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Penn Senator 4/0 or Daiwa Sealine 400H?

Is it true that the new Penn Senators are not what they used to be? I'm going to be getting a few of these reels soon and would like them to last me a long time. I've always liked Penn fine, but do not spend time offshore like I do inshore. Just wondering if this is simply one person's opinion (guy at the tackle shop) or if I should steer toward Daiwa. Thank you!
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Replies

  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    The new Senators are 'Made in China' (unlike the older Senators that were 'Made in USA'). IMO the Daiwa Sealine 400H was a superior reel to the older (USA made) Senators, but is FAR Superior to the new Senators... The only 'glitch' is that I was told that Daiwa has D/C'd the classic Sealine series ???
    But to answer your question- I would rather have 1) Daiwa Sealine 400H than 5) new Chinese Senator 113H reels...
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • Jack HexterJack Hexter New Port RicheyPosts: 5,012 Moderator
    I too have heard that the Senators have gone downhill since the move to China, but have no personal experience with this problem as I only own the older ones and rarely use them anymore. I do own a couple Daiwa 400's and a 450 and like these reels more than even the older Penn's. If you take a look at the gears and drags, the Daiwa reels have larger components than the equivalent size Penn's. Given a choice, get the Daiwa

    And reel Stamas, I don't know who told you that the Sealines have been discontinued, but that's not true.
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Had not even looked at them for several years, but Penn Senator STILL has plastic side plates screwed to a graphite, read that plastic, subframe.

    http://www.pennreels.com/products/reels/conventional-reels/star-drag-reels/special-senator

    Daiwa Sealine H reels always had aluminum alloy side plates & one piece aluminum alloy full cage frame, w/heavy duty SS foot.

    Since the day Daiwa introduced their Sealine H reels they were stronger/better than Penn Senators & usually significantly less expensive.

    Still a good number of NOS Daiwa Sealine H reels for sale, plenty of excellent condition used & loads of parts.

    Penn Senators old & new are still decent reels to fish, but I'd only own the antique Senators.
  • HooganHoogan Posts: 547 Officer
    Like everyone said above... The Daiwa Sealine is a far superior piece even when compared to the old USA made senator, you do a side to side comparison of both either assembled or apart and the engineering and materials stand out on the Sealine. The only and SIGNIFICANT Achilles heel to the Sealine is the ****ty drag washer material which can be easily fixed by installing Senator carbon fiber drag washers ( well worth the effort and small expense. Go on eBay and buy several Sealines for cheap price. Hands down superior reels.
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 3,976 Captain
    As folks have noted the Sealines run rings around the Senators... While Daiwa was busy innovating Penn kept making their solid reels that were state of the art in the 1950's.. They did upgrade them finally after years and years but it was too little and far too late. That's how Newell got its start, making upgrade kits for Penn reels so that they would stand up to what the long range boats out of California were doing with them (but that's another story....).
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Senators "were state of the art in the" 1930's - "finally after years and years" Penn got "busy innovating" & introduced the plastic subframe Senators. IMO the new design was not an "upgrade".
    lemaymiami wrote: »
    As folks have noted the Sealines run rings around the Senators... While Daiwa was busy innovating Penn kept making their solid reels that were state of the art in the 1950's.. They did upgrade them finally after years and years but it was too little and far too late.

    Switched to Sealine H reels back in the early 80's & never had any issues w/Daiwa drag washers. The Sealines actually had substantially better drags than the 60's-70's era Senators they replaced.

    Converting Sealine to carbon fiber drag isn't always as great as it is commonly portrayed. The original drag washers are high grade brake friction material, NOT "particle board" as some selling carbon fiber conversions claim. Carbon washers can marginally increase maximum drag resistance, but fishing done at intermediate drag settings tends to overlap.

    Having owned & fished many stock Sealines I was eager to try carbon drags, but was never impressed by any significant difference. However most of my conventional reel fishing is Bottom Bumping, where the convention was Hammered Down Drag, the better to wrench stubborn Grouper away from Rocking You Up. Also cranked up my share of Amberjack, Snappers, Cobia, Slammer Blues, Cod, Pollock, Stripers, Sharks, huge Rays. Usually Flat Line with spinning gear & don't really like to troll.

    Those who regularly troll for striking fish will enjoy carbon fiber drags.
  • SpineymanSpineyman Destin, FlPosts: 8,347 Admiral
    Sea Line by a million miles. By far hands down better reel. And Grouper killing machine I might add.
    Kayak Rookie...and loving it.
    Fishing beautiful Destin / Ft Walton Beach area!

