New Alligator rules..

binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,329 Admiral
Anyone else get this?

379.354 Recreational Modification 1. Includes alligators along with references to freshwater and Existing alligator trapping and trapping
licenses, permits, and
authorization numbers:
saltwater fish, game or fur-bearing animals.
2. Creates recreational Resident Alligator Hunting ($250) and
agent licenses issued under s. 379.3751,
F.S., and alligator hide validation tags
fees established. Alligator Hunting Assistant ($50) licenses and a Recreational
Alligator CITES Hide Validation Tag (up to $30) -- effective for
issued under s. 379.3752, F.S., in support
of the Commission's Statewide Alligator
2016 alligator harvest season. Harvest Program (recreational hunting)
3. Creates recreational Non-Resident Alligator Hunting ($500) would be moved for consistency with
and Alligator Hunting Assistant ($150) licenses and a other recreational hunts, and to improve
Recreational Alligator CITES Hide Validation Tag (up to $30) -- understanding by and extend flexibility to
effective for 2016 alligator harvest season. Statewide Alligator Hunt Program
4. Expands the prvileges of lifetime hunting and lifetime participants. This will allow many of the
sportsman's licenseholders, if purchased before July 1, 1998, to exemptions currently offered for other
include the recreational alligator hunting and alligator hunting recreational licenses (ex., persons who are
assistant licenses. under 16). The fee associated with the
4. Prohibits the issuance of Alligator Hunting or Alligator Non-Resident Alligator Hunting License is
Hunting Assistant licenses to persons who have been convicted reduced to improve the chances of
of an illegal take violation of crocodilians. attracting new out-of-state participants.
The fee associated with the Non-Resident
Alligator Hunting Assistant License is
increased to offset the reduction of the
Non-Resident Alligator Hunting License.
The license fees for residents and the
Recreational Alligator CITES Hide
Validation Tag are unchanged. Priveleges
of lifetime hunting and sportsman's
license were expanded to be consistent
with the statutory intent prior to July 1,
1998. Recreational alligtor hunters
illegally taking alligators will be blocked for
a period of 5 years.
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Replies

  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    Yes.
    This has been in the works for a long time. Big changes are:
    Statewide hunt is to move to recreational. Out of state people go from 1000 to 500. Residents stay the same. Kids under 16 are exempt.
    Out of state agent license goes to $150.

    Big thing for me is that they are choosing not to address the extra low fee of $5 that they have the people who collect alligator eggs and hatchlings off of our lands. Two properties that went out for bid this year, Fort Drum and Cecil Webb, fetched $40 an egg. Most of these eggs leave our state once hatched with no benefit to the citizens of the State. A very few people are profiting greatly from this. While lakes like Jessup has had its tags reduced (214 in 2011, 82 in 2012, 68 in 2013 and now 53 in 2014) they still permit for 100% of the eggs they can find to be taken. Each year aprox 40,000 eggs and hatchlings are collected from Florida public waters for private intrests.

    Permits would be required to be in possession of any of the parts of an alligator. In the past this was limited to meat and hide. I personally do not see the need for the expansion. Years ago we removed the need to put cites tag numbers on heads and I see this is going in the wrong direction. I also do not see a method in rule that ever eliminates the need for the license.

    More to be said but that is a start.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,187 Captain
    who ever is in charge of making these rules should be fired . why lower the cost for non res . makes no sense .
    living life as i like
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,935 Captain
    Not sure what the egg harvest was on Cecil Webb, but I heard Ft. Drum was not much. They are there in fair numbers, but collection is a nightmare on that area, due to poor access.
  • David BDavid B Posts: 1,907 Captain
    So is going recreational the beginning of the end for the hunter to be able to sell his alligator? I agree with your comments on the egg collection and hatchling fees. They should be up in the amount for each. These folks aren't raising alligators and releasing them back to the wild.
    Increasing MMGW or climate change, one twist off at a time.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,329 Admiral
    nothing a floater buggy wouldn't fix..

    those are not just the only areas where they collect eggs.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    Walker Dog wrote: »
    Not sure what the egg harvest was on Cecil Webb, but I heard Ft. Drum was not much. They are there in fair numbers, but collection is a nightmare on that area, due to poor access.

