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Who does the Gulf Council members represent?

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  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 12,892 AG
    But, but, but, there's no difference between charter and rec fishermen....

    It must be true most of the rec community on here has pounded that point into the ground time after time.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    The 'difference' is not the fishermen, but the motives of the owners. I fished for decades on my own boat. I now fish on a head boat. Regardless, I was, and still am, 100% recreational. Most charter, head, boats, want what is best for all concerned; some want only what is in their best interest. And that's where we find a big difference.
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    harbison wrote: »
    The 'difference' is not the fishermen, but the motives of the owners. I fished for decades on my own boat. I now fish on a head boat. Regardless, I was, and still am, 100% recreational. Most charter, head, boats, want what is best for all concerned; some want only what is in their best interest. And that's where we find a big difference.

    The difference is, now that you fish on a headboat in the gulf your accountable for what you catch. The vessel you fish on and the fish you catch,are held to higher standard. The vessel and you as a fisherman are operating within a LAPP and that makes the difference between yourself as headboat fisherman and yourself as a private recreational fisherman. That difference is as wide as the gulf !
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    How is the headboat EFP accountable when they were given about double the amount of fish they deserved?

    How is the headboat EFP accountable when they were allowed to continue fishing for months after everyone else was forced to shut down June 9th?

    Cafeteria-style management at its best, which is, after all what Sector Separation brings to the table - Segregation and Discrimination.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    The only difference in fishing on most head boats & a recreational boat is that on two day trips head boats recreational anglers can have a two day legal possession limit.
    There is a program called the Gulf Headboat Collaborative Program that allows for certain head boats to fish under a quota system, instead of a season. Many see this 'Program' as unfair to most, step 1 towards recreational shares/separation, and NOAA's attempt to divide & conquer. Following is a list of the boats involved:

    Gulf Headboat Collaborative 2015 Vessels
    Below is a list of name of the vessels participating in the Headboat Collaborative in 2015:

    Captain John – Galveston, TX
    New Buccaneer – Galveston, TX
    La Pesca – Port Aransas, TX
    New Kingfisher – Port Aransas, TX
    Scat Cat – Port Aransas, TX
    Escape – Dauphin Island, AL
    America II – Orange Beach, AL
    Gulf Winds II – Orange Beach, AL
    Reel Surprise – Orange Beach, AL
    Zeke’s Lady – Orange Beach, AL
    Destin Princess – Destin, FL
    Destiny – Destin, FL
    Sweet Jody – Destin, FL
    Double Eagle II – Clearwater, FL
    Double Eagle III – Clearwater, FL
    Fish N Xpress – Port St Jo, FL
    Gulf Queen – Clearwater, FL
    Super Queen – Clearwater, FL
    Gulf Star – Tarpon Springs, FL
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    How is the headboat EFP accountable when they were given about double the amount of fish they deserved?

    How is the headboat EFP accountable when they were allowed to continue fishing for months after everyone else was forced to shut down June 9th?

    Cafeteria-style management at its best, which is, after all what Sector Separation brings to the table - Segregation and Discrimination.

    Get over the headboat collaborative, it is an EFP!!!!

    Glad to see that you admit that headboats deserve Red Snapper!
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    harbison wrote: »
    The only difference in fishing on most head boats & a recreational boat is that on two day trips head boats recreational anglers can have a two day legal possession limit.
    There is a program called the Gulf Headboat Collaborative Program that allows for certain head boats to fish under a quota system, instead of a season. Many see this 'Program' as unfair to most, step 1 towards recreational shares/separation, and NOAA's attempt to divide & conquer. Following is a list of the boats involved:

    Gulf Headboat Collaborative 2015 Vessels
    Below is a list of name of the vessels participating in the Headboat Collaborative in 2015:

    Captain John – Galveston, TX
    New Buccaneer – Galveston, TX
    La Pesca – Port Aransas, TX
    New Kingfisher – Port Aransas, TX
    Scat Cat – Port Aransas, TX
    Escape – Dauphin Island, AL
    America II – Orange Beach, AL
    Gulf Winds II – Orange Beach, AL
    Reel Surprise – Orange Beach, AL
    Zeke’s Lady – Orange Beach, AL
    Destin Princess – Destin, FL
    Destiny – Destin, FL
    Sweet Jody – Destin, FL
    Double Eagle II – Clearwater, FL
    Double Eagle III – Clearwater, FL
    Fish N Xpress – Port St Jo, FL
    Gulf Queen – Clearwater, FL
    Super Queen – Clearwater, FL
    Gulf Star – Tarpon Springs, FL

    It is a two day limit on multi day trips.

