An opinion on spaying and neutering dogs.

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Replies

  • Triple Threat 33TTriple Threat 33T Posts: 18,669 Admin
    Menzies wrote: »
    Armpits.

    Wow, two of the top 5 in one thread. Awesome.
    "Lord, hold our troops in your loving hands. Protect them as they protect us. Bless them and their families for the selfless acts they perform for us in our time of need. Amen."
  • pupraiserpupraiser Posts: 10,261 AG
    See, thats where being one of the top 5 in the history of FS comes into play, you can't prove it's a troll, that's how good he really is.



    Again, top 5. It's a tactic, he's allowing us to show all of our cards and then he'll show up later and post enough material to fill a War and Peace novel, rebutting everything we've posted. Look, there's a reason he's top 5, he's no slouch. He's borderline genius.

    You are goooooood! :hail
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 Officer
    For the sake of accuracy, he has often tried "rebutting everything".
    he'll show up later and post enough material to fill a War and Peace novel, rebutting everything we've posted.

    But has he ever posted anything that even filled a single page? Face it "a War and Peace novel" is the size of a NYC phone book.
  • MenziesMenzies Posts: 19,289 AG
    Top 5, meh. There's first and then there's the rest.

    EOM
    Maybe if we tell people that the brain is an App, they will start using it.
  • gandrfabgandrfab Posts: 20,729 AG
    Menzies wrote: »
    Top 5, meh. There's first and then there's the rest.

    EOM
    **** banned and still holds the #1 spot, so who's 2 and 3?
    :BUNNY gestapo

  • MenziesMenzies Posts: 19,289 AG
    gandrfab wrote: »
    **** banned and still holds the #1 spot, so who's 2 and 3?


    Trip would certainly be in the running himself.
    Maybe if we tell people that the brain is an App, they will start using it.
  • gandrfabgandrfab Posts: 20,729 AG
    one mystery poster left for the top 5
    :BUNNY gestapo

  • JKPJKP Posts: 2,983 Captain
    I've got some dogs that been spayed / neutered. Should I go ahead and put them down now since their quality of life has been so decimated by my actions?
  • Larry MacLarry Mac Posts: 5,465 Admiral
    I'd like to know the after effect health of men after vasectomies?
    Any correlation-- higher susceptibilities to cancers etc
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Cane Pole wrote: »
    My lil Aussie is almost 8 months old, and now I cant decide to neuter or not?


    IF you do neuter..... You want to wait until 24 months....
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Larry Mac wrote: »
    I'd like to know the after effect health of men after vasectomies?
    Any correlation-- higher susceptibilities to cancers etc


    That is different... Neutering is castration and the LOSS of testosterone....
    Vasectomies is just a snip. You still get the testosterone.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Peanut gallery aside...

    Folks should research... Aside from the Golden study....

    There are other studies as well....

    The Rottweiler study is REALLY interesting...

    If you spay or neuter a Rottie... It is about the same as saying YES I want my dog to get cancer prior to age 8.

    There is also a study in England that focuses on sporting breeds.

    Interesting stuff.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    pupraiser wrote: »
    Do you want every loose male dog in 5 miles to be at your door or trying to dig under or climb over your fence. Are you prepared to NEVER let the log out unattended whiles she's in heat? Better yet, she should always be on a leash during this time while outside. Will she wear a diaper? If not, I hope you have tile floors.

    Are you prepared for an 'oops' litter that you have to try and find homes for?


    I have two intact bit ches here... I have had three heat cycles between the two since August... No dogs showed up here....

    In fact going by 28 years to when I moved out from my folks, I have had at least 1 intact female at home for all but 4 of those years...


    Never had a problem with dogs coming around.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Actually it is.

    What we have here though is one of the FS forums top 5 trolling experts working his magic, doing what he does best.

    Keep in mind that I'm not saying that in a bad way, Johnny is a friend of mine and has been for years, hes a very nice person that would literally give you the shirt off his back and is the type of person that will go out of his way to help anyone in need whether you're a close friend or a complete stranger.

    He loves to debate and he loves to get you all worked up though and, he's done it again.


    thank you.....

    And all I want to do it make people think.....
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    And something else to think about..... Much of Europe has almost no desexing (spay and neuter) of pet dogs, and in fact, it is illegal in some countries... But they have no over population issues.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    Of course it is easy for Pups and Buttons to bash me for posting this.
    Why I do not know...

