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Well it's starting - we are getting sector separation shoved down our throat,



  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 478 Deckhand
    and whatever smart *** asked where the punch line is, should be shown, after the meeting with a nice punch.
  • TypicleseTypiclese Posts: 393 Deckhand
    Interesting they included Gags in their numbers...guess I missed it. Good catch! (pun intended)

    IMHO not so sure a boycott on the supporting head boat businesses is the proper approach. I like to hold to the "do no harm" method. Listen, these guys have families to feed just like we do. Perhaps we can win them over with our solid arguments. I now, seems like a pipe dream. If we move to attack their livelihood, they'll fight us every step of the way (not that its happening now).

    Getting the correct data presented and acted upon, like what was mandated in 2006 is where we win. Although initial reaction is to go after the head boats guys that support this, I think in the long run they'd make better allies than enemies.

    One good place to start is the FRA. DISCLAIMER - I'm just a private citizen with no affiliation to the FRA. However, the Sharktank has been and continues to fight for our right to fish. Choice is yours, but if you can't make it out to meetings etc. then consider a donation in any amount you can afford. I can't afford much these days, but a few bucks to the FRA I know is money well spent.

    Letters, not emails, to your representatives and Senators must continue to flow - squeaky wheels do get the grease. It just takes time for them to hear the noise. Be professional and present facts. Be ready for a phone call or as a minimum and email or letter back to you. The first one is usually a form type letter, but if you persist, you'll get better results. Focus as well on the members of the House Committee for Natural resources (Chaired by Doc Hastings) and the Subcommittee on Fisheries, Wildlife and Insular Affairs (Jon Flemming, Subcommittee Chairman). Let yourself be heard. We'll get no redress through NMFS or it's clients. Best to go above their heads to the oversight committee(s).

    Long fight already and it will continue to be an uphill battle. Persistence and facts will in the end win the day.
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 478 Deckhand
    the do no harm approach has it's application elsewhere; while it's admirable, it's a weakness that we cannot afford. Hit 'em where it hurts the first time with all you have.
  • TypicleseTypiclese Posts: 393 Deckhand
    Riptide, I hear you. And not trying to defend the decisions of the head boat guys that support the mandates. I think in the long run, if the NMFS gets its way, we are ALL going to lose out on our fisheries (see California). Hopefully someone can open their eyes, but alas I believe they are terminally short-sighted. If they continue on the wrong side, they will be shocked to reality soon enough. Our goal is to prevent that reality shock.
  • Ol MuckyOl Mucky Posts: 5,568 Admiral
    Typiclese wrote: »

    IMHO not so sure a boycott on the supporting head boat businesses is the proper approach. I like to hold to the "do no harm" method. Listen, these guys have families to feed just like we do..

    Lets forget about all the mom and pops that have had to shut their doors due to reduced recreational fishing days, catches etc. What about how they've been hit? As long as the commercial (and I throw for hire head boats in the commercial category) guys get theirs right? Screw all the other families that have suffered and will suffer. Recreational fishing is a 6 billion dollar a year "business" in Florida alone, and the feds are doing everything they can to take that and give it to commercial entities. **** that, hit them where it hurts
    I have a much bigger and more powerful button
  • Very good points Bo
  • Last ChanceLast Chance Posts: 116 Officer
    Hubbard's boats at Johns Pass is on this headboat program, but they are against Sector Separation as much as any of us are. Capt Mark Hubbard has been in the battle against it Sector Separation from the start and played a big part in the protest that was held at NMFS in St. Petersburg in 2010. He was told about the headboat plan but never was followed up with an invite. I talked with Capt Mark and he did not want to be left out to see how this worked if these other headboats are in it. I had to have Councilwoman Pam Dana bring it up to Randy Boggs,
    ( head of the headboat project) in a council meeting to have Capt, Mark added to the EFP. Now we have someone on our side not EDF backed to tell us how it really worked good or bad.

    The headboats in Clearwater are in this plan too, but they are EDF backed boats that were in the plan from the start. These are the headboats that are working against the recreational fishermen to have Sector Separation.

  • Yep, I remember talking To Captain mark at the sector separation meeting and he was stead fast against it.
    As was (now Maderia beach Mayor) Travis Paladdino.(sp?) who was a duel permit holder.
    They saw it for the money grab it was/is.
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 478 Deckhand
    What's the purpose of this other than lining some chosen pockets with money derived from a public resource (that is being denied to the public I might add)? What are they hoping to prove/disprove?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    It's the foot in the door for both Sector Separation and implementing catch shares in the Gulf recreational fisheries. At the end of the 2 year "pilot", they will exclaim great success, just as they did with the commercial red snapper IFQs, actually giving IFQs the credit for bringing the fishery back. What a total crock of BS.

