level is rising.... doesn't alter the facts.

    There is no evidence that the sea level is rising appreciably in South Florida, despite what you are predisposed to believe and are reinforced by an amateur adventuring pictorial periodical known for its titillating exposure of primitive native tribeswomen to youth as Steve alludes.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    How many inches per decade "is rising appreciably"?
    There is no evidence that the sea level is rising appreciably in South Florida, despite what you are predisposed to believe and are reinforced by an amateur adventuring pictorial periodical known for its titillating exposure of primitive native tribeswomen to youth as Steve alludes.

    Ah! If only NG Society was "an amateur adventuring pictorial periodical" AND it was the only periodical that publishes "evidence that the sea level is rising" based on research from the most prestigious scientific institutions around the world.

    IF all you've got is "titillating exposure of primitive native tribeswomen to youth" you're one sad puppy. Time for another Martuni.
  • How many inches per decade "is rising appreciably"?

    Good question. Please provide the historic data for South Florida. And then we can discuss it. Thanks!
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Here's an offering from SFWMD:

    http://my.sfwmd.gov/portal/page/portal/xrepository/sfwmd_repository_pdf/ccireport_publicationversion_14jul11.pdf
    Good question. Please provide the historic data for South Florida. And then we can discuss it. Thanks!
  • Thank you. I am very much aware of Obey's modeling prognostications.

    As we see in his conclusions, he, does not forecast definitive increases with time and only makes broad assertions of a general increase:

    Sea Level Rise
    In the context of climate change and uncertainties associated with natural variability and
    unknown feedbacks, one of the most certain observations is that sea level has been and will
    continue to rise for the foreseeable future. Given that recently published sea level rise projections
    for the 21st century span the range from 1.5 to 6.5 ft; the question is not one of ‘will sea level
    rise?’ but ‘how much?’, and ‘what are the expected consequences?’ Either of these projections
    has potential to significantly impact water resources management in south Florida by restricting
    gravity-flow capacity for stormwater drainage and infiltrating coastal wellfields with saline
    water. Inundation of coastal wetlands will fundamentally alter regional ecosystems. In addition
    to long-term changes from gradual sea level rise, it is also expected that extreme events such as
    storm surges will increase in severity. To respond to these challenges, a better understanding of
    their impacts on the hydrologic system is required. This can be approached by integrating sea
    level rise projections with saltwater intrusion models focused on the coastal aquifers, and with a
    systems analysis of the flood control system and its dependence on sea level for gravity
    discharge. These models can be constructed with existing data and projections, and can provide
    vital information for decision support analysis.


    He conludes with a precautionary note:

    Conclusion – Sea Level Rise
    Projections of climate change and sea level rise for the coming decades are highly variable and
    uncertain. This uncertainty forms the basis of an enormous challenge for governmental planners
    and policy makers. Perhaps the most certain aspect of climate change is that sea levels are now,
    and will continue to rise in the future. Although the rate of rise is variable, general scientific
    consensus is that an acceleration of the current rates are expected over the coming decades.
    Equally certain are that impacts of SLR on south Florida will produce lasting and important
    changes to environmental and socioeconomic conditions.


    His basis for all of this is his belief that there has been a 9 inch increase in sea level in Florida over the last century. Which is a very broad statement and as he himself says involves data and variability which does not standards to require modifying MHW standards used to establish road, home and structural minimum elevations , based upon rainfall events.

    Certainly the available satellite imagery does not reflect anything to suggest Florida emulating a bad Kevin Costner post diluvian cinematic experience, and investing in Dutch houseboats.

    sea_level_trend.jpg

    This image is from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and shows the trending from 1993 to 2011. As we can see there is a great variation in trending on a global basis. Of particular interest to us is that there is very little trending upwards in Florida, which speak to our own observations, particularly in coastal construction, storm water and utilities systems design.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    This thread reminds me of the story of the guy who was taking 5 gallon buckets of water from the deep end of the swimming pool and dumping them into the shallow end expecting a change in depth.:huh
  • navigator2navigator2 Posts: 22,511 AG
    Preliminary Dutch architectural sketches. Might be able to skirt some Florida casino restrictions too. Just might be profitable after all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    You asked for "historic data" & SFWMD link provided them, they are NOT to be confused with "modeling prognostications" & are plainly labeled. USGS & Army Corp of Engineers "historic data" is shown in the link, in addition to prehistoric estimates & the "modeling prognostications".
    Good question. Please provide the historic data for South Florida. And then we can discuss it. Thanks!
    Thank you. I am very much aware of Obey's modeling prognostications.

    As we see in his conclusions, he, does not forecast definitive increases with time and only makes broad assertions of a general increase:

    "Obey's modeling prognostications" are by no means the only to "forecast" what you attempt to broadly label as "not... definitive increases". Some skeptics believe everyone "only makes broad assertions of a general increase". SFWMD does not "forecast definitive increases". Their predictions & plans are based on a similar principle as the Cone of Uncertainty we see as hurricanes approach. Instead of "definitive increases" they work from within the range of high and low estimates. However unlike hurricanes that are relatively small, short lived & are known to make sudden turns, sea level rise is global, has a well known history & is highly likely to follow long term trends.
  • You asked for "historic data" & SFWMD link provided them, they are NOT to be confused with "modeling prognostications" & are plainly labeled.

    You have not provided historic data. You presented Obey's 4 year old overview on systems impacts from further weather related events.

    The latest version of that estimation is being prepared for publication as I am typing this. It also contains no data analysts nor summation, but is intended to be easily digestible by the regulated community and therefore broadly based.

    The raw data is available in DBHydro , the District's cyclopedic repository of water related data, which is available for you to analyze and comment upon. I am no longer involved in fulfilling customer data requests, but if you are interested, the District provides classes on accessing it. Of course, its quality and conclusions you draw from it are yours to defend. In this you can benefit from studying Obey's less than definitive commitments to his, as his conclusions state, the future is highly variable.

    I can give you the date of the upcoming class , if you would like to attend. I believe one was just held, so it may be a while. So you have some time to investigate the Dutch company's floating habitats.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Nope. SFWMD claims the historic data they present is instrumental records from tide gauges.
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