    I am neither pro nor anti spay and neuter... It is a case by case basis.

    And while some want to get over emotional about the situation..... And some like to throw logic out the window.....

    The FACT is.... Opinions are RAPIDLY reversing on the issue of spay and neuter.

    The AVMA has changed and SOFTENED their official position on spay and neuter multiple times in recent years.

    Here is their most current official position.

    The AVMA policy statement goes on to say: “… potential health problems associated with spaying and neutering have also been identified, including an increased risk of prostatic cancer in males; increased risks of bone cancer and hip dysplasia in large-breed dogs associated with sterilization before maturity; and increased incidences of obesity, diabetes, urinary tract infections, urinary incontinence, and hypothyroidism.” (Reference: AVMA.org)

    And I mentioned the Rottweiler study.... Increased risk of cancer and shortened lifespan are in order.

    http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/library/articles/rottweilerupdate0410.pdf

    And it goes beyond that....

    Blown out ACL/CCL and other ligament injuries are MUCH more common in altered dogs.

    In the fall of 2012 three forum members had dogs younger than 10 years old that had Osteo Sarcoma Cancer...Those forum members were Coldair, PointerDixie and myself. All three dogs were sporting breed(all going directly back the the now extinct St Johns Water Dog) Males that were neutered at a young age.

    The thing is.... Osteo Sarcoma is common in altered sporting dogs. About a 1 in 4 chance prior to age 10.
    And dang near unheard of in intact sporting dogs.

    A factor is... Altered dogs do not look like their intact counterparts. Altered dogs fail to develop into properly mature animals. They tend to be taller, weedy, fine boned and puppy like. Hence all the ligament injuries... Lack of development, changing angles, etc and you get injury....

    The data that is out there....is significant...

    Several studies prove significant health risks associated with sterilization, particularly when done at an early age. The most problematic is a delayed closure of the bony growth plates. This results in an abnormal, “weedy” skeletal development that increases the incidence of orthopedic problems like hip dysplasia and patellar luxation. Working and performance dogs, if neutered before maturity, risk the inability to perform the jobs they were bred for.10
    But by far the most startling news to surface this year is the result of a study that shows that keeping ovaries to the age of six years or later is associated with a greater than 30% increase of lifespan in female Rottweilers.4 Similar studies in humans reinforce this finding.7,11
    A 30% longer lifespan means that you could have many additional years with your ***** simply by delaying spay surgery until middle-age or later.
    Behavioral studies show that sterilization increases fearfulness, noise phobias and aggression. Other well-documented adverse health effects of de-sexing include increased risk of bone cancer, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and cognitive dysfunction in older pets. Sterilization confers an increased susceptibility to infectious disease, and also a higher incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines.10
    And the references..
    REFERENCES AND FURTHER READING
    1 Bovsun, Mara; "Puddle Jumping; Canine Urinary Incontinence"; AKC Gazette April 2009 barkingbulletin.com/newsletter/2009/q4/Puddle-Jumping--Canine-Urinary-Incontinence/
    2 Fry, Mike, "Reflections from the No Kill Conference in Washington DC":
    animalarkshelter.org/animal/ArkArticles.nsf/AllArticles/3A078C33CD079D17862575AD00471A9B
    3 James, Susan Donaldson (ABC News) "300,000 Imported Puppies Prompt Rabies Concerns" October 24, 2007 petpac.net/news/headlines/importedpuppies/
    4 Nolen, R. Scott "Rottweiler Study Links Ovaries With Exceptional Longevity" JAVMA March 2010 avma.org/onlnews/javma/mar10/100301g.asp
    5 Sanborn, Laura J., MS "Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs"; May 14, 2007 naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf
    6 Thoms, Joy "The Importance of Spay-Neuter Contracts" The Orient Express, Nov, 2009
    7 Waters, David J., DVM, PhD, Diplomate ACVS "A Healthier Respect for Ovaries" gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html
    8 Winograd, Nathan J. "Debunking Pet Overpopulation" June 29, 2009 nathanwinograd.com/?p=1390
    9 Winograd, Nathan, “Redemption: The Myth of Pet Overpopulation and the No Kill Revolution in America” Almaden Books, 2nd edition, Feb 25, 2009.
    10 Zink, Christine, DVM, PhD, DACVP "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete"; 2005 www.thedogplace.org/SPAY&NEUTER/considerations-canine-athelete_zink.asp
    11 “Retaining ovaries may be a key to prolonged life in women and dogs”; DVM Newsmagazine; Dec 5, 2009. veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/646838



    So call this a troll if you like....