    Never mind that the Gulf Council tabled Sector Separation last year, and approved this EFP and are looking to approve regionalization which also includes Sector Separation under the name "suballocation between for-hire and private recs". They are implementing Sector Separation without even mentioning those 2 DREADED WORDS.

    Look for an onslaught of similar EFP "pilot" programs for the charter-for-hire "cooperatives" in the near future. EDF is busy training their lap dogs for the upcoming dog and pony show in October to do just that.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    selling a 'punch card' (like for 25- 30 fish a year) for red snappers per person was not such a stupid plan now huh? you guys need to take ideas and advice sometimes and look outside of the box .. and I am not saying that this was the best plan but you have to find a way to manage this..
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 478 Deckhand
    I dont care how they allow me to keep some of the fish I catch...........just let me keep some. Speaking of listening and taking advice, it would be nice if the mgmt council actually listened to the public, but they only do it bc it's required, and then they go ahead and play EDF puppet. It's a **** shame that I can go to a fish market and buy ARS but when I catch them (and that's all the time) I'm not allowed to keep one for dinner.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    selling a 'punch card' (like for 25- 30 fish a year) for red snappers per person was not such a stupid plan now huh? you guys need to take ideas and advice sometimes and look outside of the box .. and I am not saying that this was the best plan but you have to find a way to manage this..

    Please explain who decides the number of fish per person per year? Where did the 25-30 fish per year come from? Who is to say that even IF they started out at 25-30 fish/year that they would not simply reduce that number every year like they have done with our seasons?

    THAT is a very LARGE problem - when the regulators are given the power to delegate fish per person per year (catch shares) when they don't have a clue how many fishermen are fishing offshore, nor does their data count the fish swimming around artificial structures.
  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    Tom, I came up with this figure because I used to work on head boats and some of the best bottom fishing boats in the Gulf of Mexico.. we built reefs, we grew our own fish, and I NEVER once in my life stole or copied a number from the people I worked and built reefs for!
    we did this because it was needed..! I look back on the charters 12hours to two day trips and in the winter time when there was NO charter fishing we would build a reef, take it out and sink it.. and go catch enough fish to pay the crew and fuel.. - come on man you guys have stats from how many head boats there are to how many people buy a salt water license in the state of Florida, Alabama and Texas and you guys will not take any advice on using your 'hard' numbers provided ..that are concrete.. to make a plan. In more information any 'Commercial boat' that has a RS Number has to sell to a licensed dealer or a fish house and 'IN OLDEN TIMES' they were able to sell their fish from their own boat .. you guys have pushed the envelope so far on the crazy side.. Feds, State and Commercial that you know nothing more that craziness.. and by doing this everyone that disrespects science, reports.. and by doing this the American people that just want to go catch a dinner are effected by all this fighting and grey area between parties.. figure it out some day because it means something more and it means peoples livings, homes , futures.. I fish the Atlantic side now and today's fish count was 1 wahoo, two mahi and 8 blackfin tuna.. this is what good fishermen do .. they catch fish and in all there was fuel spent out of state licenses bought and some smiling faces.. IF we were to be going for RED SNAPPER (and yes I asked all the guys on the trip today) 'if they had a chance to purchase a $7.50 punch card for a chance to catch a couple red snapper'.. they all said yes.. I also asked if this was the only time you got to fish and you caught nothing or it was rough as heck and you took home NO fish would you be mad? they all said that's the LUCK OF THE TRIP.. you guys have to come to some conclusion on this and keep the people out of a grey area.. IF you find a boat crossing the line and screwing the rules do what the Australians do .. burn it down.. you will find that if you make a rule stand by it.. if you charged for a punch card at $0.00 (add your own numbers) and 3/4 of the people only used 1/4 to 1/3 of their punch card or snapper allowed don't you think that they would at least feel good that they got to catch a nice dinner? and who cares if the people that caught the limit of their card got pissed because they 'want more' .. because it sure is better that what we nave now with no season! and furthermore a head boat or charter boat brings in revenue, they have a Captain .. mates and dock age they pay to someone and yearly registrations and Licenses , motel and hotel rooms, dinners at restaurants and even fuel to get to a boat just to go fishing .. the kicker is that behind everyone of the things I listed above have employees that make money because of the people coming in.. I spent 8 hours in a tower of a boat today thinking I was one of the most lucky people in the world just going fishing.. their are a lot more like me that just want you guys to sit down on both sides and hash it out.. please.. respect the recreational fisherman to the commercial side.
  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    one more thing is "they" are also in my cross hairs and it ticks off some of the people I know, in high places that I still have a voice when it comes down to it.. if we were to make a rule they also have to abide by it.. if we make good rules we all win.. sorry I don't write better but I do have a stake in this life and I love fishing.. my personal best snapper by the way was 42 lbs and it ate a cigar minnow I was try to catch a mangrove snapper with .. we in Florida SCREW ourselves with penny pinchers that have done away with snook stamps, lobster stamps.. and we could go back to having pride .. heck I would drive 11 hours and pay $7.50 to get a chance once again to take home a couple good dinners.. wouldn't you?

