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Is there any reason (your CREDENTIALS) why we should believe you?
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
Many things to do.
Knots to be unraveled
'fore the darkness falls on you
abacofever's credentials aren't important here whether he is heavily credentialed or not due to FWC's panther update for their last meeting (Ft Myers) which stated FWC as well as others didn't think the 3-240 panther restoration goal is realistic - in fact later in the update around pg 41 the referred to it as "Unrealistic" containing. Guaranteed something is in the works to change panther philosophies and USFWS is in on it also. I can't believe this but I have to commend FWC for also understanding as abacofever does that the 3 - 240 goal is moronic.
Pasted below is from FWC meeting agenda item 12 C page 21: http://myfwc.com/media/2813884/12c-panther-update.pdf
I couldn't control the format shift - sorry about that.
The
plan
also
provides
a
measure that
specifies multiple populations
of
at least 240 panthers each is needed.
Many
individuals including
FWC
staff question if this goal
is
attainable given potential
social
carrying
capacity,
the
amount of available habitat,
and
the panther’s large
home
range size.
Therefore, the new Panther Recovery Implementation Team
will
be
working with other experts to address if the recovery criteria are the best measure of
success.
Is there one shred of data showing any of the tagged cats traveling to Ga and not by truck. In order for it to work as envisioned, cats from all 3 separate populations must interbreed on a somewhat regular basis. Otherwise we are right back to square one. A slow downward spiral into cats with genetic issues. This idea is folly. IMO... You will never keep a separate population in South Florida diverse enough without trucking cats from elsewhere. The Geography and population demographics are not in the cats favor. look how much trouble it has stirred up just to this point. Double or triple the numbers and little kids will be on the menu.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MCYmTt4ZQo
To reiterate and return to the topic - All Environmental Service providers deserve payment - All or None so as to be equitable.
Newton this is one of the smartest statements I have seen on the panther topic anywhere and u made it {The panther needs to be "present and rare".} Achieving that goal would satisfy anyone with a rational brain but enviros are a different story relative to being rational.
Think about it, some of the best ideas ever were so simple everyone missed them as they overcomplicated an issue. Of course their is one filthy fly in the ointment of simplicity with the acronym ESA.
That would make a perfect new restoration goal revision of the new panther committee recently discussed around S Fla.
FEAR AND THE FACTS
By Karen Howard
We know that reintroduction is necessary for the eventual de-listing and survival of the Florida panther. We also know that the largest obstacle in our path to reintroduction is Fear. I have read many times over that social and political issues need addressing if we are to move forward. Steve Williams and I continued to do just this by taking part in a workgroup on Florida panther reintroduction sponsored by the Florida Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission (GFC). At the March 26, 1998 Issues and Options Workshop held in Lake City, FL, by the Florida Conflict Resolution Consortium, community concerns and ideas were recorded and a committee was formed to review them. A final report on the workgroup results will go to the GFC for use in determining their position on Florida panther reintroduction.
I remember walking into the library for the first meeting on April 22nd armed with a canvas bag full of scientific reports, educational studies, and opinion surveys. I was nervous about what I might have to face in what I knew were very angry people. They experienced problems first hand with the GFC and with captive-bred research animals during the '93-'95 feasibility study. So there we sat facing each other, twelve people, two representing each group of interested parties: Hunters, Property Owners, Residents, Environmental Groups, Outdoor Recreation, and Government Agencies. Introductions began but were interrupted when one resident turned in her petition against release, signed by 55 of her neighbors, 54 opposed, adding that if panthers were released they would not survive, they guaranteed it. With formalities finished, the meeting began. "Let's get this rat killing over with," grinned one resident. The tone was set for what would be three difficult meetings over the course of April, May, and June 1998. We were faced with four alternative scenarios:
A) No reintroduction,
C) Reintroduction in a target area, and
D) Dispersed Reintroduction.