    And I am not telling people to spay or not spay - neuter or not neuter.....

    I just want people to think about what and why they are doing something before they do it....

    Those not connected with the dog community on a daily basis may not hear the silencing of the spay/neuter mantra...

    That mantra was very loud for many years..... I have shouted it myself...
    But opinions.... Among Vets - Breeders - and even among shelters are changing at a fairly rapid basis...
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    As much as some would have us believe that it is a given that an intact ***** will get pregnant....

    Let us look at facts a minute....

    Lets say a ***** lives to be 11 years old.....She lives her entire life intact.... That is 4015 days of life...

    IF she comes into heat the first time at 8 months....

    She will have about 85 days in her ENTIRE that she could possibly get pregnant.
    Give or take 5 days or so...

    That equals 2 percent of her life in which a ***** can become pregnant. And to do that she has to be around an intact male and they have to breed.

    So if someone tells me they cannot manage an intact *****, they are telling me that they cannot manage the dog for 2 percent of her life.
    It is TWO PERCENT of their lives...
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    And yet another study just out... On Vislas....

    Significantly higher chances of cancer and behavioral issues on altered dogs versus intact dogs.
    http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/vizsla_javma_study.pdf
  • team getterdunteam getterdun Posts: 1,741 Captain
    Can they give the males a vasectomy rather than castrating them?

    And do birth control pills or shots work on the females?
    "Fundamentals are nothing but a crutch for the talentless" - Kenny Powers
  • WaterEngineerWaterEngineer Posts: 24,415 AG
    If you want the critter to stay home, cut the nuts. That is the bottomline. Why complicate this?
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    The OP is garbage.

    Spay and neuter your dogs.

    They will live long, healthy, happy lives and there will be far less shelter dogs in this world.
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • pupraiserpupraiser Posts: 10,261 AG
    The OP is garbage.

    Spay and neuter your dogs.

    They will live long, healthy, happy lives and there will be far less shelter dogs in this world.

    x2

    I suppose the good thing is that with every post, he loses what little credibility is left.
  • restlessnativerestlessnative Posts: 2,124 Captain
    My dog is spayed. So far so good but she is only 5. Stay tuned, if anything happens I will be sure to let you know.
  • JohnnyBanditJohnnyBandit Posts: 8,305 Admiral
    pupraiser wrote: »
    x2

    I suppose the good thing is that with every post, he loses what little credibility is left.
    The humor in all of this is that I post what I think without concern over being credited or dis credited.
    The fact remains. I posted a position and data from the American veterinary medical assoc. data from tenured vets, Purdue. uC Davis etc. Studies on multiple breeds etc.




    Yet you can do is attck me, the messenger. You provide no data to counter. Just you own opinion and position on the matter. If my personal reputation suffers because of this thread. So be it. It is ironic that you seem to seek enjoyment at the prospect of my upcoming lack of credibility.


    If that is the case I wish you well in this. But the fact remains. While I have posted positions and data from reputable sources. Your only apostasy Ttack me. The messenger
  • MenziesMenzies Posts: 19,289 AG
    Much of Europe has almost no desexing (spay and neuter) of pet dogs, and in fact, it is illegal in some countries... But they have no over population issues.

    They don't cut little boys after birth either.

    You should tackle that issue next.
    Maybe if we tell people that the brain is an App, they will start using it.
  • Hickory DogHickory Dog Posts: 5,047 Officer
    pupraiser wrote: »
    x2

    I suppose the good thing is that with every post, he loses what little credibility is left.
    yeah quoting the AVMA revising their stance on the issue really undermined his argument. Heaven forbid we have a discussion about the issue.
  • GardawgGardawg Posts: 8,463 Admiral
    My father didn't castrate the male calves because he said it weakened their immune system ...

    he used a device to perform a type of vasectomy on them ... no cutting was involved

    the technique only worked about 90% of the time ... close enough to make it worthwhile

    he always cross bred his bulls and cows ... we spent very little on vet bills so his methods did work ..
    “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

    Heres Tom with the Weather.”
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    AVMA has a pony in this show and if you don't see it your stupid.
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
  • Hickory DogHickory Dog Posts: 5,047 Officer
    AVMA has a pony in this show and if you don't see it your stupid.

    *you're
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    Good catch.
    FSU is the best football team of all time!
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