An opinion on spaying and neutering dogs.

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Replies

  • SonOfAGunninSonOfAGunnin Posts: 5,085 Admiral
    On occasion.

    But not really.

    Takes too much time to get good at it.

    I might play once or twice a year.


    Do you bobsled?

    Thanks for the invite, but there's something about donning a set of tights and having to cuddle up with you in a small closed sled that's a bit off putting. No offense. If you're ever interested in swinging the sticks though, lemme know.
  • PopeyePopeye Posts: 14,296 AG
    Thanks for the invite, but there's something about donning a set of tights and having to cuddle up with you in a small closed sled that's a bit off putting. No offense. If you're ever interested in swinging the sticks though, lemme know.

    I,,,,...............this,........... a date?
    When I was younger, I could remember anything...

    whether it had happened or not.

    Mark Twain
  • SonOfAGunninSonOfAGunnin Posts: 5,085 Admiral
    Popeye wrote: »
    I,,,,...............this,........... a date?

    You're invited too.
  • pottydocpottydoc The thriving metropolis of Umatilla Posts: 3,173 Captain
    Where in JB's OP did he say that only "responsible" owners shouldn't get their pets s/n? He says we shouldn't listen to the Bob Barkers of the world. No where in his OP did he say that selected people shouldn't.

    He posted a thread that basically says that people shouldn't s/n their dogs.

    The average person is not a responsible pet owner evidenced by the number of dgos killed daily and in shelters around the world..


    So show me where he said only responsible pet owners should not s/n their dogs.

    You call me an idiot, and then you pretty much repeat my post in yours? I never said that JB's post was about responsible pet owners, I said it wasn't. Try reading my post that you quoted again. Read it reeeeeal slow this time, so you don't miss anything. You and pup brought the number of shelter dogs into Johnnys post which was entirely about the health benefits of not s/n dogs.
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    So you think if people listened to JB and didn't S/N their dogs there wouldn't be more shelter/killed dogs?
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • PopeyePopeye Posts: 14,296 AG
    You're invited too.

    All three of us swingin meat clubs? yuk!:puke
    When I was younger, I could remember anything...

    whether it had happened or not.

    Mark Twain
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    So you think if people listened to JB and didn't S/N their dogs there wouldn't be more shelter/killed dogs?
    But if you paid attention to what JB wrote, he never told anyone to or not to alter their dogs.

    Reference posts 41 through 47 And when specifically asked on more than one post on this thread He told the asking member it was their decision.

    The original post is some person's blog. The Bob Barker comment is his and his alone.

    The only thing I have contended is that altering a dog increases the chances of serious health issues.

    I then posted studies, journal articles, etc from very credible sources to support that...

    I read that you have always altered your dogs and never had any issues. A few dogs, even 20 dogs is anecedotal.

    Fact is... Chances of serious cancers, significant chronic health issues, behavioral issues increase when you alter dogs. That is not something I came up with... I posted plenty of references. Credible ones...

    And instead of engaging in intelligent conversation on this very complex matter. But You and pup start the attacks and name calling.
    Fibber then joined in with his made up numbers from the most notorious Animal Rights Group in the country. Neither of you brought anything to the discussion.

    The fact is since the strong spay/neuter mantra started over 40 years ago, there have been many cultural changes among dog owners in this country.

    Dogs have moved from largely being yard pets to largely being house pets.

    Leash and containment laws went into place.

    There has been a shift towards suburbia which is less tolerant of roaming dogs.

    liability of a loose dog has become a huge issues.

    Did the spay/neuter campaign play some small role in controlling the numbers of unwanted pets? I would like to hope it did. But we have no proof...