    II Chronicles 7:14
    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • johnDjohnD WC FLPosts: 6,419 Admiral
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    By far the best 4/0 Senator Penn has ever built is in the current catalogue; called the "Baja Special 113HN", and is a completely different animal than the "regular" 113H Senator.
    Compared to a 113H, the Baja Special has upgraded drag, upgraded gears, upgraded handle, upgraded frame, more ball-bearings [6 vs. 2], better casting/freespool, upgraded eccentric, upgraded freespool lever, Double-Dog anti-reverse, reversible harness lugs, and even the ergonomic choice of orienting the gear box "forward" or "rearward", as you see fit, and it is also "Made in USA".
    It is also probably the most "bomb-proof" conventional reel on the market.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Of course you can buy 2 Daiwa Sealine 400H reels for the price of 1 Penn Baja Special.

    Baja Special is also a narrow, high speed, 4/0 that's designed for 30-60 lb line. Penn stopped making them, then made another run, capitalizing on "Made in USA". Nice reel to be sure, but IMO not worth $250 for a reel with plastic side plates.

    The metal Sealine 400H is a higher capacity reel better suited to bottom fishing. More & heavier line & more grunt for coaxing the Grouper or AJ that ate their Wheaties.
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Of course you can buy 2 Daiwa Sealine 400H reels for the price of 1 Penn Baja Special.

    Baja Special is also a narrow, high speed, 4/0 that's designed for 30-60 lb line. Penn stopped making them, then made another run, capitalizing on "Made in USA". Nice reel to be sure, but IMO not worth $250 for a reel with plastic side plates.

    The metal Sealine 400H is a higher capacity reel better suited to bottom fishing. More & heavier line & more grunt for coaxing the Grouper or AJ that ate their Wheaties.




    Penn stopped making the reel briefly in 2008, then re-instated them in 2009; they did not sell well the first time around, because most folks thought they were "just" a narrowed 4/0 Senator.
    In the era of superbraid lines, the minor line capacity difference is more than made up for in easier handling and much easier manual level-winding.
    A "regular" 4/0 [any brand] holds 650 yards of 80-pound superbraid, the 113HN holds 525 of 80-pound superbraid, more than enough for the species and sizes a 4/0 is intended for.
    Certainly more expensive, and not only worth $249, it is the equal internally of many star drags costing much more, and more durable than any of them, including the metal-sideplate models.
    More drag than any other stock star drag 4/0 on the market, along with amazing cranking power; exactly what bottom fishermen want and need.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    I liked my Baha Special 113HN (for both 'jigging' & 'bottom-bumpin'), but I bought all mine 'lightly used' for ~$150-$200/ea...
    That said, a Daiwa Sealine 400H (or 450H) is one of the best 'value' reels ever made if you're looking for a 'workhorse' reel for Groupers/Muttons/AJs/etc... Even their 300H is adequate for most bottom fishing apps...
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Penn itself STILL advertises the Baja Special as "narrow" - it doesn't require a Rocket Scientist to see why. Anyone familiar with decades of traditional Senator post construction knew Baja Special wasn't even "just" a 4/0.

    IMO "they did not sell well the first time around, because most folks" knew they could buy 2 Sealine 400H reels for substantially less.
    Tunanorth wrote: »
    they did not sell well the first time around, because most folks thought they were "just" a narrowed 4/0 Senator.

    http://www.pennreels.com/products/reels/conventional-reels/star-drag-reels/baja-special

    The Penn picked review at bottom of page describes Baja Special as "very narrow".

    Many reviews comment that in normal use "More drag than any other stock star drag 4/0 on the market" is essentially a useless distinction.

    Even "In the era of superbraid lines" some reviewers still question the utility of higher gear ratio for serious bottom fishing, citing the tradition of lower gear ratio for heavier reels.

    Funny thing is "most folks thought" Baja Special wasn't going to be another plastic-sideplate reel.
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    YES, a 'workhorse reel' which is "exactly what bottom fishermen want and need" - not an overpriced race horse reel.
    That said, a Daiwa Sealine 400H (or 450H) is one of the best 'value' reels ever made if you're looking for a 'workhorse' reel for Groupers/Muttons/AJs/etc... Even their 300H is adequate for most bottom fishing apps...

    Sorry, but "their 300H is" definitely NOT "adequate for most bottom fishing apps" where I usually fish. In fact, a 400H w/60# often wasn't enough. So I bumped it up to 600H w/80# & started catching the Grouper that had broken off 50# & 60#. Once wrestled a stud to the boat that still had 5 lost hooks in its face. Wanted some big Grouper. Needed a Clydesdale to work them to the boat.

