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Jesus Debunked

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  • gregglgreggl Posts: 21,594 Officer
    Now there is a 'Satan', too?

    'Jesus H. Christ.'
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Ghosts, magic, demons, angels - the entire litany of imaginary supernatural things.
    greggl wrote: »
    Now there is a 'Satan', too?

    'Jesus H. Christ.'

    But, as usual, all the non-Christian magical spooks are BS & complete bunk.
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Now let's see what a credentialed textural historian has to say.

    Did Jesus Exist?
    Bart D. Ehrman PhD.
    Author, 'Forged: Writing in the Name of God—Why the Bible’s Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are'

    In a society in which people still claim the Holocaust did not happen, and in which there are resounding claims that the American president is, in fact, a Muslim born on foreign soil, is it any surprise to learn that the greatest figure in the history of Western civilization, the man on whom the most powerful and influential social, political, economic, cultural and religious institution in the world -- the Christian church -- was built, the man worshipped, literally, by billions of people today -- is it any surprise to hear that Jesus never even existed?

    That is the claim made by a small but growing cadre of (published ) writers, bloggers and Internet junkies who call themselves mythicists. This unusually vociferous group of nay-sayers maintains that Jesus is a myth invented for nefarious (or altruistic) purposes by the early Christians who modeled their savior along the lines of pagan divine men who, it is alleged, were also born of a virgin on Dec. 25, who also did miracles, who also died as an atonement for sin and were then raised from the dead.

    Few of these mythicists are actually scholars trained in ancient history, religion, biblical studies or any cognate field, let alone in the ancient languages generally thought to matter for those who want to say something with any degree of authority about a Jewish teacher who (allegedly) lived in first-century Palestine. There are a couple of exceptions: of the hundreds -- thousands? -- of mythicists, two (to my knowledge) actually have Ph.D. credentials in relevant fields of study. But even taking these into account, there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world. And it is no wonder why. These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.

    Why then is the mythicist movement growing, with advocates so confident of their views and vocal -- even articulate -- in their denunciation of the radical idea that Jesus actually existed? It is, in no small part, because these deniers of Jesus are at the same time denouncers of religion -- a breed of human now very much in vogue. And what better way to malign the religious views of the vast majority of religious persons in the western world, which remains, despite everything, overwhelmingly Christian, than to claim that the historical founder of their religion was in fact the figment of his followers' imagination?

    The view, however, founders on its own premises. The reality -- sad or salutary -- is that Jesus was real. And that is the subject of my new book, "Did Jesus Exist?"

    It is true that Jesus is not mentioned in any Roman sources of his day. That should hardly count against his existence, however, since these same sources mention scarcely anyone from his time and place. Not even the famous Jewish historian, Josephus, or even more notably, the most powerful and important figure of his day, Pontius Pilate.

    It is also true that our best sources about Jesus, the early Gospels, are riddled with problems. These were written decades after Jesus' life by biased authors who are at odds with one another on details up and down the line. But historians can never dismiss sources simply because they are biased. You may not trust Rush Limbaugh's views of Sandra Fluke, but he certainly provides evidence that she exists.

    The question is not whether sources are biased but whether biased sources can be used to yield historically reliable information, once their biased chaff is separated from the historical kernel. And historians have devised ways of doing just that.

    With respect to Jesus, we have numerous, independent accounts of his life in the sources lying behind the Gospels (and the writings of Paul) -- sources that originated in Jesus' native tongue Aramaic and that can be dated to within just a year or two of his life (before the religion moved to convert pagans in droves). Historical sources like that are is pretty astounding for an ancient figure of any kind. Moreover, we have relatively extensive writings from one first-century author, Paul, who acquired his information within a couple of years of Jesus' life and who actually knew, first hand, Jesus' closest disciple Peter and his own brother James. If Jesus did not exist, you would think his brother would know it.

    Moreover, the claim that Jesus was simply made up falters on every ground. The alleged parallels between Jesus and the "pagan" savior-gods in most instances reside in the modern imagination: We do not have accounts of others who were born to virgin mothers and who died as an atonement for sin and then were raised from the dead (despite what the sensationalists claim ad nauseum in their propagandized versions).