    Webb was 545x40=21,800 and Ft Drum was 900x40 36,000. To bid 40 on areas where the collection cost would be more and difficult. What do you think the FWC could do if they all went out for bid? That is a yearly reoccurring income. There is a lot of good that could come from the extra revenue.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    David B wrote: »
    So is going recreational the beginning of the end for the hunter to be able to sell his alligator?

    FWC will tell you that they are not going to prohibit you from selling the alligator. The big question is going to be how the FDA, that regulates alligator meat sales, sees it. Alligator is lumped in with fish in their regulations. In their rules they do not allow for non commercial harvest to be used. Their is a special provision where non commercial harvest could be allowed. Not sure who has the authority or how that would occur.

    The big push to go recreational is to get aprox $200,000 in matching Federal funds for recreational licenses. If FWC allows the harvest to be used in a commercial way I am not sure that they would be allowed to legally collect the matching funds.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • David BDavid B Posts: 1,907 Captain
    I can't imagine the processors would stand by and let this pass. How much do they get to supplement their sales? To hear some of them talk, there isn't enough meat to meet the demands these days.
    Increasing MMGW or climate change, one twist off at a time.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,935 Captain
    That's more eggs from Ft. Drum than what I heard. (900's not that bad for an area that thick). Not sure that the landowner is interested in having a floater running around in there, but I'm sure it would go just about wherever you wanted it to go.

    I wonder how long the LA gazillionaire is going to keep the market propped up. Do you think $40 is going to be the new norm or just a bubble?
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    Walker Dog wrote: »
    I wonder how long the LA gazillionaire is going to keep the market propped up. Do you think $40 is going to be the new norm or just a bubble?
    I think that it will be a little lower as time goes on. But it should be clear to all that a few people have been making at ton of money for being on a short list.

    What will be real interesting is now the water management districts may put the land they manage in these programs and collect the money that the FWC is not interested in going after. We are not talking about chump change. As long as they allow for a open competitive bid process I do not see a downside.

    One of the other things in this package is that the FWC wants to remove from Statue that they need to do studies to set harvest levels. They want it to be in their rule only where they can modify or remove it later. I am for leaving in in Statute as it is just good practice to have real data.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    Everyone.......the FFWCC is starting to look at this as another cash cow like the panthers. So some of you think it's OK to put the eggs up for bid? That's great. We collect eggs. We process alligators. How will some of you feel when they decide to put adult harvest up for bid as well cutting out recreational hunting? Don't think it wont happen. The FFWCC is working on screwing up even more the alligator program. It's great to charge the guys collecting eggs more because most have no interest in it right? Be careful what you wish for...it's all about money.

    The alligators are outrunning us. We are removing eggs, hatchlings and adults and the population is still increasing. They are getting much smarter and more difficult to harvest. They are adapting to us hunting them now. It won't be long until the large ones become very difficult to harvest and we start having big problems with them. The females on areas where we have collected eggs now hide their nests much better than years ago.

    Just my two cents from someone in the industry.
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    bgeorge wrote: »
    One of the other things in this package is that the FWC wants to remove from Statue that they need to do studies to set harvest levels. They want it to be in their rule only where they can modify or remove it later. I am for leaving in in Statute as it is just good practice to have real data.

    The studies they conduct are useless now. They conduct light surveys and most alligators sink long before they can be counted. We don't need the data. Their numbers are steadily increasing regardless of all the harvesting being conducted. The numbers we are harvesting is minimal at best.
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,329 Admiral
    What I really don't like is this new survey THEY did, it was rushed thru quickly, and you were told NOT to share it with other people?

    Why you say?

    Good question....another reason I don't like this new ERA of surveys.

    BOHICA
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,329 Admiral
    Dear 2014 Alligator Hunt Applicant,

    We have developed a short online survey to help us figure out if any additional changes for the 2015 statewide alligator harvest permitting process are needed. We would truly value your participation and input.

    Here is your link to the survey:
    https://surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=Q01Ce_2fYsKel8AB3WosTzlw_3d_3d

    Please note that this link is your personal invitation and can only be used once. Please do not forward this message, and understand that anybody else trying to use this link after you will not be able to access the survey.

    The survey will be active until midnight, October 15, 2014.

