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Let ObamaCare Collapse

Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 21,882 AG
Quite frankly, I am weary of trying to use logic to convince illogical, feelings oriented people who care little for the rule of law, personal liberties and private property. I believe that this guy's position has merit and I believe the repubs should embrace this notion instead of feigning one more failed vote. Take the administration to court, press for full implementation of the law NOW and press forward and allow the Liberal Utopia finally collapse under its own weight. Instead of chiseling away at the liberal dream, let it go and die finally. Let people see what really happens when you run out of other people's money.


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Daniel Henninger: Let ObamaCare Collapse
What the GOP's Defund-ObamaCare Caucus is failing to see is that ObamaCare is no longer just ObamaCare. It is about something that is beyond the reach of a congressional vote.

As its Oct. 1 implementation date arrives, ObamaCare is the biggest bet that American liberalism has made in 80 years on its foundational beliefs. This thing called "ObamaCare" carries on its back all the justifications, hopes and dreams of the entitlement state. The chance is at hand to let its political underpinnings collapse, perhaps permanently.

If ObamaCare fails, or seriously falters, the entitlement state will suffer a historic loss of credibility with the American people. It will finally be vulnerable to challenge and fundamental change. But no mere congressional vote can achieve that. Only the American people can kill ObamaCare.

No matter what Sen. Ted Cruz and his allies do, ObamaCare won't die. It would return another day in some other incarnation. The Democrats would argue, rightly, that the ideas inside ObamaCare weren't defeated. What the Democrats would lose is a vote in Congress, nothing more.

A political idea, once it becomes a national program, achieves legitimacy with the public. Over time, that legitimacy deepens. So it has been with the idea of national social insurance.

German Chancellor Otto von Bismark's creation of a social insurance system in the 19th century spread through Europe. After the devastation of World War I, few questioned its need. In the U.S., Franklin Roosevelt's Social Security system was seen as an antidote to the Depression. The public's three-decade support for the idea allowed Lyndon Johnson to pass the Medicare and Medicaid entitlements even in the absence of an economic crisis.

Going back at least to the Breaux-Thomas Medicare Commission in 1999, endless learned bodies have warned that the U.S. entitlement scheme of Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid is financially unsupportable. Of Medicare, Rep. Bill Thomas said at the time, "One of the biggest problems is that the government tries to administer 10,000 prices in 3,000 counties, and it gets it wrong most of the time." But change never comes.

ED-AR299_wl0926_G_20130925185613.jpg
The Four Horsemen of the Democratic Apocalypse.

Medicaid is the worst medicine in the United States. It grinds on. Doctors in droves are withdrawing from Medicare. No matter. It all lives on.

An established political idea is like a vampire. Facts, opinions, votes, garlic: Nothing can make it die.

But there is one thing that can kill an established political idea. It will die if the public that embraced it abandons it.

Six months ago, that didn't seem likely. Now it does.

The public's dislike of ObamaCare isn't growing with every new poll for reasons of philosophical attachment to notions of liberty and choice. Fear of ObamaCare is growing because a cascade of news suggests that ObamaCare is an impending catastrophe.

Big labor unions and smaller franchise restaurant owners want out. UPS dropped coverage for employed spouses. Corporations such as Walgreens and IBM are transferring employees or retirees into private insurance exchanges. Because of ObamaCare, the Cleveland Clinic has announced early retirements for staff and possible layoffs. The federal government this week made public its estimate of premium costs for the federal health-care exchanges. It is a morass, revealing the law's underappreciated operational complexity.

But ObamaCare's Achilles' heel is technology. The software glitches are going to drive people insane.

Creating really large software for institutions is hard. Creating big software that can communicate across unrelated institutions is unimaginably hard. ObamaCare's software has to communicate—accurately—across a mind-boggling array of institutions: HHS, the IRS, Medicare, the state-run exchanges, and a whole galaxy of private insurers' and employers' software systems.

Recalling Rep. Thomas's 1999 remark about Medicare setting prices for 3,000 counties, there is already mispricing of ObamaCare's insurance policies inside the exchanges set up in the states.

The odds of ObamaCare's eventual self-collapse look stronger every day. After that happens, then what? Try truly universal health insurance? Not bloody likely if the aghast U.S. public has any say.

Enacted with zero Republican votes, ObamaCare is the solely owned creation of the Democrats' belief in their own limitless powers to fashion goodness out of legislated entitlements. Sometimes social experiments go wrong. In the end, the only one who supported Frankenstein was Dr. Frankenstein. The Democrats in 2014 should by all means be asked relentlessly to defend their monster.