Our goal was to discuss, evaluate, and reach a consensus on these. I could easily see problems with the first two scenarios, knowing that three sustainable populations of approx. 50 animals each are needed for de-listing. No fenced area would be large enough to hold that many effectively. In addition, fenced areas would prevent them from naturally breeding between groups without repeated translocation. I wondered if we would get through the process at all. By the end of the first meeting, a consensus scale was used to determine where we stood, something I think we all knew from the start, on reintroduction: 7 against, 2 neutral, and 3 for.
At the second meeting, May 20th, many fears became evident as we began to discuss the impacts of the four scenarios on issues of property rights, livestock and pets, public safety, hunting, recreation and wildlife management, panther health and survival. There was a large concern for property rights. The GFC has assured us that land options will be safeguarded. Residents then argued that the Florida panther is not the Florida panther any more because of the genetic restoration program using Texas cougars. When a GFC representative gave us an abbreviated answer on the genetic facts a resident quickly diverted the question to another topic. Hunters felt that panthers would eat all of their deer. Property Owners and Residents claimed that they hunt solely for the thrill, killing numerous cattle or deer in one hunt. The facts are that deer are public property and panthers eat only one prey every seven to ten days.
During the last meeting on June 3, several participants repeatedly stated that the '92-'95 feasibility study was all lies based on who had written the report. Those same people later referred to the same study saying, "look at the charts, you can see where the cats were" in defense of different release areas and cougar use of land. During the ending remarks, the GFC representative present that evening offered a movement forward in communication and trust between themselves and local residents. Her olive branch apology for past misunderstandings was quickly rejected.
Through all of the meetings, I stuck to the facts in an effort to get them on record. Several panel members were against reintroduction no matter how a plan might work. We agreed to disagree when we could not get a consensus on the impacts of the alternative scenarios. I often asked myself why such a small representative group of disgruntled neighbors would have such a hand in deciding the Florida panther's fate.
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A male panther dispersed to GA a few years ago, he was killed by a hunter at West Point WMA. They thought he was an escaped pet because he was so healthy, but dna test showed he came from SWFLA so the hunter was prosecuted. The genetic flow will happen by dispersing young males. If a population was established in the Suwanee river basin and the Okefenokee, it would not be long before there was some genetic flow due to young males. Not far from there you have large river basins that act as pathways for dispersal to central GA that is largely timber land, we have a healthy, huntable and hunted, bear population there, if they can survive I imagine panthers could. It is going to happen regardless of how much opposition there is, why not get on the winning side? If hunters and wildlife managers fight it tooth and nail, we will not have a place at the table. The tree huggers will have a larger say, I for one am a GA hunter, who is semi-active in attempting to get a population in GA. The same can be said for a number of hunters I know. Just the impact they would have on our number one deer predator (eastern coyotes, which by the way are a genetic soup of wolf and coyote dna) would make it worth while, even if they prey upon deer.
If I were a south FLA outdoors man, I would be screaming from the highest tree to get more populations established.....they will not get delisted until that happens. Alligators were listed in my life time, now you can hunt them across the south. Bears were rare in GA when I was a kid and they would put you under the jail if you shot one, now we have three huntable populations and they are expanding. It appears yall are fighting the very thing that would get them delisted. When that happens, land use restrictions will lessen......history shows this, at least in GA, it should work in FLA if you get on board.
Yall are just now getting the eastern coyote in panther country, if you think the cats have an impact on deer, wait until you see what these dogs do. The southwest counties with cats seem to be the only counties in FLA that are not getting over run with the yotes, there might be some benefit to having the cats, they will not hit the deer as hard as yotes do. In areas of GA, we are loosing over 75% of our fawn crop to them, and untold numbers of adult deer. It is the fawn mortality that causes the most problem though. If the cats kill yotes, bring the cats on please......
For whatever rea$ons Florida chooses to ignore the predator impending head on collision.
Management must take into account the carrying capacity available. Not the shotgun approach of flinging crap at the wall to see what sticks. A plan that calls for an over population in order to force a few of the cats to be on the move when the managers and biologist know d.. Well the carrying capacity isn't half that number.
A management plan that favors one species over all others places all of them in peril.