    1 dinner like that pays for the cost.. ask anyone.. or everyone you know.. maybe the state would put out more reefs?
  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    and sorry if I seem to be jumping on you I am not I just want to see a level ground where my grand kid's or their kids can catch a fish..
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    As far as I can tell, you went from 25-30 fish/year per person down to 2 fish/year for $7.50 - I can only imagine what Roy Crabtree would do with your catch card concept.
  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    .. maybe he would listen and sit down with you and figure it out over a beer..???

    .. maybe if you two could not do this simple step to figuring it out, both of you should walk away.. and let others get all the information at hand and take a shot at it... ?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    "...come on man you guys have stats from how many head boats there are to how many people buy a salt water license in the state of Florida, Alabama and Texas and you guys will not take any advice on using your 'hard' numbers provided ..that are concrete.. to make a plan."

    There is nothing "concrete" about the numbers shown in this graph from the regionalization document.

    According to these figures, Texas head boats accounted for 68.1% of the total Texas
    red snapper landings in 2012, leaving 31.9% to be divided between private recs and charter.

    If you look at the head boat landings from the other 4 Gulf states, the head boats averaged 6.7% of those 4 states’ total red snapper landings in 2012, leaving 93.3% for the priv. recs. and CFH.

    Why such a large discrepancy? I believe it corroborates the fact that the Texas private rec and charter landings are being egregiously under-reported here, yet the Director of Coastal Fisheries refuses to discuss this or any resultant projected affects on Texas recreational fishermen.

    For example, Texas has 190 charterboat federal reef fish permits, and TPWD numbers above indicate that in 2012, that recreational fishermen fishing aboard their boats landed 39,128 pounds of red snapper. Assume that there are 175 ACTIVE permitted vessels fishing, that they were able to fish 30 days out of the 47 day 2012 red snapper season, and that they were able to put an average of 5 fishermen per day on limits of 8 pound snapper. That comes to a total landings of 420,000 pounds - NOT 39,000 pounds. To look at it another way, 39,128 / 80 pounds (5 limits of 8 pound fish) = 489 trips / 30 fishing days = 16 charter boats went fishing in the 2012 red snapper season in the entire state of Texas. What happened to the other 159 boats?

    Additionally, TPWD numbers claim that Private Rec fishermen caught over 4X the amount of the charter landings. Let’s assume they just caught an EQUAL amount - that’s 420,000 pounds.

    420,000 (private) + 420,000 (charter) + 420,000 (headboat) = 1,260,000 pounds - NOT 616,525 pounds - a 643,475 pound difference. If in reality Texas recreational anglers have been catching 1,260,000 pounds yet are constrained to 616,525, combined with the hard cap/payback provisions in the regionalization plan, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the end result.

    Lastly, if the more realistic numbers were used in the above chart, the Texas % of allocation would be closer to 22% of the total Gulf red snapper allocation - NOT 12%. BIG DIFFERENCE.
  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    I agree that the landing reports need to have some creditability to them and there has to be limits put in place.. anyone with a job of reporting these should be willing and eager to put up real numbers so we can all have an idea of 'what needs to be done' for limits and seasons. You do have a very tough road to pave right now and I hope that people will work together..

    we used to do 1 day trips on the boat I worked on for $1,600.00 for ten people and we had a nice fish box on her but when the guys filled 'that box' we stopped on the reds. I have to give credit to the captain back then on managing the reds himself and not overfishing spots.. one of the jobs you had while watching the wheel (going from place to place) was to watch the depth finder for new spots.. if our people in charge that get paid to report numbers are not doing their jobs then we should get schools and university's along with a state fish counter should be at docks to take fin clip samples and to record catches for at least two years so we can get a base line count..
  • TypicleseTypiclese Posts: 393 Deckhand

    Again, I hear you. There are unfortunate casualties in any war. Been that way since man first took up conflict with another man.