    If Sealine 400H is just "one of the best 'value' reels ever made" & lays waste to Senator 4/0, please post short list of its closest competitors.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    You seem to have an 'agenda' & as such seem to be entertaining yourself w/o need of any more of my input... Please continue to share your knowledge (unabated by me)
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Penn itself STILL advertises the Baja Special as "narrow" - it doesn't require a Rocket Scientist to see why. Anyone familiar with decades of traditional Senator post construction knew Baja Special wasn't even "just" a 4/0.

    IMO "they did not sell well the first time around, because most folks" knew they could buy 2 Sealine 400H reels for substantially less.



    http://www.pennreels.com/products/reels/conventional-reels/star-drag-reels/baja-special

    The Penn picked review at bottom of page describes Baja Special as "very narrow".

    Many reviews comment that in normal use "More drag than any other stock star drag 4/0 on the market" is essentially a useless distinction.

    Even "In the era of superbraid lines" some reviewers still question the utility of higher gear ratio for serious bottom fishing, citing the tradition of lower gear ratio for heavier reels.

    Funny thing is "most folks thought" Baja Special wasn't going to be another plastic-sideplate reel.




    Yes, the 113HN is a 4/0 narrow size, and if you are using "straight mono" in 60 or 80-pound test, a larger-capacity reel might be better for you; particularly if you are using straight 80 mono, a 6/0 sideplate diameter would be a better choice.
    With braid the distinction is not relevant.
    Over a lifetime in the retail tackle business, I'm pretty familiar with why folks do, or do not buy something.
    A handful of hardcore gear geeks [Like Alan Tani] knew how good the Baja Special was and said so, but the overwhelming majority did not even know there was a difference.
    It is true that the reel lacks "bling", and no doubt that influences purchasing decisions for some people.
    Regardless, it has now been in continuous production for almost 5 years.
    At the ICAST Show a few years ago, another reel company had a demo board display set up, showing how well their [very expensive] reel cranked up a 10-pound iron weight plate compared to the competition, including the Baja Special which was less than half the price. Within 30 minutes of the show opening, the Baja Special [including signage] was mysteriously missing.
    Plastic sideplates and all, the Baja Special is the most durable, bombproof conventional reel on the market.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Funny you mention Alan Tani, was he ever WRONG!

    "ford had the edsel. penn had the 113hn. i think the penn 113hn baja special died a quick death because no one took the time to look under the hood. pity, it was not your grandfather's 4/0 senator. it is also unlikely that this reel will ever be revived."

    http://store.scottsbt.com/Repair/Custom/Tani/113HN_rebuild.aspx

    History shows that what you claim as "the most durable, bombproof conventional reel on the market" has had a huge number of complaints about the plastic drag star shredding, foot screws loosening & handles breaking.

    While Baja Special is my favorite new Penn star drag conventional reel it's not worth anywhere near $249 to me.

    Any idea how well Penn's "revived" 704Z/706Z Spinfisher reels are selling?
  • BarnakillerBarnakiller Posts: 90 Deckhand
    Before this goes too much further, I wanted to thank you all for your replies to my post. Based on your responses, I pulled the trigger on two Sealine 400H's today. Coincidentally, my wife got me a Senator 4/0 for Christmas. I recently purchased three Dogfish Stik 15h rods for these reels and plan on spooling with 80 lb. Momoi mono. Thanks again for your replies. I had planned on having all Senators until I read your posts.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Will your wife mind if you trade the Senator for a Sealine ?
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Funny you mention Alan Tani, was he ever WRONG!

    "ford had the edsel. penn had the 113hn. i think the penn 113hn baja special died a quick death because no one took the time to look under the hood. pity, it was not your grandfather's 4/0 senator. it is also unlikely that this reel will ever be revived."

    http://store.scottsbt.com/Repair/Custom/Tani/113HN_rebuild.aspx

    History shows that what you claim as "the most durable, bombproof conventional reel on the market" has had a huge number of complaints about the plastic drag star shredding, foot screws loosening & handles breaking.

    While Baja Special is my favorite new Penn star drag conventional reel it's not worth anywhere near $249 to me.

    Any idea how well Penn's "revived" 704Z/706Z Spinfisher reels are selling?