    ONLY is a powerful word in the context your using it.
    If you think the ONLY difference between federally permitted headboats and private recreational boats in the gulf is multi day trip limits. I suggest you do a little research into the rules and regulations that gulf head boats have to adhere to.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    This is from the GC meeting today - they are reducing the number of fish per boat in the headboat EFP from 3,266.3 fish to 2,246.8 fish, on average - that's a reduction of about 1/3 of the number of fish/boat, in just one year.

    They gave the EFP almost double the number of fish that they deserved - and yes, headboats deserve to harvest the number of fish they have historically caught - they do not deserve DOUBLE the number of fish.

    The reduction implemented for 2015 still doesn't reflect reality - instead of 5.3146 or 3.9894%, they should have been basing it on 3.1733% all along - this isn't rocket science.

    They need to reduce their quota by about 1/3 one more time, and they will be where they should be.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    "I suggest you do a little research into the rules and regulations that gulf head boats have to adhere to."
    Most head boats have the same regulations as private boats. Same seasons, size limitations, and (other than the 2 day possession benefit) the same possession limits as you or anyone else. The ONLY difference is with the 19 head boats that have joined the Headboat Collaborative Program. That's a whole different story!
    If the state season is longer that the federal season you can then fish for that species in state waters. Federal permitted boats cannot.
  • notreely wrote: »
    The difference is, now that you fish on a headboat in the gulf your accountable for what you catch. The vessel you fish on and the fish you catch,are held to higher standard. The vessel and you as a fisherman are operating within a LAPP and that makes the difference between yourself as headboat fisherman and yourself as a private recreational fisherman. That difference is as wide as the gulf !

    Headboats were "Accountable" long before and without the EFP. The only thing the EFP did was
    allow politics and corruption to widen the divide in fishery management. The limited access in the
    Gulf for all "For Hire" boats did nothing to change the fact that the Recreational angler at the end
    of the rod is the one to whom the fish belongs and the regulations are set for. There was also
    NOTHING that the Headboats had to do for "Accountability" that could not have been required of
    all 6 pack boats WITHOUT AM40. The EFP really highlighted that the NMFS/Council was neither
    interested in fixing the real data problem nor finding solutions for all user groups. It certainly did
    not build "Trust" among the stakeholders of fulfill the promise of "Transparency" in NOAA agencies,
    quite the opposite on both accounts. And of coarse, the EFP being allowed to continue fishing long
    after the rest of all recreational anglers was shut down tells us that the NMFS will "have to proclaim"
    the rec season did not exceed its quota, but perhaps that's why the 2015 EFP quota has been slashed.
    Why was the 2015 cut by a third?
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 6,022 Admiral
    The EFP really highlighted that the NMFS/Council was neither
    interested in fixing the real data problem nor finding solutions for all user groups.

    Who holds the NMFS accountable?
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    Headboats were "Accountable" long before and without the EFP. The only thing the EFP did was
    allow politics and corruption to widen the divide in fishery management. The limited access in the
    Gulf for all "For Hire" boats did nothing to change the fact that the Recreational angler at the end
    of the rod is the one to whom the fish belongs and the regulations are set for. There was also
    NOTHING that the Headboats had to do for "Accountability" that could not have been required of
    all 6 pack boats WITHOUT AM40. The EFP really highlighted that the NMFS/Council was neither
    interested in fixing the real data problem nor finding solutions for all user groups. It certainly did
    not build "Trust" among the stakeholders of fulfill the promise of "Transparency" in NOAA agencies,
    quite the opposite on both accounts. And of coarse, the EFP being allowed to continue fishing long
    after the rest of all recreational anglers was shut down tells us that the NMFS will "have to proclaim"
    the rec season did not exceed its quota, but perhaps that's why the 2015 EFP quota has been slashed.
    Why was the 2015 cut by a third?

    Yes gulf headboats are accountable for everything they catch, WHICH IS ONE THING THAT DIFFERS TEM FROM PRIVATE RECS!

    GET OVER THE HEADBOAT COLLABRATIVE IT IS AN EFP.
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    surfman wrote: »
    Who holds the NMFS accountable?

