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Phase 4 redraws are up

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  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,290 Admiral
    JRussell wrote: »
    Seems to me that's exactly what you said.

    Ok I realize you just don't get the concept and you don't care to try.

    You've taken that out of context.
    If your argument is based on fair distribution of chance at obtaining a permit, then more choices actually equals more chances to win a permit, not less. Sure, it's less of a chance than it was under FCFS, but FCFS is no longer a viable option. Therefore, any argument using FCFS as an odds derivative is fallacious.

    What that means is IF you cools log in fast enough and IF you were able to check out before others then your odds of getting a permit are greater with FCFS. But since FCFS is over, odds are increased under the random draw with more choices an not less.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • JRussellJRussell Posts: 1,411 Officer
    huntmstr wrote: »
    If this is your contention and you want to limit each hunt type to 1-2 choices, then an individual's odds of getting a permit are diminished compared to having 5 choices. There is I other way to look at it.

    Yes that is what I've been saying since the day Ph 4 started (along with several others).

    I see your point, but with the extremely limited amount of available permits only having 1-2 choices increases everyone's overall chances at getting a shot to get their 1st choice.

    Using your example of 1 DI permit and 3000 applicants choosing it as one of their 5 choices is a 1:3000 chance. Well all of those people can also choose Dupuis and Allapatah as their other choices making all 3 of those WMA's a 1:3000 chance. Now lets say 1000 of those people choose Dupuis as their 1st choice if they only got 1 choice. The other 1000 choose Allapatah as their only choice. Now there's a 1:1000 chance for DI, Dupuis and allapatah instead of a 1:3000 chance.

    Yes the permits will be distributed either way, but it seems to me like they would be distributed more evenly among the total number of applicants if there were less choices.
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  • JRussellJRussell Posts: 1,411 Officer
    huntmstr wrote: »
    It's only irrelevant if you weren't constantly bringing up FCFS. But since you continue to compare fairness of one system over another and continue to argue fewer choices per person, it is relevant. It's also relevant to see how many you got pre-change. If I were Gettig permits every week in FCFS and none in random, I might be upset too, if I weren't more concerned about fairness for all having the chance to apply.

    Look, you've made your mind up. You've posted your reasons. Most don't agree with you and the response has been overwhelmingly positive at FWC. Sorry you feel so disenfranchised, but you're in the minority.

    I'm not bringing up FCFS. Go re-read the thread its you who keeps bringing it up lol.

    Actually most have said they do agree about the 5 choice issue. Additionally the poll we had here showed the majority didn't want the change. Not sure how you figure I'm in the minority.
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  • flydownflydown Posts: 6,464 Admiral
    JRussell wrote: »
    Because as I've stated about 3 times already there is no Ph 3 anymore and this discussion is about Ph 4.
    .

    "Mark McGwire: I'm not here to talk about the past permits.

    Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md.: ... Are you taking the fifth?

    Mark McGwire: I'm not here to discuss past permits. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

    Sorry boys, couldn't resist!
    DYING for me was the most HE could do. LIVING for HIM is the least I can do
  • spfldbowhunterspfldbowhunter Posts: 928 Officer
    I wouldn't mind seeing the choices per hunt type decreased from 5 as it is now, if nothing else it would increase the number of hunters being drawn. As several have said, they don't put in for all 5 as it is now anyway so is decreasing it that big of an issue?

    "Fair" isn't going to be a concrete concept in a setting like this, FWC made their decision and I'm sure there was plenty of feedback on both sides of the issue. Hopefully they'll continue to be open to ideas to improve the phase 4 process going into next season.
    Eph. 3:20
  • JRussellJRussell Posts: 1,411 Officer
    flydown wrote: »
    "Mark McGwire: I'm not here to talk about the past permits.

    Rep. Elijah Cummings, D-Md.: ... Are you taking the fifth?

    Mark McGwire: I'm not here to discuss past permits. I'm here to be positive about this subject."

    Sorry boys, couldn't resist!