Republicans and conservatives, instead of tilting at the defunding windmill, should be working now to present the American people with the policy ideas that will emerge inevitably when ObamaCare's declines. The system of private insurance exchanges being adopted by the likes of Walgreens suggests a parallel alternative to ObamaCare may be happening already.

If Republicans feel they must "do something" now, they could get behind Sen. David Vitter's measure to force Congress to enter the burning ObamaCare castle along with the rest of the American people. Come 2017, they can repeal the ruins.

The discrediting of the entitlement state begins next Tuesday. Let it happen.
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Replies

  • skeeryskeery Posts: 89 Deckhand
    It will fall under it's own weight. I like what Ted Cruz is doing though, he is calling out the repub establishment and allowing it to show it's colors.
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 29,161 AG
    The GOP understands that once implemented it will never go away. The author is wrong.

    Of course the article might have more merit, if the GOP had offered anything as an alternative. It's either Obamacare or back to the failing health care delivery system we had.
    Vote for the other candidate
  • skeeryskeery Posts: 89 Deckhand
    We all may be dead by then.
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,301 Admiral
    Flawed premiss, Obama and the fed just keep printing money and piling up debt to cover the costs. The country would have to collapse for anyone to change their thinking.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • NACl H2O LuvrNACl H2O Luvr Posts: 12,386 AG
    cpr wrote: »
    Flawed premiss, Obama and the fed just keep printing money and piling up debt to cover the costs. The country would have to collapse for anyone to change their thinking.

    Yep.....as Detroit has clearly demonstrated, they will keep going until the entire nation is a complete and utter disaster.
  • navigator2navigator2 Posts: 22,521 AG
    Yep.....as Detroit has clearly demonstrated, they will keep going until the entire nation is a complete and utter disaster.

    Sounds familar. Ever hear of the Jacksonville Jaguars? :grin
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rickcrickc Posts: 9,172 Admiral
    GOP is changing its tune

    They won't carry the fight to the end

    So now theu are going to let ACA die on its own

    But they made their political point

    And that was all it was about anyway
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    cpr wrote: »
    Flawed premiss, Obama and the fed just keep printing money and piling up debt to cover the costs. The country would have to collapse for anyone to change their thinking.

    :rotflmao

    Mhmmm. As I said, the Iraq war could have paid for 20-60 (or more) years of Obamacare.

    It's "socialism" and "illogical" if we spend money at home to help people and "the cost of freedom" when we **** it away in a desert.

    I hope the GOP stands by and wishes it's collapse. Because if they're not at war wasting money overseas they are smug and unhappy and spiteful against 90% of the American people.

    Of course, you can also root for it's success like any rational American would do. Hmm logic? Lets see... a healthier population will increase GDP, lower welfare, and overall reduce debt.

    More of that silly 'logic' from another thread...
    ac2020 wrote: »
    There are a lot of people out there with untreated problems that prevent them from working normal jobs.

    Lets say someone has crohns, or ulceritive colitis. They need to see two doctors - a regular one and a specialist. If they cant afford health insurance because they are in a medium-low paying job and their rent, food, and other living bills force them to live paycheck to paycheck - then just forget about it. Doctor visits sure arent going to happen. Never mind they won't be able to afford expensive medicine which I know costs 140 bucks a month.

    It can be exceptionally debilitating. People with extreme pains simply cannot many times work a job that requires a set schedule. Had they had access to the doctors and medicine and higher-priced diet they NEED, they could get possibly back to an almost "normal" lifestyle and work a regular job. Increasing pay, possibly getting off welfare if on it, ect. Their lives would be changed.

    But if you guys are still lacking your critical thinking skills because it's been so long since you old men have been in school, then I suppose you can keep regurgitating the same old tired, mindless, and boring buzzwords like socialism, liberal utopia, lazy, losers, blah blah blah.