    In the end.... Liability is going to put a huge damper on spay and neuter. It IS coming and probably sooner than later. Think about it. Spay and neuter are one of the most common surgical procedures Vets perform. And therefore the largest exposure for their liability coverage. And with this hard data coming out on the connection between speuter and illness out with more coming out all the time. What happens when Sally Homemakers Lab Bucky comes down with Osteo Sarcoma at 5. And then the Vet Onocologist says yes its common in young altered dogs.... Next thing you know, Morgan and Morgan are involved. Its coming.... It is not far fetched... The concern is already there. So when the price of altering your dog skyrockets and it will, because of liability. And owners have to sign multi page releases detailing the nasty side of speuter, the practice is going to fall from favor...

    Which is why an intelligent conversation would have been nice...... Because nothing lasts for ever and it is time to discuss life beyond the spay neuter mantra....
  • KaChingKaChing Posts: 99 Greenhorn
    John, when do you expect your books to be published?
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    KaChing wrote: »
    John, when do you expect your books to be published?
    I had dinner with a publisher of dog related material at the National Championship in December. I had sent them 4 chapters and showed them two more in Orlando. They have sent me a contract to publish one book with an option on the second. But I do not like the terms. My attorney does not either. He sent them revisions and they have not responded. I am thinking they may not...
    Does not matter to me. I am prepared to self publish and get someone to assist with distribution. I retain better control of my intellectual property that way.


    But at this point... they are not my primary focus. I had planned on this year. But my spring may be difficult. So probably 2015.
  • pupraiserpupraiser Posts: 10,261 AG
    pottydoc wrote: »
    I got no dog in this fight (I don't own a dog or cat), but it's funny reading pup and joey running off at the mouth, and not posting ANY links to ANY evidence to disprove the ones Johnny put up. And, both of them spouting about how many unwanted dogs there are, and also talking about responsible owners getting their dogs fixed. Umm....it's not the responsible owners that are the issue guys, it's the ones who aren't responsible. They are already not getting their dogs spayed or neutered. Come up with some evidence counter the studies JB posted, or you're just pizzing in the wind.

    I don't evidence to prove that something doesn't happen.

    I'm tired of reading all this and will just say the JB is doing a disservice to the pet community. I can't make someone become rational or have common sense with my posts.

    The minute the guide dog school, via genetic research, determines a dog is not suitable to breed, the ENTIRE litter is spayed or neutered.
  • pupraiserpupraiser Posts: 10,261 AG
    But if you paid attention to what JB wrote, he never told anyone to or not to alter their dogs.

    Reference posts 41 through 47 And when specifically asked on more than one post on this thread He told the asking member it was their decision.

    The original post is some person's blog. The Bob Barker comment is his and his alone.

    The only thing I have contended is that altering a dog increases the chances of serious health issues.

    I then posted studies, journal articles, etc from very credible sources to support that...

    I read that you have always altered your dogs and never had any issues. A few dogs, even 20 dogs is anecedotal.

    Fact is... Chances of serious cancers, significant chronic health issues, behavioral issues increase when you alter dogs. That is not something I came up with... I posted plenty of references. Credible ones...

    And instead of engaging in intelligent conversation on this very complex matter. But You and pup start the attacks and name calling.
    Fibber then joined in with his made up numbers from the most notorious Animal Rights Group in the country. Neither of you brought anything to the discussion.

    The fact is since the strong spay/neuter mantra started over 40 years ago, there have been many cultural changes among dog owners in this country.

    Dogs have moved from largely being yard pets to largely being house pets.

    Leash and containment laws went into place.

    There has been a shift towards suburbia which is less tolerant of roaming dogs.

    liability of a loose dog has become a huge issues.

    Did the spay/neuter campaign play some small role in controlling the numbers of unwanted pets? I would like to hope it did. But we have no proof...

    In the end.... Liability is going to put a huge damper on spay and neuter. It IS coming and probably sooner than later. Think about it. Spay and neuter are one of the most common surgical procedures Vets perform. And therefore the largest exposure for their liability coverage. And with this hard data coming out on the connection between speuter and illness out with more coming out all the time. What happens when Sally Homemakers Lab Bucky comes down with Osteo Sarcoma at 5. And then the Vet Onocologist says yes its common in young altered dogs.... Next thing you know, Morgan and Morgan are involved. Its coming.... It is not far fetched... The concern is already there. So when the price of altering your dog skyrockets and it will, because of liability. And owners have to sign multi page releases detailing the nasty side of speuter, the practice is going to fall from favor...