    Yeah let's all take turns and talk about what permits we got in Ph 3, 2, & 1. Heck lets just go back and discuss all the permits we've had over the past 5yrs. That will definitely contribute useful info to this discussion.
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  • flydownflydown Posts: 6,464 Admiral
    JRussell wrote: »
    Yeah let's all take turns and talk about what permits we got in Ph 3, 2, & 1. Heck lets just go back and discuss all the permits we've had over the past 5yrs. That will definitely contribute useful info to this discussion.

    Lighten up, Francis. It was a joke.
    DYING for me was the most HE could do. LIVING for HIM is the least I can do
  • down4dacountdown4dacount Posts: 2,598 Captain
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  • If_it_flies_it_diesIf_it_flies_it_dies Posts: 1,133 Officer
    I still like the preference point idea too, why not get 1 per week you are unsuccessful? That seems more fair anyway and a sure way of distributing the permits more evenly. I'm tired of talking about it though. Besides, if FWC really gave a flying fart they would have looked to get serious input from the hunters and made the change next summer, not spur of the moment. If it's what the hunting community wanted so be it. They threw up their arms instead of putting the time and effort into getting it right. There's no denying that. I wouldn't be surprised if they eliminated them all together, not because it's the right thing to do; just the easy way out.
  • Centropomus spp.Centropomus spp. Posts: 343 Deckhand
    Besides, if FWC really gave a flying fart they would have looked to get serious input from the hunters and made the change next summer, not spur of the moment. If it's what the hunting community wanted so be it. They threw up their arms instead of putting the time and effort into getting it right. There's no denying that.

    EXACTLY!!!! X infinity
  • pbsnookerpbsnooker Posts: 882 Officer
    5 choices betters your odds if selected in the lottery before permits are gone! Simple as that! If you have one choice, and selected your chances are less! How can someone not get this. 100 permit ( fictional number) are distributed 100 whether it takes 100 draws or 500 draws.
  • If_it_flies_it_diesIf_it_flies_it_dies Posts: 1,133 Officer
    pbsnooker wrote: »
    5 choices betters your odds if selected in the lottery before permits are gone! Simple as that! If you have one choice, and selected your chances are less! How can someone not get this. 100 permit ( fictional number) are distributed 100 whether it takes 100 draws or 500 draws.

    This is true but only if you have 5 places you want to hunt. Your odds go down drastically if you only have 1 or two hunts you really want because everyone is putting in for 15. Some people don't have the means or time to travel, scout and hunt places they never have before. I am guessing the vast majority of hunters really only want 1-3 hunts that come up each week.

    Think of it this way. You are entering a raffle for some charity. There are 15 items to raffle off. You could put 1 ticket in each bucket IF you wanted each of those things. But you would be much better served putting your 15 tickets into a single item you wanted. That's not possible with this system so people say WTH and put a ticket in for each item (or in this case quota hunts) reducing your odds of getting what you really want. I don't see how anyone can't understand this....

    So yes you are correct your odds may be the same or better for getting A hunt, your odds of getting one hunt you really want are crap.
  • pbsnookerpbsnooker Posts: 882 Officer
    I don't know one person putting in for 15 hunts a week personally, but if someone wants to travel to wherever they pull a permit, all the power to them. Last week I put in for 1 gun and two muzzle. Did you put in for 15 hunts? If so why?
  • pbsnookerpbsnooker Posts: 882 Officer
    Same odds of getting the one hunt you want if someone is drawed before you, wouldn't matter matter if he had 1 choice or 5 if he had it as his first
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,036 Moderator
    This is true but only if you have 5 places you want to hunt. Your odds go down drastically if you only have 1 or two hunts you really want because everyone is putting in for 15. Some people don't have the means or time to travel, scout and hunt places they never have before. I am guessing the vast majority of hunters really only want 1-3 hunts that come up each week.

    Think of it this way. You are entering a raffle for some charity. There are 15 items to raffle off. You could put 1 ticket in each bucket IF you wanted each of those things. But you would be much better served putting your 15 tickets into a single item you wanted. That's not possible with this system so people say WTH and put a ticket in for each item (or in this case quota hunts) reducing your odds of getting what you really want. I don't see how anyone can't understand this....