    CONGRESS AND THE COURTS.
  • notreely wrote: »
    Yes gulf headboats are accountable for everything they catch, WHICH IS ONE THING THAT DIFFERS TEM FROM PRIVATE RECS!

    GET OVER THE HEADBOAT COLLABRATIVE IT IS AN EFP.

    The Headboat scheme called an EPF is no more "Accountable" without it. While there
    is a sense of "Accountability" in that better harvest data is collected, there is little
    true "Accountability" since its only one piece of the puzzle and the NMFS fails
    miserably on most of. Like I said, the EFP changed nothing about "Accountability" that
    did not exist before, and there is/was NO REASON the same thing all headboats are
    required to do, could not have been required of all Charter Boats. Also like I said, the NMFS
    IF IF IF IF IF it really wanted better data and "Accountability" for ALL user groups, it
    could have listened to the workable ideas brought forward over the years.

    None of the "Accountability" proclaimed by these schemes does one thing to fix the basic
    data problems that exist. They have have addressed a effort level from a small part of the
    user group but continue to ignore the Inventory levels.

    Why was the EDF quota drastically slashed for 2015?
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    The Headboat scheme called an EPF is no more "Accountable" without it. While there
    is a sense of "Accountability" in that better harvest data is collected, there is little
    true "Accountability" since its only one piece of the puzzle and the NMFS fails
    miserably on most of. Like I said, the EFP changed nothing about "Accountability" that
    did not exist before, and there is/was NO REASON the same thing all headboats are
    required to do, could not have been required of all Charter Boats. Also like I said, the NMFS
    IF IF IF IF IF it really wanted better data and "Accountability" for ALL user groups, it
    could have listened to the workable ideas brought forward over the years.

    None of the "Accountability" proclaimed by these schemes does one thing to fix the basic
    data problems that exist. They have have addressed a effort level from a small part of the
    user group but continue to ignore the Inventory levels.

    Why was the EDF quota drastically slashed for 2015?

    I don't care about the headboat COLLABRATIVE IT IS AN EFP. I am commenting about the difference in regulations between headboats and private recs!
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    On February 2, I will be on the 44 hour Florida Fisherman full moon snapper trip. Other than being able to keep a 2 day limit, I will be under the EXACT same regulations as those who own their own boat. Same seasons, same size requirements...No gags, No American reds, etc. Where is the 'difference?'
    The # 1 difference is accountability! We have been doing this for years:
    23_zps8d7f4dc2.jpg
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    The purpose of the headboat collaborative is to serve as an "infomercial" for implementing catch shares - plain and simple.

    It is curious, considering how "conservative" NMFS likes to be when doling out fishing catch limits, that they gave the headboat EFP almost DOUBLE the Gulf-wide headboat landings average to the 17 boats participating last year. That's a 180 degree stance from how they set catch limits normally - STRANGE, VERY STRANGE, especially when noting they also have no buffer like the rest of us. Claiming that this program is 100% accountable is a joke in the highest degree - if it was truly accountable, they would open the books to show how they arrived at that allocation, as well as why they allowed these 17 boats to fish for 10 months while the rest of us were constrained to a 9 day window. Of course, they will not open up their books, since the books are cooked.

    Also interesting to note that The Environmental Defense Fund is being paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by our federal government to "study" the success of this EFP. What a waste of taxpayer dollars, as I can already tell you that they will find it a resounding success and recommend that they implement this across the board for all Gulf fish.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    But, but, but, there's no difference between charter and rec fishermen....

    It must be true most of the rec community on here has pounded that point into the ground time after time.

    This was once true, but the federal permit holders have separated themselves into being taxi drivers for the reel fishermen.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    harbison wrote: »
    On February 2, I will be on the 44 hour Florida Fisherman full moon snapper trip. Other than being able to keep a 2 day limit, I will be under the EXACT same regulations as those who own their own boat. Same seasons, same size requirements...No gags, No American reds, etc. Where is the 'difference?'
    The # 1 difference is accountability! We have been doing this for years:
    23_zps8d7f4dc2.jpg


    Yes the mandatory headboat log book program has made them accountable! Not only is the#1 difference it strikes to the heart of the matter.
    If you went fishing a week after your trip on a federally permitted headboat in gulf within FL state waters and I was on a private boat right next to you. I could keep 2 grey triggerfish you would not be able to.
    30B ANOTHER MAJOR DIFFERENCE AND ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURE PRIVATE RECS DO NOT HAVE TO ADHERE TO.