    Moreover, aspects of the Jesus story simply would not have been invented by anyone wanting to make up a new Savior. The earliest followers of Jesus declared that he was a crucified messiah. But prior to Christianity, there were no Jews at all, of any kind whatsoever, who thought that there would be a future crucified messiah. The messiah was to be a figure of grandeur and power who overthrew the enemy. Anyone who wanted to make up a messiah would make him like that. Why did the Christians not do so? Because they believed specifically that Jesus was the Messiah. And they knew full well that he was crucified. The Christians did not invent Jesus. They invented the idea that the messiah had to be crucified.

    One may well choose to resonate with the concerns of our modern and post-modern cultural despisers of established religion (or not). But surely the best way to promote any such agenda is not to deny what virtually every sane historian on the planet -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, pagan, agnostic, atheist, what have you -- has come to conclude based on a range of compelling historical evidence.

    Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.




    Do you have anything from someone without a vested interest?
  • Do you have anything from someone without a vested interest?

    Do you mean like someone who isn't a credentialed and award winning professor of historical documents who has not published 25 academically recognized textural criticisms on the authenticity of the new testament and is not one on the world's leading researchers and authorities on the development of early Christianity?

    Yeah, that would be your guy, the comic book writer.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    Ssoto0055 wrote: »
    Hopefully you aren't fumbling your words when Allah asks you why you didn't believe in his one and only son Muhammad. Perhaps though, we're overreacting. The light we see when are dying might be nothing more than the opening of the next vajina that's going to bring us screaming into this world.

    Hey....good point!

    .......though I don't believe that you got the muslim thing right...

    Wasn't Muhammad the messenger of Allah....not his son?

    His real name was Abū al-Qāsim Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim and was born a man...570 to 632.

    Muslims consider him to have restored the unaltered original monotheistic faith of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets.

    So....I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I'm probably gonna be OK when I have to stand tall before the man......
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Do you mean like someone who isn't a credentialed and award winning professor of historical documents who has not published 25 academically recognized textural criticisms on the authenticity of the new testament and is not one on the world's leading researchers and authorities on the development of early Christianity?

    Yeah, that would be your guy, the comic book writer.

    Someone who isn't a self proclaimed evangelical christian would be a start.
  • FlashFlash Posts: 11,215 AG
    So do you believe in astrology? Who do you pray to when you are in dire need, when a family member is dying, etc.? You must be very lonely.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Never seem more learned than the people you are with. Wear your learning like a pocket watch and keep it hidden. Do not pull it out to count the hours, but give the time when you are asked. --- Lord Chesterfield
  • Someone who isn't a self proclaimed evangelical christian would be a start.

    He is an agnostic.


    Feel better?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • FreeLinerFreeLiner Posts: 1,573 Captain
    He is an agnostic.


    Feel better?

    Game. Set. Match.
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    He is an agnostic.


    Feel better?

    Much I got to his early years and stopped reading, but I still don't see where he says there is any reference outside the gospel and it's writings of Jesus.
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Flash wrote: »
    So do you believe in astrology? Who do you pray to when you are in dire need, when a family member is dying, etc.? You must be very lonely.

    Lonely? Not at all.

    I grew up in a religious household. My father was as I called it a bartender at the local Episcopalian church on Sunday morning. I have seen lots of people pray for lots of things but have never seen one answered by god. Not one.... ever. You can sit on your knees wishing something to happen or go make it happen I'm not a wishing kinda guy.

    And as for astrology beyond the naming of the days of the week not much, which brings up the question why is it SUNday and not SONday.....
  • Much I got to his early years and stopped reading, but I still don't see where he says there is any reference outside the gospel and it's writings of Jesus.

    keep reading. He is a very interesting guy.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Baits OutBaits Out Posts: 12,331 AG
    Flash wrote: »
    . . . . Who do you pray to when you are in dire need, when a family member is dying, etc.? You must be very lonely.

    Not at all.

    Logic is also a very comforting refuge.

    A prayer = a request to temporarily suspend all the known laws of the universe for the benefit of a single petitioner.