    Which is why an intelligent conversation would have been nice...... Because nothing lasts for ever and it is time to discuss life beyond the spay neuter mantra....

    Ok...You have mental issues. Good lord. As a steward of pet ownership you need to filter what you say. But you cannot and that is why you need to be countered. If you write a book...I'm hoping it will be categorized as fiction.
  • SonOfAGunninSonOfAGunnin Posts: 5,085 Admiral
    If I were a dog, I would not want my owners to neuter me.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    pupraiser wrote: »
    Ok...You have mental issues. Good lord. As a steward of pet ownership you need to filter what you say. But you cannot and that is why you need to be countered. If you write a book...I'm hoping it will be categorized as fiction.

    We all have our opinions.... But truth should never be filtered.....

    Several books.... At one time I had thought about you as someone to write the forward for the inside cover on one of them.
    I have since come to my senses...

    You still provide no data...and only insult.....
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    pupraiser wrote: »
    The minute the guide dog school, via genetic research, determines a dog is not suitable to breed, the ENTIRE litter is spayed or neutered.


    You cannot test for everything while the puppies are young. By the time you determine a puppy is not suitable for breeding, two yeas have gone by and the litter is all spread out.

    And I really do not think that is what the guide dog school does anyway. I will find out though.

    Speaking of that... You make some very strong statements and opinions on certain dog matters. Last night I asked you a question. IF SE Guide Dogs shares your position on the co ownership thing. You have yet to respond....
  • pupraiserpupraiser Posts: 10,261 AG
    We all have our opinions.... But truth should never be filtered.....

    Several books.... At one time I had thought about you as someone to write the forward for the inside cover on one of them.
    I have since come to my senses...

    You still provide no data...and only insult.....

    The truth is we have too many unwanted dogs.

    Why do you want them to live longer? Not that it is a bad thing but I think it is for YOU rather than the dog. I could have kept my dogs alive for a long time with $$. But does that make it right?

    The cons to you 'opinion' outweigh the pros. But you don't see that. I don't know why. I love dogs I'd love to see them live as long as I do. Ok, so don't spay or neuter your dog and they live a couple years longer but still die of cancer. How many other puppies have been born because of this who suffer?

    I don't have a great solution to the pet over population but, you, in the pet ownership world should give guidance that is the best choice (at least for now).
  • pupraiserpupraiser Posts: 10,261 AG
    And I really do not think that is what the guide dog school does anyway. I will find out though.

    Speaking of that... You make some very strong statements and opinions on certain dog matters. Last night I asked you a question. IF SE Guide Dogs shares your position on the co ownership thing. You have yet to respond....

    Yes they do genetic research and predicting. Way more than a trailer park dog.

    I do not speak for the guide dog school.

    They no longer co-own dogs. That change happened years ago.
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    JB,

    You are back pedaling now.

    The first 5 paragraphs and your opening statement about Bob Barker are sourced no where. So I take that as your statements. You are telling people not to listen to Bob Barker and not s/n their pets.


    If that is someone else's opinion and you copy and pasted you should source it.
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    pupraiser wrote: »

    I'm tired of reading all this and will just say the JB is doing a disservice to the pet community. I can't make someone become rational or


    I really have to come back to this one. This goes under the heading of humor.... Pups did a, "I am going to take may ball and go home post" four pages ago.... But he keeps coming back... Keeps calling me names. keeps saying how bad of a person I am.... For posting the truth and data?

    He has yet to post anything to counter the data I have provided. Hence the likely reason for the name calling.