    The plastic drag star was indeed an issue, but existed in 2004 production only, and was changed to metal in 2005.
    Pretty resourceful of you to dig up Alan's old quotes from 2008; he was of course among the many who asked for the reel to be brought back at the time.
    Foot screws loosening? Handles breaking? Not.
    Glad you added "to you"; as every angler should fish with what makes them happy.
    BTW, I was a Daiwa prostaffer in the 1970's and 80's, living close to their Southern California HQ, and was involved in the development of the Sealine series reels, they are very well-built and excellent workhorses.
    The Z spinning reel is selling extremely well in its two traditional strongholds, the NE US Atlantic seaboard, and the Florida panhandle, but it was really always a regional phenomenon.
    All reels can break and eventually die of course; the 113HN is just the last soldier to go down when the going gets tough.
    I track dozens of them belonging to crew members aboard boats in San Diego's famous long-range fleet, that fish nearly every day year round for everything from tuna to grouper, and receive virtually zero care.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • swampmonsterswampmonster Posts: 323 Deckhand
    I wish I would have known about the penn made in china crap a while back. I went to a store and told them to give me two penns and spool them up. When I got home and went to put them on my rods I saw they were not the same and was pissed. I bought them out of town so I am stuck with them. Thanks penn for ruining an American go to reel!
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    People won't pay ~$200 for a USA Made Senator & Penn can't build a ~$100 Senator in the USA... What would you have them do ???
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • P.cliffordP.clifford Posts: 226 Officer
    The 4/0 reel to get is the Penn Baja special 113hn. Made in Phili and tough as nails. It's very popular with the California long range guys. About $250 . Made in USA and solid as a rock.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    It's also EZ for "resourceful" anglers to quickly compare other reels in Penn Baja Special's price range.

    Daiwa offers an interesting variety of IMO substantially better reels around the $250 mark. And Daiwa is not alone offering more technically advanced reels in this price range.

    Did most of my Tuna fishing out of Galilee/Pt. Judith & NOBODY toyed around with NARROW 4/0 reels. This was Penn International reel big game fishing.

    My experience with "The Z spinning reel...phenomenon" goes back to the dawn of the classic 'Greenie' Spinfisher 700, with diecast handles.
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    It's also EZ for "resourceful" anglers to quickly compare other reels in Penn Baja Special's price range.

    Daiwa offers an interesting variety of IMO substantially better reels around the $250 mark. And Daiwa is not alone offering more technically advanced reels in this price range.

    Did most of my Tuna fishing out of Galilee/Pt. Judith & NOBODY toyed around with NARROW 4/0 reels. This was Penn International reel big game fishing.

    My experience with "The Z spinning reel...phenomenon" goes back to the dawn of the classic 'Greenie' Spinfisher 700, with diecast handles.




    No doubt the Internet allows anglers to compare reels 9 ways from Sunday, and of course the tackle that makes you happy is what you should use.
    True enough that narrow, regular, and wide 4/0 star drags are not big tuna reels, though the definition of "big" varies greatly.
    On a typical San Diego long-range trip, there are anywhere from 175-200 or more rod/reel combos aboard, every brand imaginable, from Wal-Mart specials to $6,000 custom-made Ken Matsuura Strong Fighters, and the winners are separated from the also-rans very quickly.
    Out on the water, when a 4/0 star drag is appropriate, the 113HN wins.
    A minor bit of history trivia, the "pangeros" at Baja's East Cape who were the main field-testers of the Sealines during their development in the late 70's and early 80's, are the exact same guys who we worked closely with on developing the 113HN in the mid-90's, and from whom the name "Baja Special" is inspired.
    Those two areas [NE and panhandle] were always the main areas where the Z and greenie spinning reels were most popular; they were never my personal cup of tea, but anglers appear to be very happy to be able to get them again.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
  • beach_tradebeach_trade Posts: 2,040 Captain
    Before this goes too much further, I wanted to thank you all for your replies to my post. Based on your responses, I pulled the trigger on two Sealine 400H's today. Coincidentally, my wife got me a Senator 4/0 for Christmas. I recently purchased three Dogfish Stik 15h rods for these reels and plan on spooling with 80 lb. Momoi mono. Thanks again for your replies. I had planned on having all Senators until I read your posts.

    Do yourself a favor now before you use those Sealines and unscrew all of the sideplate screws and grease them.

    You will thank me in the future when you service those reels. Stainless screws into an aluminum frame equals corrosion.
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,837 AG
    Just for the Halibut, took a few minutes using the resourceful internet to investigate what reels "a typical San Diego long-range" boat carries. Know that head boats usually negotiate deals with tackle makers & it's often quite competitive. Wondered if your glowing praise for Baja Special translated into Penn's narrow star drag 4/0 being popular in that niche. Only looked at 2 pages of Google hits, but did not find a single boat that rented the Baja Special. Surprisingly the 4 allied Pt. Loma long-range boats, that rent Penn reels, did not even list the Baja Special.
    Tunanorth wrote: »
    On a typical San Diego long-range trip, there are anywhere from 175-200 or more rod/reel combos aboard, every brand imaginable, from Wal-Mart specials to $6,000 custom-made Ken Matsuura Strong Fighters, and the winners are separated from the also-rans very quickly.
    Out on the water, when a 4/0 star drag is appropriate, the 113HN wins.