    As George Carlin said, "Works about 50% of the time. . . . Just like the voodoo lady intensely squeezing the goat's testicles."

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<

    :thumbsup

    A southeast Florida laid back beach bum and volunteer bikini assessor who lives on island time. 
  • Lucky7Team2Lucky7Team2 Posts: 6,794 Officer
    I was at a red light last week. I normally do not give to the homeless at the corner, but I saw a guy fairly well dressed with his wife. Sign said he last his job and trying to feed his kids. Probably full of it but figured I would give him a few bucks. So I hand him the money, he throws his head up and yells "Thank You Jesus". He looks at me and I say my name is Ernie, not Jesus. I drove off.
  • SchmidtySchmidty Posts: 6,814 Admiral
    Baits Out wrote: »
    Not at all.

    Logic is also a very comforting refuge.

    A prayer = a request to temporarily suspend all the known laws of the universe for the benefit of a single petitioner.


    I like to call it ..."Dealing With God"

    It normally starts out with...... "If you do this for me.........then I'll do that for you"...

    It get's pretty funny if you can get 150 people .....especially the kids.....to tell you what they've asked God for...

    ....and sometimes it's sad as well.............

    As for me...I am living proof that God simply doesn't do lottery requests.....no matter what good you say will be done with the loot.

    But somehow "Baits Out" I think that you have some idea that all prayer is about "getting something"......it isn't.

    Prayer to God is really about glory to him....not "stuff"!:angel
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    keep reading. He is a very interesting guy.

    I did but am not impressed with his reasons there actually was a Jesus. Lack of any outside evidence is overwhelming.
  • Not really.

    You have many authenticated letters from Paul and Peter for example and Josepheus , which are not forgeries.

    But you can be happier that a comic book author meets your expectations rather than a qualified academic do.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,347 Admiral
    Lonely? Not at all.

    I grew up in a religious household. My father was as I called it a bartender at the local Episcopalian church on Sunday morning. I have seen lots of people pray for lots of things but have never seen one answered by god. Not one.... ever. You can sit on your knees wishing something to happen or go make it happen I'm not a wishing kinda guy.

    And as for astrology beyond the naming of the days of the week not much, which brings up the question why is it SUNday and not SONday.....

    James 4:3 English Standard Version

    3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • Yeah , you asked wrong. :grin
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    I thought Jesus was long dead before Josepheus was born?
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Spineyman wrote: »
    James 4:3 English Standard Version

    3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

    Yea well that's some important information those doing the praying could use I guess.....
  • I thought Jesus was long dead before Josepheus was born?

    A lot of people are dead before historians are born.
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,347 Admiral
    I thought Jesus was long dead before Josepheus was born?

    And there you have it...You thought. The carnal mind is at enmity with God, it can not be subject to the Law of God nor will it ever be. God is not a slot machine. You put your money in and get this out. In order to please God, first you must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Jesus is not dead but has been raised from the dead in bodily form.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • :rolleyes
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    A lot of people are dead before historians are born.

    I wrote a story about a guy named Santa when I was younger.
  • Were you an historian or a storyteller?
    "If I can't win, I won't play." - Doris Colecchio.

    "Well Gary, the easiest way to look tall is to stand in a room full of short people." - Curtis Bostick

    "All these forums, with barely any activity, are like a neglected old cemetery that no one visits anymore."- anonymouse
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Spineyman wrote: »
    And there you have it...You thought. The carnal mind is at enmity with God, it can not be subject to the Law of God nor will it ever be. God is not a slot machine. You put your money in and get this out. In order to please God, first you must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Jesus is not dead but has been raised from the dead in bodily form.

    Well according to Gary's historian Jesus is deader than disco.
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Were you an historian or a storyteller?

    I told everyone I was a historian.... Seriously I did.

    Do you think it made a difference? Some people did believe me. :grin
  • Conchy CrackerConchy Cracker Posts: 10,454 Officer
    Gary What comic books did Vankin author I need to read them.
  • gregglgreggl Posts: 21,594 Officer
    How much longer before we're convinced a dude existed?

    I want to see you prove the Harry Potter abilities.
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