    If the "liberal utopia" is spending money here to help our poor and sick I will take that over the "conservative utopia" of constantly wasting money in the mideast anyday. Turn into Fox lately? These idiots are pushing all out for Iran. :thumbsup
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,301 Admiral
    White House to announce $300M in aid Friday to make Detroit safer, erase blight
    WASHINGTON — Nearly $300 million in aid for Detroit — from federal and state coffers, private businesses and charitable foundations — will be announced Friday as Obama administration officials visit the city to discuss what can be done to help eradicate blight, improve transportation, encourage new business and make residents safer.
    http://www.freep.com/article/20130926/NEWS01/309260199/white-house-bankruptcy-aid-for-detroit-blight-removal

    I bet a lot of that money could be saved with a $2 zippo.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,301 Admiral
    AC are you in debt or do you pay your bills? Do you live within a budget? That's all conservatives are asking the government to do.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    cpr wrote: »
    AC are you in debt or do you pay your bills? Do you live within a budget? That's all conservatives are asking the government to do.

    No
    Yes
    Yes

    Oh is that all they're asking? Why do they only ask that when a democrat is in the White House? For credibility you need consistency, not pandering. As I already pointed out they didnt seem to care about that 'budget' when they pissed away 6 trillion in the sandbox. Nooo, back then it was "the cost of freedom!" And how dare those anti-american "libs" be against it!

    Now all of a sudden they are so concerned with the debt when we want to spend it at home to help the sick and poor and middle class. Yeah, I get it alright.
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • NACl H2O LuvrNACl H2O Luvr Posts: 12,386 AG
    ac2020 wrote: »

    Mhmmm. As I said, the Iraq war could have paid for 20-60 (or more) years of Obamacare.

    It's "socialism" and "illogical" if we spend money at home to help people and "the cost of freedom" when we **** it away in a desert.

    Do you remember what happened on Sept, 11th, 2001???

    I am not agreeing with the Iraq war, however at the time ALL Americans were blinded with rage, and seething for revenge after 9/11.

    SO please stop with "Holier-Than-Thou" comments, 24 months after 9/11 Bush's approval rating were extremely high, and OUR war in Iraq was applauded by almost everyone, go read your history books, and stop with the ridiculous and embarrassing (for you) comments..
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    Do you remember what happened on Sept, 11th, 2001???

    :shrug

    SO please stop with "Holier-Than-Thou" comments, 24 months after 9/11 Bush's approval rating were extremely high, and OUR war in Iraq was applauded by almost everyone, go read your history books, and stop with the ridiculous and embarrassing (for you) comments..

    I supported the Iraq war so this comment is obviously wrong.

    I cleared this up in the other thread.
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • NACl H2O LuvrNACl H2O Luvr Posts: 12,386 AG
    ac2020 wrote: »
    :shrug

    Exactly, I expected as much.....you have no retort to FACTS....as usual.
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 21,882 AG
    cpr wrote: »
    Flawed premiss, Obama and the fed just keep printing money and piling up debt to cover the costs. The country would have to collapse for anyone to change their thinking.

    The collapse is not all about money, it is about the realization that the government cant fullfill the promises. The weight is the burden of implementation, the burden on the economy, the "new level" of health care - which is reduced services that people are not used to, the complexity to visit a doctor, etc... This may increase health care for those that dont have it now but it will reduce health care and its options to those that actually PAY for it.

    Pressing for total implementation is the answer to ending it once and for all.
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,301 Admiral
    AC, I've said it before and others have also. Bush should have asked more of the American people and had a war bond and war tax. But that is in the past. If interest rates go up to 6% all tax income will go to paying the debt. Or to China and Japan who own a lot of our debt. This county has to get it's spending under control.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    Exactly, I expected as much.....you have no retort to FACTS....as usual.

    Oh I remember - it was Pearl Harbor, right?

    Which coincidentally had about as much to do with 9-11 as Iraq did.
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • cprcpr Posts: 9,301 Admiral
    The collapse is not all about money, it is about the realization that the government cant fullfill the promises. The weight is the burden of implementation, the burden on the economy, the "new level" of health care - which is reduced services that people are not used to, the complexity to visit a doctor, etc... This may increase health care for those that dont have it now but it will reduce health care and its options to those that actually PAY for it.

    Pressing for total implementation is the answer to ending it once and for all.

    Very true and if you look at the health care pyramid most of the spending goes to the sickest people. Limits will have to be implemented.
    I'm not opposed to limits BTW.
    "The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function." F. Scott Fitzgerald

    "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr
  • NACl H2O LuvrNACl H2O Luvr Posts: 12,386 AG
    ac2020 wrote: »
    Oh I remember - it was Pearl Harbor, right?

    Which coincidentally had about as much to do with 9-11 as Iraq did.

    Its amazing how hindsight is 20/20.

    Gives the Armchair quarterbacks great perspective.