    Thanks ahead of time for your participation, and we look forward to staying in touch with you!
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    Everyone.......the FFWCC is starting to look at this as another cash cow like the panthers. So some of you think it's OK to put the eggs up for bid? That's great. We collect eggs. We process alligators. How will some of you feel when they decide to put adult harvest up for bid as well cutting out recreational hunting? Don't think it wont happen. The FFWCC is working on screwing up even more the alligator program. It's great to charge the guys collecting eggs more because most have no interest in it right? Be careful what you wish for...it's all about money.

    The alligators are outrunning us. We are removing eggs, hatchlings and adults and the population is still increasing. They are getting much smarter and more difficult to harvest. They are adapting to us hunting them now. It won't be long until the large ones become very difficult to harvest and we start having big problems with them. The females on areas where we have collected eggs now hide their nests much better than years ago.

    Just my two cents from someone in the industry.

    Mark, I have no problem with eggs being collected. I am not in the farming industry but know people who are. It is not hard to see that the price FWC is getting is far far from what is should be if someone was willing to pay $40 to land manager + $2 to FWC for the right to collect the egg. They then have to pay to have the surveys done and the collection. Of the $5 egg fee the FWC gets for our public water collections, $4 stays with FWC and $1 goes to the Dept of Ag and is used for marketing of Florida alligator meat and hides.

    By members of the "Golden 30" not making room for additional farmers to have access to the resource they are having to seek other avenues to get access. Yes this can cause a big disruption in the whole program. Not because of FWC changes but because others will look to take some of the lands out of the FWC programs and put them into the private programs. Some members have put farms in minors names and relatives names in order to lock up the group.

    You can say that the numbers are increasing but in the example of Jessup, public harvest quotas are at 1/4 of what they were a few years ago and we are still doing 100% of egg collections on the lake. Of all the lands in the private wetland program how many do you know that is allowed to harvest over 50% of the nests? The FWC has stopped doing nest surveys prior to permitting since 2006 "To gain economic and staff time efficiencies associated with setting quotas". Even in years of extreme flooding of nest they do not reduce the quota for that year.

    I do not believe that the survey data is as good as it could be but I know we have a better chance of improving it if it is left in Statute vrs rule that the FWC must follow it.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,935 Captain
    You weren't told not to SHARE it. You were told not to FORWARD it because the link won't work for anyone not using your IP address. Another reason that it pays to participate and sign up for e-mail blasts. Still, there are other ways available to give your input on the issue, in addition to the online survey.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,329 Admiral
    All the other ones you could share,and forward? Why was this one diff?

    Please enlighten the rest of us on how we can give our input?
  • Walker DogWalker Dog Posts: 1,935 Captain
    I read the reason in your post. I would have guessed you could too, but maybe not.
  • David BDavid B Posts: 1,907 Captain
    The studies they conduct are useless now. They conduct light surveys and most alligators sink long before they can be counted. We don't need the data. Their numbers are steadily increasing regardless of all the harvesting being conducted. The numbers we are harvesting is minimal at best.

    You do realize there is more to the surveys than just the night light counts? Suitable habitat is another variable that can be taken into consideration as well. The night light survey counts are percentages use to calculate the numbers. Alligators that "sink", if seen at a distance while sinking are recorded as unknowns. Depending on what the survey physically sees, that unknown alligator may be placed into an unknown category such as : unknown 4, 6,9, 9+. Water temperature and air temperatures are two other variables that are calculated into the formulation. Vegetation types, percentage coverage of vegetation, waves, wave heights, weather- cloud cover, moon light as well are all taken at each survey site specific to the individual survey being conducted there. Replications are done for each survey to ensure accuracy. The folks who survey are specifically trained in doing them. The number of people that conduct the surveys are kept to a minimum to ensure a consistency throughout the areas surveyed. There is still more that goes into this in determining permit numbers for future hunts.
    I know that the folks who are conducting these surveys are professional wildlife biologists and statisticians who have years of experience in doing this. There are years of variables that are put into this model to obtain the information. This isn't compiled on a one year survey and then a number is formulated.