    Now, what is important is to focus on why the mom-and-pops lost the business to begin with - not the result of the head boat guys. In the grand scheme the head boats are small fish. The prize, and what EDF et.al. is after, is OUR rights to fish OUR waters and harvest OUR resources. The forces are aligned to absolutely strip your right to fish your waters. Their plan is to slowly constrict your access, until there is none. Period. Then they can divide up the spoils with those that will harvest OUR resources only to sell back to us, and the rest of the world, at gouged prices.

    More will suffer for sure if we don't focus on what their objective is (getting rich is number one). Again, IMHO it would be better for us to be united with the head boat folks rather than having them working for/with the enemy. The more united we are, the more powerful we become. Divided we are simply easy targets for them to pick off at will.
  • Typiclese wrote: »
    ............ Divided we are simply easy targets for them to pick off at will.

    That is what SS has been about from the beginning.........well, that and $$
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,207 Admiral
    Thanks guys for contributing so much to this thread.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 5,207 Admiral
    :machinegun Divide & Conquer! EFP is all about 'control!' Together, recreational, head boats, charter boats, & commercial, we are strong; united we can control; divided we are controlled!

    NOAA Announces Approval of an Exempted Fishing Permit for a Pilot Study by Gulf of Mexico Headboats Evaluating an Allocation-Based Management System

    NOAA Fisheries has issued an exempted fishing permit (EFP) to the Gulf of Mexico Headboat Cooperative (Cooperative). The Cooperative consists of headboat owners/captains

    I had a long talk about 'EFP' with Captain Mark Hubbard, owner of Hubbard's marina. Hubbard's is completely against the 'EFP' program. Captain Mark Hubbard said, even though he would probably benefit from the program, he is against it because it is bad for fishing. Captain Hubbard believes everyone, not just a select few, should have access to our fishery. Hubbard's strongly opposes any form of sector separation.
    Just think about it...say you have really big bucks tied up in your boat. But the only way you can legally keep a red snapper is to go on a head boat.
    Is there really any wonder why trust in NOAA is at an all time low?
  • Jack HexterJack Hexter New Port RicheyPosts: 5,309 Moderator
    selling a 'punch card' (like for 25- 30 fish a year) for red snappers per person was not such a stupid plan now huh? you guys need to take ideas and advice sometimes and look outside of the box .. and I am not saying that this was the best plan but you have to find a way to manage this..

    What do you mean "selling"... Who is going to sell the card- Wal-Mart? Who "sold the commercial sector their allocation and how much did they pay for it? And who "sold" the CFH their allocation and how much did they pay for it?
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 478 Deckhand
    That's a **** good question.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,595 Captain
    Capt Blood wrote: »
    Wow...disappear for awhile and come back to the same ole same ole. Y'all need to do more fishing and less stroking of each other...seriously.

    An enviro-funded shill, with graphics provided by THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND to boot!

  • testerman28testerman28 Posts: 1,329 Officer
    .. bottom line is no idea or new set of rules will ever work when no one has any common ground..
  • Last ChanceLast Chance Posts: 116 Officer
    I have been saying that for years. When all the different groups sit down and decide we really are fighting for the same thing, we will get something done. I sat in a small meeting a couple of months ago that Ocean Conservancy and I put together. We had Ocean Conservancy, PEW, CFA, several fishermen, Rep. Steve Southerland aid and I represented the RFA. This was the first time a group like this had ever say down together to discuss anything. We talked about the biggest problem we have and that's data collection. To my surprise we all agreed it needs to be fixed and some very good ideas came out of this meeting. It's going to take several more of these little night time meetings while we are at Gulf Council meetings to but all the ideas together for something to present to the Council but some of us have found some " Common Ground" to work on. It seems a lot of the fishery groups are scared that if they talk with the enviro's that they are just going to take their plan over. We all really want the same thing a sustainable fishery. We are just wanting to get their in different ways and the RFA is ready to work together on this " Common Ground" to try and make the fisheries better for all of us.

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