    NOW...I agree that the war in Iraq was a dumb move.....at the time however, most of us we were all in. So, stop just blaming the Republicans for it, that is all I'm saying.
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    This may increase health care for those that dont have it now but it will reduce health care and its options to those that actually PAY for it.

    Ok now you finally post a legitimate concern. Because to be honest - I'm sick of the GOP lecturing me on fiscal responsibility. So I have fun calling their BS on it.

    One of my biggest concerns is the shock of an increase of 30 million people into a system with no increase of doctors to balance it. So it is likely we will see increased waiting times until the extra demand for doctors will cause more people to study and become doctors.

    There is always an equilibrium. We may have to wait several years for it to balance out.
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • rickcrickc Posts: 9,172 Admiral
    Do you really believe ACA is going to put that great an increase on medical care

    Those people have been there all along and they have been getting medical care

    We are really just changing how it is paid for

    It really should help hospitals with their Indigent care
  • FibberMckeeFibberMckee Posts: 12,826 AG
    Conservative fatalism is always right below the surface & based on End Timer cult myth. Their condescension relies on the escape chute of the Rapture whisking them away from all the unworthy condemned consumers.
    skeery wrote: »
    We all may be dead by then.

    Their denials are a form of pre-death. Their delusion is everybody else secretly wants to jump on their supernatural bandwagon, as if was a life boat & conveniently forgets the crest of the wave of aging Baby Boomers & Right to Religious Freedom. Their alternative is a Biblical Conservative Gulag, where the top 10% owns it all, instead of just a measly 90% of everything.

    Better to follow the latest Pope Francis forecast & Let Cross Cult Collapse - Like a House of Cards.
  • shadowwalkershadowwalker Posts: 2,200 Captain
    Come on Liberals it's OBAMA care. Say it loud and say it proud, you own this thing 100%. Lets have no cowering behind 'ACA', Obama calls it "OBAMA CARE" don't back away from its glory now. :grin
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,487 AG
    Once the takers get the taste of another benefit they will bite on and hold tight like grim death. Just like every other govt giveaway,,, once the camel has it's nose in the tent,,, it is coming in.. Sad such a huge portion of our nation has lost the quality of self reliance.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    fins4me wrote: »
    Once the takers get the taste of another benefit they will bite on and hold tight like grim death. Just like every other govt giveaway,,, once the camel has it's nose in the tent,,, it is coming in.. Sad such a huge portion of our nation has lost the quality of self reliance.

    Again..."takers, takers, takers".

    I have already pointed out how Obamacare will help out hard workers that put into the system as well and just don't have enough money left over to pay for healthcare.

    Jesus try critical thinking skills beyond the mindless "takers" "socialists" "losers" "lazy" "liberal utopia" buzzwords thrown around. It's tiresome and just boring in debate.

    My proposal for America to get healthy and MASSIVELY reduce health care costs? Stop the production of carbs and sugar. Obama's way is more free-market friendly.
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • Mister-JrMister-Jr Posts: 29,161 AG
    fins4me wrote: »
    Once the takers get the taste of another benefit they will bite on and hold tight like grim death. Just like every other govt giveaway,,, once the camel has it's nose in the tent,,, it is coming in.. Sad such a huge portion of our nation has lost the quality of self reliance.

    You have been out in the pasture too long. We ain't talking cows or chickens here.
    Vote for the other candidate
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,487 AG
    Mister-Jr wrote: »
    You have been out in the pasture too long. We ain't talking cows or chickens here.

    leaches, ticks, vampire bats, bed bugs,,, will these come closer?
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • phlatsphilphlatsphil Posts: 14,632 AG
    Come on Liberals it's OBAMA care. Say it loud and say it proud, you own this thing 100%. Lets have no cowering behind 'ACA', Obama calls it "OBAMA CARE" don't back away from its glory now. :grin

    Understanding that republicans will never give him credit for doing anything good, President Obama said the other day "Once the Affordable Care Act is working well, I guarantee you they will not call it Obamacare."
  • ac2020ac2020 Posts: 5,730 Officer
    fins4me wrote: »
    leaches, ticks, vampire bats, bed bugs,,, will these come closer?

    See you at church on Sunday.
    The only time republicans and democrats are right is when they're blaming each other. :USA
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 14,487 AG
    ac2020 wrote: »
    See you at church on Sunday.

    I will be on a corn picker,,, but glad to hear you will be there,,, pray for me.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
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