    If "the 113HN wins" so handily & "the winners are separated from the also-rans very quickly" on San Diego long-range boats, it does not show on their websites. Based on your comments one might have thought Baja Specials would have been in wide use by San Diego long-range boats?

    They must do things differently out on the left coast. While you "track dozens of them (Baja Specials) belonging to crew members aboard boats in San Diego's famous long-range fleet, that fish nearly every day year round" - Florida law made it illegal on for hire boats for "The captain and crew to take, attempt to take, or possess a limit of fish or organisms under the vessel license."

    Would expect Baja Specials "belonging to crew members aboard boats" for hire in Florida wouldn't see much use. Never wanted "crew members aboard boats" for hire I'm paying for, to compete elbow to elbow, for the same fish & then anticipating tips. The "crew members" can go fish on their days off.
  • reel stamasreel stamas Posts: 6,153 Admiral
    Do yourself a favor now before you use those Sealines and unscrew all of the sideplate screws and grease them.

    You will thank me in the future when you service those reels. Stainless screws into an aluminum frame equals corrosion.

    Sounds like good advice... Ever tried 'Anti-Seize' (vs reel grease) ?
    There should be NO Commercial Fishing for any fish species considered 'Over-fished' , 'Undergoing Overfishing' or Subject to Recreational Seasons, Limits, or Closures... Game Fish Status IS the Answer !!!
  • johnDjohnD WC FLPosts: 6,419 Admiral
    Sounds like good advice... Ever tried 'Anti-Seize' (vs reel grease) ?

    I have never used anti seize..but this what I use.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/CORROSION-BLOCK-MULTI-PURPOSE-HIGH-PERFORMANCE-GREASE-/120642964497?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item1c16e18c11&vxp=mtr
  • TunanorthTunanorth Posts: 125 Deckhand
    Just for the Halibut, took a few minutes using the resourceful internet to investigate what reels "a typical San Diego long-range" boat carries. Know that head boats usually negotiate deals with tackle makers & it's often quite competitive. Wondered if your glowing praise for Baja Special translated into Penn's narrow star drag 4/0 being popular in that niche. Only looked at 2 pages of Google hits, but did not find a single boat that rented the Baja Special. Surprisingly the 4 allied Pt. Loma long-range boats, that rent Penn reels, did not even list the Baja Special.



    If "the 113HN wins" so handily & "the winners are separated from the also-rans very quickly" on San Diego long-range boats, it does not show on their websites. Based on your comments one might have thought Baja Specials would have been in wide use by San Diego long-range boats?


    They must do things differently out on the left coast. While you "track dozens of them (Baja Specials) belonging to crew members aboard boats in San Diego's famous long-range fleet, that fish nearly every day year round" - Florida law made it illegal on for hire boats for "The captain and crew to take, attempt to take, or possess a limit of fish or organisms under the vessel license."

    Would expect Baja Specials "belonging to crew members aboard boats" for hire in Florida wouldn't see much use. Never wanted "crew members aboard boats" for hire I'm paying for, to compete elbow to elbow, for the same fish & then anticipating tips. The "crew members" can go fish on their days off.




    Why so bitter?
    You do however reveal some work needed on my part, and I do need to follow-up, as the Penn recommendations on some boat websites indeed still have numbers that are discontinued, and just never updated.
    In point of fact, the 113HN is by far the most-owned "newish" crew reel aboard San Diego boats, though beaten-to-hell old Senators and Newells are never discarded until they are totally unrepairable.
    Also, many of the boats are "sponsored" by one reel company or another, and the tackle aboard reflects that.
    I have been working closely with the SD fleet for over 4 decades, please don't pretend that you know anything about it.
    As for the differing laws about crew fishing; not especially relevant, but your gleeful pointing illustrates some deeper agenda.
    Over 90-percent of SD fishing is done in Mexican waters, so there's yet another set of laws, and since the boats are out for days or weeks at a time, crew has rotating time-off hours, and also "midnight deck watch" time when everyone else is asleep.
    FWIW, most of the fish hooked by crew members are "handed off", as the decks of SD boats [like almost everywhere] are filled with "Internet Anglers" who may have trouble on their own.
    Penn Pro Staffer
    "The best kind of fish in the world is the one on the end of your line"
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