    Let me ask this. Why is it that some units have seen an increase in permit numbers and others have seen a decrease in permit numbers? If these surveys are worth anything, why is this happening. To listen to your anecdotal compilation this shouldn't be happening. I highly suspect your way of thinking in this.
    Increasing MMGW or climate change, one twist off at a time.
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    All the other ones you could share,and forward? Why was this one diff?

    Please enlighten the rest of us on how we can give our input?

    They are doing surveys with unique ID's so that one person can not keep taking the survey to try to have more influence. If you have additional contacts that did not get the survey they could send one out on request.
    This was a survey on license issuance of alligator permits. Bill Hunter and Harry Dutton are the people in charge of those areas and can be contacted directly.

    The biggest way to have influence is to attend the commission meetings and voice you opinion. If you can not attend the meetings I would start by emailing the commissioners. http://myfwc.com/contact/fwc-staff/senior-staff/contact-commissioners/ This is a simple form that will get the message to them as well as to the FWC staff.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • etommy28etommy28 Posts: 311 Deckhand
    can some one please explain this to me....
    4. Expands the prvileges of lifetime hunting and lifetime participants. This will allow many of the
    sportsman's licenseholders, if purchased before July 1, 1998, to exemptions currently offered for other
    include the recreational alligator hunting and alligator hunting recreational licenses (ex., persons who are
    assistant licenses. under 16). The fee associated with the
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    David B wrote: »
    Let me ask this. Why is it that some units have seen an increase in permit numbers and others have seen a decrease in permit numbers? If these surveys are worth anything, why is this happening. To listen to your anecdotal compilation this shouldn't be happening. I highly suspect your way of thinking in this.

    David, This IS the same agency that counts the panthers too right? What YOU should suspect is The FFWWC way of thinking. Their DATA is flawed at best. I've seen a couple of these FFWCC alligator surveys conducted on PUBLIC lands. They are NOTHING compared to how we conduct ours. All your BS about what's involved sounds good on paper, but I live in the real world. I know you always defend them when anyone calls them out on anything. Also, I'm pretty sure I know what's involved in conducting a real alligator survey. But thanks.
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
  • cfthcfth Posts: 416 Deckhand
    I still can't figure out why change it.

    It seems to me as the license has been a particular way for the last 15 years. I'm not sure why people who are new to gator hunting feel the need to try and make changes.

    If this goes through and hunters aren't able to sell gators. I see a significant decrease in sales. Now that may be temporary. But that will still have a huge effect to not only the economy but also the license sales.

    Talk about changing a market in the state.

    As for eggs I feel several different ways.

    I will say this. Nobody gave a **** about the golden 30 when eggs were at 10-15 per. Now that there's big money everybody is on the band wagon.

    I think the best solution would be to bid out the places they don't collect and let them continue.

    You can always buy a license from one of the "30".

    Everything has a price.

    But for me it's not a hobby or something I just got into. It's my livelihood and something I have done all my life.
    So I def have a different way of thinking about it.
    Capt. Grayson Padrick
    www.centralfloridatrophyhunts.com
    Alligator Hunts, Alligator Hunting Equipment, Alligator and Wild Game Processing
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    etommy28 wrote: »
    can some one please explain this to me....
    4. Expands the prvileges of lifetime hunting and lifetime participants. This will allow many of the
    sportsman's licenseholders, if purchased before July 1, 1998, to exemptions currently offered for other
    include the recreational alligator hunting and alligator hunting recreational licenses (ex., persons who are
    assistant licenses. under 16). The fee associated with the

    When these licenses were purchased the people were supposed to be exempt from any new non-commercial fees that the FWC was to create in the future. Since this is a new fee of such they should be exempt and has been added for clarity. July 1998 they changed the license to no longer include such new fee exemptions.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • David BDavid B Posts: 1,907 Captain
    Mark,

    I am sorry that I didn't read your entire post before I posted a reply. By all means then why don't you copyright your techniques and sell it to the biological folks who are doing the work statewide.

    Please share with everyone here what is being done incorrectly by the state and what it is that you are doing so differently.
    Increasing MMGW or climate change, one twist off at a time.
  • David BDavid B Posts: 1,907 Captain
    Cfth-- I agree with you. Watch what happens to the cost of processing if the commercial sales goes away. I wonder if it will even be legal for the processors to accept animals in their facilities if this happens.