    So yes you are correct your odds may be the same or better for getting A hunt, your odds of getting one hunt you really want are crap.


    This is the crux of the matter for me. Your opinion on it depends on what you're looking for. Some people are looking for ANY permit and some are looking for just one particular permit. I'm not in this trying to get just any permit. I'm in this to get a permit for 2 or 3 specific hunts. Under the old system the only realistic option you had was to get one permit each week so IMO I don't see the need for everyone to have 5 choices for every hunt type.

    If I had no place to hunt and just wanted ANY permit I'd apply for all 5 choices every week in hopes of getting something. It just so happens that I have a place to hunt but if I didn't I certainly wouldn't hang my hat on the redraw system.
  • If_it_flies_it_diesIf_it_flies_it_dies Posts: 1,133 Officer
    And a preference point system would probably be the best option in this situation. The guys who want to hunt wherever can burn their points and the guys who want a specific hunt can save up for it. I could be wrong but it works in my mind. :shrug
  • fisherking73fisherking73 Posts: 209 Officer
    Random drawing regardless of number of choices is still in my mind the fairer route than the old lets see who can log in and who can't fastest. It takes computer issues (slow, frozen, crashes) out of the equation. Now you just put in and my chance is just as good as every other single individual that applied for that same hunt. Like I said earlier, last 2-3 years no success in redraws due to work, no access at needed times etc...... Drew a permit in phase 4 only because I did not have to be sitting in front of a computer tuesday morning. Old way, I still would not have drawn because I was working at the "golden minute" of redraw application.
  • james 14james 14 Posts: 3,036 Moderator
    And a preference point system would probably be the best option in this situation. The guys who want to hunt wherever can burn their points and the guys who want a specific hunt can save up for it. I could be wrong but it works in my mind. :shrug

    The only problem I see with that is now I have to put in every week even if I don't want a particular permit just to get a preference point.
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,290 Admiral
    james 14 wrote: »
    This is the crux of the matter for me. Your opinion on it depends on what you're looking for. Some people are looking for ANY permit and some are looking for just one particular permit. I'm not in this trying to get just any permit. I'm in this to get a permit for 2 or 3 specific hunts. Under the old system the only realistic option you had was to get one permit each week so IMO I don't see the need for everyone to have 5 choices for every hunt type.

    If I had no place to hunt and just wanted ANY permit I'd apply for all 5 choices every week in hopes of getting something. It just so happens that I have a place to hunt but if I didn't I certainly wouldn't hang my hat on the redraw system.

    So what about the weeks when there are 2 or 3 choice permits that you would be stoked to get? Do you only try for one or do you put in all those choices in order that you would want them?

    For instance, last week's drawing there were 3 permits I really wanted for archery. All areas I know and know I have a good chance of putting some meat in the freezer. I listed all three choices, and as fate would have it, I got none. That's the luck of the draw. But I would have been just as happy getting my second or third choice as the first. This week there were only 2 permits I wanted for archery and I was lucky enough to get my first choice. But again, I would have been jazzed to get either. There were no ML hunts I wanted this week so I didn't even apply for them. But next week there could be multiple. My chance is still only 1 in the total number of persons applying for each hunt. Makes no difference if the guy ahead of me has chosen 1 or 5 places to apply. If I only care about 1 and he cares about the same one, who ever gets drawn first gets it. Limiting him on the other 4 won't affect me at all.

    The idea behind the redraw is to give people an opportunity to draw a permit they want and can use. More choices helps prioritize those chances and keeps you in the game longer. It's fair. It gives you better odds at scoring a permit each week than 1 choice (if there is more than 1 permit you could use). And it's all based on luck.

    I guarantee you this... reducing your application choice to 1 will not decrease the amount of whining you hear from those who don't get drawn.

    As for preference points for redraws, that's a bit much don't you guys think? You want RLIS to populate your account with a weekly preference for the redraws knowing full well the problems they have every time they try to ADD something to the process? For goodness sake it took them 3 years to get the annual preference points correctly transferred, credited and valuated and you want them to do it weekly? Good Lord! I can already hear the complaining and whining that would create.