Someone in the know or that has the data handy.
What is the Cat Carry capacity from SR70 South. Male and Female.
If I remember male cats are in the 100 Sq/mile range and Females ?
I'm sure this is a rather difficult question. While there is a fair amount of land. Most of it is great for Cows not so great for Cats....except the ones eating cows.
Off topic but what the hay.
If the ratio of enviro-nuts and their following sheep to reasonable folks in GA were 10:1000 the ratio in Fla would be 7-800:1000 or at least that's the way it seems. Now, that ain't scientific but just trying to make the point.
It would be nice to feel confident enough as you do redneck billcollector to scream from a tree for more panthers but with an "unrealistic" restoration goal ,the politics of Fla and lack of other than lip service to public safety.
Predators - Fla may allow Alligator and some not much predator hunting but due to the Feds control over 3,000,000,000 acres of South Fla there are no Alligator or Python hunting in those areas but to be honest I don't think many folks would spend the money to do it anyway since traditionally edible game (e.g. deer, hog, turkey, birds, ducks) is what most hunters are after IMHO. I mean 2,000,000 acres Eglds Park has ZERO ORV access or hunting anywhere and Big Cypress only has non-functional (5 miles between ORV trails) designated trail ORV access and limited seasonal hunting with yotes and pythons only predator legal to kill during season. The predator issues are quite subtle and complex down here - I mean a large part of the reason Gators and Bobcats can't be hunted in Big C is due to their similarity to Crocodiles and Panthers respectively due to Federal species status.
At least in South Florida (South of Lake Okeechobee) all I can say is that each year the sportsmen's situation gets worse not better no matter what is attempted to rectify it.
I will admit FWC now at long last know they have been managing things badly (as per them "the North American Restoration Model") as far as panther and bears go but to correct that they will have to un-BS the bunny hugging population of Florida that they have BS'd into their current way of thinking related to hunting/population control of dangerous carnivores. That mighty task may take many years as the public safety dangers continue to increase thru the same years.
Bottom Line: Florida will not be a pro hunt state like Ga in the foreseeable future. Wish I was wrong but don't think so.
What have THEY done to restore the deer population in Big Cyp= nothing,nor will they because THEY will sacrifice S Fl, to give a reason why they need to relocate the cats. That's the big picture.
Most here already know that you purposely misrepresent things, but for those who might not be aware of that, the above info is inaccurate in several ways. Considering the source, its just par for the course.
The miss management of Big Cypress is outside the FWC's responsibility.....the Feds trump all the management actions. The FWC can only work with what they are given as parameters when Federal Land is involved and the constrictions of the Park Service are not helpful.
http://myfwc.com/media/2822955/SEDeerStudyGroup.pdf
The miss management of Big Cypress is outside the FWC's responsibility.....the Feds trump all the management actions. The FWC can only work with what they are given as parameters when Federal Land is involved and the constrictions of the Park Service are not helpful.
Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?164057-More-good-news-for-big-ranches/page8#ixzz39Xiy7JSE
And, regarding coyotes.....several presentations on how coyotes are "managed" in other states as they spread and have become a dominate predator have been made to DMTAG over the years. Unfortunately, every one of them ended with......"there is not really anything that can be done".....Sadly, the coyote population simply fluctuates with the pressure and abundance of food....kill a lot of them and they breed like rabbits and come back up to the carrying capacity...food...of the area. They are a problem that is not going away. The stomach contents studies show they eat what is the easiest and most prevalent prey....and during spring that can often be fawns.
Florida is no different than any other state regarding coyotes....S. FL has the addition of panthers and snakes....I am sure the FWC would welcome ideas on how to reduce predation....
Which one was it?
THE LACK OF DEER IS NOT FROM PYTHONS ITS FROM PANTHERS . If the snake gets big enough to eat a deer it might eat one a year panthers going to eat a couple a week. Sorry but there is not that many big snakes out there .
btw where's dogs rebuttal?
The Glades are possibly the most perfect habitat Pythons/constrictors have ever been dropped off in. in.