    As a side note. I lost a 12+ monster in deep water this past Saturday. He knew where every rock and ledge was in the canal that I hunted him on. I can't sleep at night thinking about it. :banghead
    Increasing MMGW or climate change, one twist off at a time.
  • binellishtrbinellishtr Posts: 8,329 Admiral
    BOHICA
  • bgeorgebgeorge Plant City FLPosts: 1,502 Captain
    cfth wrote: »
    I still can't figure out why change it.

    It seems to me as the license has been a particular way for the last 15 years. I'm not sure why people who are new to gator hunting feel the need to try and make changes.

    If this goes through and hunters aren't able to sell gators. I see a significant decrease in sales. Now that may be temporary. But that will still have a huge effect to not only the economy but also the license sales.

    Talk about changing a market in the state.

    As for eggs I feel several different ways.

    I will say this. Nobody gave a **** about the golden 30 when eggs were at 10-15 per. Now that there's big money everybody is on the band wagon.

    I think the best solution would be to bid out the places they don't collect and let them continue.

    You can always buy a license from one of the "30".

    Everything has a price.

    But for me it's not a hobby or something I just got into. It's my livelihood and something I have done all my life.
    So I def have a different way of thinking about it.

    The change to recreational is as a result of FWC wanting to get Federal match of aprox 200,000 and to increase out of state travel to FL. It is not as a result of requests from the public. Things that I have been working for are things like the exemptions of minors from needing an agent license and not to exempt every senior citizen from needing a license. I too believe that it will dramatically change the program. Right now it is perceived by FWC to be a recreational program operating under a commercial permit. By moving it under recreational they can get the Federal match. In years that the market was down there were considerable more permits available later on. People who only were hunting for the profit dropped out. Right now the demand is high and those people who are not in it for the money are there to replace them.

    As for the egg quotas there is no ability to transfer the permits in rule or statute. The only way of transfer is if a person fails to participate for a period of time their slot is to be advertised in the Florida Register and applications received. Then there is to be a random draw for the slot. They have done this process for some of the hatchling permits. While FWC has honored the sale of the permit it is outside of rule and statute. I would like to see all farmers be able to participate with at preference for those who are actually going to farm them in State. While the golden 30 is not part of the statute review, the part that applies should have included the fees. I personally do not feel like the people of Florida are being compensated for the resource that is being removed from our State. Very few of the alligators collected from public waters stay on a Florida alligator farm. They are transferred out of state and provide little economic benefit to Florida. $4 to the FWC is just way to low.

    Some of the other primary land managers may see fit to collect additional funds through their programs instead of having FWC do it. I am sure they have projects that need funding like putting up fences to keep everyone else out. I would much rather see FWC collect more money and have a project done that would improve access to the outdoor resources.
    The man who moves a mountain begins by carrying away small stones. Hopefully the next man is not dropping his stones on the mountain you are trying to move.
  • gottheitch22gottheitch22 Posts: 4,187 Captain
    How about the wardens learn the rules we have first .
    living life as i like
  • huntsfloridahuntsflorida Posts: 370 Deckhand
    David B wrote: »
    Mark,

    I am sorry that I didn't read your entire post before I posted a reply. By all means then why don't you copyright your techniques and sell it to the biological folks who are doing the work statewide.

    Please share with everyone here what is being done incorrectly by the state and what it is that you are doing so differently.

    It's what's Not being done. The difference is my living depends on my data and my populations and how healthy they are. The state don't give a ****. They are nothing but a political organization. They make up the "data" to suit their needs. Look at every APEX predator program. They are ALL screwed up. Have you read the 2014 panther count report? It's all about FEDERAL money. They want to change the alligator rules so they can receive FEDERAL FUNDS.

    What should be "suspect" to you is an agency that has the ability to create rules and statutes for THEIR own benefit.
    Capt. Mark Clemons
    Everglades Adventures Inc.
    Alligators Inc.
    Alligators International LLC.
    www.huntsflorida.com
    South Florida's Finest Hunting Safari's for over 25 years for:
    Osceola Turkey, Alligator and Whitetail on over
    75,000 acres of South Florida's most private pristine ranches.

    Alligator Processing in State Certified and Inspected Facility.
    Follow our clients results on Facebook:
    https://www.facebook.com/EvergladesAdventures
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