    BTW, it looks like that boat needs a lesson on how to properly care for and handle fish!
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    Federally permitted boats must follow federal regulations if fishing in state waters...TRUE! So what? We do not fish state waters. If you were next to us you could not keep tigger fish either. Exact same regulations. In addition, we would NEVER target trigger fish.
    Numer 1 difference...ACCOUNTABILITY!!!
    "ANOTHER MAJOR DIFFERENCE AND ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURE PRIVATE RECS DO NOT HAVE TO ADHERE TO" Huge 'difference' and even BIGGER problem!
    "it looks like that boat needs a lesson on how to properly care for and handle fish!" ABSOLUTELY FALSE...The Florida Fisherman carries hundreds of pounds of crushed ice. Will & Kyle are professionals who have been caring & handling fish for many years. When we receive our fish on Sunday morning, even in July & August, every single one is in absolute PRIME condition:
    P6200019_zps6fd1bcb0.jpg
    P6220127_zps44a32e21.jpg
  • Apparently 3 of them represent a Commercial Seafood Lobby Group.......

    http://thefra.org/fra-requests-removal-of-three-gulf-council-members/
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 6,022 Admiral
    notreely wrote: »
    CONGRESS AND THE COURTS.

    Ah yes, the fox watching the hen house, it figures.
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • surfmansurfman WC FLPosts: 6,022 Admiral
    Apparently 3 of them represent a Commercial Seafood Lobby Group.......

    http://thefra.org/fra-requests-removal-of-three-gulf-council-members/

    I thought that was common knowledge?
    Tight Lines, Steve
    My posts are my opinion only.

    Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for.  Will Rogers
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Apparently there are LAWS that require the Council members to disclose such ties on financial disclosure forms, which these 3 failed to do.

    Of course, if you look on the Gulf Council agenda, it states that it is a violation of federal law to willfully put forth false information to the Council, yet when that was obviously done by another EDF-funded person, on the record, the federal attorneys refused to pursue it.

    The whole process is a sham.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    Emily's (Gulf Council) response: (this was sent in an E. Mail to me. As a rule I do not publish private E. Mails. However, since this is so important to all of us, and was not marked PRIVATE, I presume it's OK to share:
    "The current financial disculosure forms are due Feb 1. Two of the three Council members invlolved that group have completed the forms and did report their involvement in GSI. They will be posted on our website as soon as we recieve all members submissions. I can send you copies of the ones I have if you want.
    I don't know if it's a conflict. General Counsel is going to review the issue.
    We have members that are part of CCA – not sure how that is different (just a personal thought)."
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Emily's bias is showing.

    Also, I thought it was illegal for Gulf Council members to lobby Congress - it seems the same 3 most vocal cheerleaders for Catch Shares on the Gulf Council have been doing exactly that.
  • Emily is a good lady and just touting the company line.
    IMHO

    .........."General Counsel is going to review the issue."
    Now that gave me a good laugh.
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • markw4321markw4321 Posts: 171 Officer
    Isn't Mr. Greene designated as a recreational fishing representative...
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,572 Admiral
    Emily is a real lady with a very tough position. I have met her in person; I respect her. She loves Florida & our great outdoors as much as we all do.
    UntitledpngEmilyM_zps2c12bd9f.jpg
    Dr. Pam Dana is the Florida recreational representative on the Gulf Council. She is now in her second term.
    Pam_zps7bcd01ec.jpg
  • notreelynotreely Posts: 653 Officer
    Apparently 3 of them represent a Commercial Seafood Lobby Group.......

    http://thefra.org/fra-requests-removal-of-three-gulf-council-members/

    As I've said before, I'm not a attorney.
    I wonder why the letter doesn't show the whole regulation.


    109-479 (2) Each affected individual must disclose any financial interest held by— (A) that individual; (B) the spouse, minor child, or partner of that individual; and (C) any organization (other than the Council) in which that individual is serving as an officer, director, trustee, partner, or employee; in any harvesting, processing, lobbying, advocacy, or marketing activity that is being, or will be, undertaken within any fishery over which the Council concerned has jurisdiction, or with respect to an individual or organization with a financial interest in such activity.

    It would seem if the individuals were not being paid by this organization ( financial intrest) their is nothing to disclose.
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