    And then he goes on and posts this.....
    As a steward of pet ownership you need to filter what you say. But you cannot and that is why you need to be countered.

    Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?143438-An-opinion-on-spaying-and-neutering-dogs/page5#ixzz2sJIrBSGz

    He called me a steward of pet ownership, and suggested I restrain myself. I do not know if I am good enough to be called a steward or not. I am an advocate of dog welfare and dog owners rights. I have spent time and money fighting on both of those fronts. I have gone to the state capital on behalf of dog owners rights, etc.


    But you know.... If you read all of Pups, posts about Southeast Guide Dogs..... Pup Raiser Day, Graduation, etc. over the years he posted many threads about SEGD. And I applaud him for it. But with his vocal nature about them, he would be at least a steward of South East Guide Dogs. More like an unofficial spokesman....

    You would think he would heed his own words....
    you need to filter what you say. But you cannot and that is why you need to be countered.

    Read more: http://forums.floridasportsman.com/showthread.php?143438-An-opinion-on-spaying-and-neutering-dogs/page5#ixzz2sJKh01Aa

    But he does not. He engages, trolls, badgers, makes statements that I should be shunned by the dog community, calls me names.... Etc.....

    Then he goes on to make some very controversial statements concerning dog ownership, makes statements concerning the breeding practices of the organization, etc.

    South East Guide Dogs has a STELLAR reputation....The support of the Lab Community, etc. The Breeder of our Lab puppy Keely, and the co breeder of Keely's mother, RAVE about the work they do. Both strongly support them, and provide genetics into SE Guide Dogs program in the form of stud dogs. In fact Keely has two first cousins that just completed training. etc... There is more..

    Pup thinks I should filter what I say..... But I am an independent entity within the dog community... If I say something that sets people off, I have only harmed myself......

    Pup on the other hand.... Has gone to GREAT lengths to associate himself with South East Guide Dogs. So I have to ask myself this... Is Pup the kind of person that SE Guide Dog wishes to be associated with? Someone that attacks a fellow member of the dog community and calls them names? Someone who makes controversial comments in a public setting?

    It just makes me wonder....
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    pupraiser wrote: »
    Yes they do genetic research and predicting.

    They no longer co-own dogs. That change happened years ago.

    But that testing cannot all be done at a young age...

    And how do you explain the fact that two first cousins (share the same grand sire) of my dog Keely just went through their program?
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    JB,

    You are back pedaling now.

    The first 5 paragraphs and your opening statement about Bob Barker are sourced no where. So I take that as your statements. You are telling people not to listen to Bob Barker and not s/n their pets.


    If that is someone else's opinion and you copy and pasted you should source it.


    No not back peddling. And the source is there.......

    Bob Barker... not my statement...
  • Triple Threat 33TTriple Threat 33T Posts: 18,669 Admin
    JB I'm changing your screen name to Niccolo Paganini.

    Here's your new Avatar.
    "Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need. Amen."
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    No not back peddling. And the source is there.......

    Bob Barker... not my statement...


    Where?

    Copy and paste the source that states the first 5 paragraphs and the Bob Barker statement.
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    Where?

    Copy and paste the source that states the first 5 paragraphs and the Bob Barker statement.


    It is post number two.... click the link.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    JB I'm changing your screen name to Niccolo Paganini.

    Here's your new Avatar.

    He seems like a cool guy
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    JB I'm changing your screen name to Niccolo Paganini.

    Here's your new Avatar.


    The shame of it is Rich.... This could have been a meaningful thread on canine health and the future of reducing the numbers of unwanted dogs in this country..... Things are not going to stay the same forever.

    But Buttons and Pups had to come at me and attack with both barrels....

    And Rich, Frankly you helped open that door by calling this a troll. It was never a troll.
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    It is post number two.... click the link.

    So you put the link in a separate post?


    Where do you stand?

    Do you think the average dog owner should S/n their dog?
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    So you put the link in a separate post?


    Where do you stand?