    FWC and RLIS are not going to complicate this any more than they have to. As I said before, we are the only state that allows for returned permits and redraws. This is a courtesy FWC offers. The more you complain about it, the more likely they are to take it away entirely.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • Centropomus spp.Centropomus spp. Posts: 343 Deckhand
    huntmstr wrote: »
    As I said before, we are the only state that allows for returned permits and redraws.

    While this is beneficial to some folks here, it makes me wonder if Florida is all alone on redraws because our system is so backwards and difficult compared to other states. I have limited experience on out of state public hunts, but you must admit that it seems Florida has more rules than most states. You have to have a permit to hunt here, you can shoot any deer but spotted fawns, you can only shoot does the last week of archery, you can shoot any buck with 5 inch antlers, you must have 3 points on a side, you can shoot turkeys in archery, you can't shoot turkeys in archery, you can only shoot hogs bigger than 20" shoulder height, you can shoot any hog, etc, etc, etc!
  • DONY 1DONY 1 Posts: 557 Officer
    So because they're incompetent we should have to suffer Chuck? Last I remember WE are paying them to do the job. I was under the impression that the land is publicly owned and they were civil servants that are paid with public dollars. And if any of you guys really think there aren't a ton of people putting in for any hunt they can then you're nuts. I'd be willing to bet that there are more no shows since the change than there was before. I've been able to pull a couple permits through the new draws but was much more successful beforehand. I'd rather see fcfs but have come to accept it for what it is. Due to a few people not wanting to hear complaints about a flawed system that wasn't delivering what we were paying for, they shut it down. Taking the easy way out as has become typical with today's civil servant at every turn. And now they're asking for input on doing the same thing with gators. Wonderful.
    Don't cost nuttin to be nice
  • lil_ronnie386lil_ronnie386 Posts: 204 Officer
    I like the preference idea, they could do 2 different columns. Phase 1 preference and then have a phase 4 preference. This would help the guys like me getting nothing week after week a chance(yes it's random draw I'm not lucky)(never won powerball nor scratch off tickets) it doesn't surprise me... And still have it where you can apply for 50 choices each application and all the problems would be solved, and we all kill registry bucks. That easy :driver::machinegun

    Phase 4
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    Dad 0-3
    Uncle 0-3
  • spfldbowhunterspfldbowhunter Posts: 928 Officer
    I'm not buying the "keep complaining and we'll take away redraws" bit. FWC made a decision with no formal input, and they have to take the responsibility for it good or bad. This is what happens when you don't stick to a process, they made a change mid-stream despite what the current regulations state and wanna curl up when folks don't like it?!? A public records request on relavent documents, emails, etc... could be their worst nightmare at this point.

    I appreciate that they sent out a survey at least for the gator tags, they should have done it for fall hunts too after the current season.

    FWC is a state department, and I don't appreciate the constant carrot on the stick that's waived around here by a moderator saying "don't complain, or you'll get nothing."
    Eph. 3:20
  • snowmansnowman Posts: 446 Officer
    huntmstr wrote: »
    "Because he can" is a stupid reason. You can smoke crack too. Does that mean you will or you should?

    If people are applying for permits they have no intention of using simply because they can then there are a lot more stupid people out there than I ever anticipated... and that's saying something.

    Fortunately for the rest of your argument, the numbers don't support your claim. The number of applicants now that it's random draw are not significantly different than they were when it was FCFS. The number of no shows has not increased either. As for permit distribution, more people are getting hunts than before and everyone has an equal chance at drawing a permit randomly as opposed to FCFS where only a few who were fast enough to get logged in before the crash were sucking up all the permits.