    Do you think the average dog owner should S/n their dog?

    You attack me for 6 pages then ask me where I stand? LOL
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    That's what I thought.


    You are a irresponsible messenger who thinks prancing around the ring with a $5,000 show dog is the norm.

    Fact is that 90% of dog owners are irresponsible and need to have their dogs S/N.
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • PopeyePopeye Posts: 14,296 AG
    prancing, that's funny
    When I was younger, I could remember anything...

    whether it had happened or not.

    Mark Twain
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,302 Admiral
    So you put the link in a separate post?


    Where do you stand?

    Do you think the average dog owner should S/n their dog?

    If you really want to know....

    I think everything that comes out of shelters should be spayed neutered.... But the caveat to that. Is nothing spayed under 18 months when the growth plates are closed. Some shelters are doing this with good result, they give a voucher for a free speuter and take a 100 dollar deposit. Compliance is high at the shelters I have looked at.

    The rescue I run speuters everything. But we used the above method on the last five young dogs we placed. But I sweetened the pot even more. I gave them a bag of food and six months of heartgard out of my own pocket.

    I believe we need to get rid to store front puppy sales. The petland, pet store puppy sales.. ..

    Dogs come from breeders, shelters, or rescues.

    I believe if someone puts the effort in to seek out a well bred dog, passes muster from a breeder, it is between them and the breeder.
    If they contract with the breeder to alter the dog they need to alter it. If not then it is up to the owner....

    Merlin is contracted to never be neutered. And there is a co owner on him. The reason being is he was a dog that breeder was going to keep for her program. But I WANTED him. He was THE one. So we came to an agreement. She stayed on as co owner while he was showing. No0w that he is done, she was to sign off on his ownership. In fact she has asked me to a couple of times. But no point. She has the right to breed to him if she chooses. With her as co owner, she can do all the paperwork. And if I die, he is willed back to her (my wife cannot handle him) so it is better to just leave her on him.

    The old ***** I have is in my name alone. She is intact I can spay her if I want but no point. At her age she is only coming into heat about once every 14 months and her last heat was not much of a heat. I think she is done.

    I co own another ***** that does not live with me. I financially invested in her and co own her. Gives me access to her genetics.

    And then we have Keely the Lab. When our other lab Buc died, I started looking around a puppy, we wanted a ***** preferably. I only contacted among the most reputable breeders. I led early with we were only looking for a pet, but had no intention of breeding. But also had no intention of spaying her. (I may but certainly not before six) I did state that I would readily sign an agreement not to breed and would be willing to include a clause that I would pay a fine if there was an oops litter. I also stated that I fully expected the pup to come on a limited registration - meaning no offspring could ever be registered.

    Of the six breeders I had it narrowed down to and sent my dog owner resume (Breeders usually have a puppy application so I do a resume with most of what they want on there) to, only one was not okay with omitting the spay clause on a pet. And that is okay. We knew where each other stood.

    We were on a list for a puppy sired by the number 5 Lab in the country, when Miss Keely popped up. She was one the breeder kept for herself but got some bad news about her husbands health. I really LIKED this line but she was not going to have another litter for some time. Based on the news about her husband she did not feel like she had the time to devote to the puppy as much as she would like. And based on our conversations this particular puppy was a good fit. So we went and had a look. She was perfect. The breeder put her on full registration and without a spay clause. I asked about the breeding clause, she stuck out her hand and said, words and a handshake mean more than paper. She had checked out my references and said she would not have called me if she had the slightest concern.


    So in short...

    Shelter dogs speutered but not before 18 months.
    Get rid of pet store puppies
    and honor whatever agreement you make with your breeder.

    And speaking of breeders. I am most likely going to breed and or go breed a couple of litters in the next few years.
    As far as I am concerned.... IF I do not trust you enough to keep your word on the pup, I am not going to sell it to you in the first place.

    The breedings we are discussing there will be no shortage of quality buyers.
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