    How doo u kno the numbers didnt increase with random draw with all tgese ppl who claim tgey had to work but can now put in and me my self account for 7 extra tgat have never tried fcfs and also ur just naive abour ppl r not gunna put in for permits just bc they can
  • DONY 1DONY 1 Posts: 557 Officer
    Eddie had told me the were about 9000 people applying weekly with fcfs and they expected 20-30,000 with the new draws. I would think one phone call could answer that question.
    Don't cost nuttin to be nice
  • AllenRAllenR Posts: 2,702 Captain
    DONY 1 wrote: »
    So because they're incompetent we should have to suffer Chuck? Last I remember WE are paying them to do the job. I was under the impression that the land is publicly owned and they were civil servants that are paid with public dollars. And if any of you guys really think there aren't a ton of people putting in for any hunt they can then you're nuts. I'd be willing to bet that there are more no shows since the change than there was before. I've been able to pull a couple permits through the new draws but was much more successful beforehand. I'd rather see fcfs but have come to accept it for what it is. Due to a few people not wanting to hear complaints about a flawed system that wasn't delivering what we were paying for, they shut it down. Taking the easy way out as has become typical with today's civil servant at every turn. And now they're asking for input on doing the same thing with gators. Wonderful.
    I agree 100% with the bolded line, Doug. If anyone doesn't think the no-shows are not increasing they are a fool. I primarily hunt 1 WMA (which I cannot even draw anymore). It's not a hard to get permit, or it didn't used to be. Out of 220 permits for 1st 9 days, I will bet you there is not 100 people there.

    And last year I swung in to Homosassa on the way home one weekend when there was a hog quota just to check what had been brought in.. The guy at the check station was sitting there reading a book and said ZERO hunters showed up for it. ANd he said that was the second time that has happened
  • bowhunter4lifebowhunter4life Posts: 1,446 Officer
    I would like to once again thank FWC for creating the new redraw system which is fair for EVERYONE! Also thanks to Eddie White for his patience in dealing with my fellow hunters. FCFS is over,get a grip fellas!
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,290 Admiral
    I'm not buying the "keep complaining and we'll take away redraws" bit. FWC made a decision with no formal input, and they have to take the responsibility for it good or bad. This is what happens when you don't stick to a process, they made a change mid-stream despite what the current regulations state and wanna curl up when folks don't like it?!? A public records request on relavent documents, emails, etc... could be their worst nightmare at this point.

    I appreciate that they sent out a survey at least for the gator tags, they should have done it for fall hunts too after the current season.

    FWC is a state department, and I don't appreciate the constant carrot on the stick that's waived around here by a moderator saying "don't complain, or you'll get nothing."

    Can you please explain to me where FWC is required to get public input on every issue before making a decision or changing some policy or procedure? Look, I understand they are a government agency and as such, civil servants of sorts. But even as a government agency, they are under no obligation to collect input before carrying Out the duties outlined in the FL constitution. Staff and the agency only have to answer to the commissioners and the commissioners are beholden to no one but the governor who appointed them. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but too many here act as though these agencies are obligated to ask out permission before doing anything. And the fact is they are not required to get any input of thy don't want to because their duties are enumerated in the star Constitution and in Florida Administrative Code.

    You mention a records request... Exactly what do you think requesting records will uncover or bring to light? You speak as if something nefarious is in play here. By all means, request records and let us know what you find. If there is anything more than a hunch of hunters complaining that they couldn't get in to the system or guys begging to keep FCFS I would be totally surprised.

    Last, what difference does it make if I'm a mod or not? I'm not dangling a carrot, just telling you what is reality. You can accept it or ignore it. Your choice. But mod or not I would still tell you the same thing. Government will always seek a solution to a problem that is the path of least effort and applies uniformity to the larger group of issues and people. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • huntmstrhuntmstr Posts: 6,290 Admiral
    Sorry guys, no idea how it got locked. Must have done it accidentally when using my phone this morning.
    Bushnell, Primos and Final Approach Pro Staff. Proud member of the Fab Five, Big Leaugers and Bobble Head 4.

    I had you pissed off at hello.
  • duckmanJRduckmanJR Posts: 20,632 AG
    huntmstr wrote: »
    Government will always seek a solution to a problem that is the path of least effort and applies uniformity to the larger group of issues and people. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less true.

    Chuck, No more true words have ever been spoken....and i'm glad you said it.... because if some people say it... it just turns ugly.

    It does not take a Mensa member to know this...yet it seems lost in all the " I want my FCFS back" tantrums.
    There are many roads to travel
    Many things to do.
    Knots to be unraveled
    'fore the darkness falls on you
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