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FWC to ban jig fishing in BGP

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  • doubledupdoubledup Posts: 235 Officer
    My next day off, I think maybe next week. I'm bringing a camera man out to the pass with me so video what happens when you drop piece of lead with a hook on top with no tail. I have done it before. I'm very busy right now so I hope this happens next week. Video will posted online shortly after. If my attempt fails I will report the facts as true as my camera man will be a sponsored PTTS captain. I drive and fish, he records. One rod. My money is on me "hooking" up.
  • LGILGI Posts: 348 Officer
    doubledup wrote: »
    My next day off, I think maybe next week. I'm bringing a camera man out to the pass with me so video what happens when you drop piece of lead with a hook on top with no tail. I have done it before. I'm very busy right now so I hope this happens next week. Video will posted online shortly after. If my attempt fails I will report the facts as true as my camera man will be a sponsored PTTS captain. I drive and fish, he records. One rod. My money is on me "hooking" up.


    I agree that this is the best way to prove that the jig snags fish for those who call for video proof. I don't think there is a way to film a jig snagging a tarpon underwater as I believe the camera would keep the fish away from the jig.

    Mike, if doubleup can catch a fish on a Boca Grande jig with no tail would that be proof of snagging, or do you think tarpon will eat lead on a hook?
  • RJ KirkerRJ Kirker Posts: 110 Officer
    Tarponator wrote: »
    It was peer reviewed ...

    It was? Who? When? Where?
  • GetnBusyLivnGetnBusyLivn Posts: 50 Greenhorn
    AlwaysAbu wrote: »
    Do you really think guides won't come to BGP if the jig is banned? (your naive or ignorant- flip a coin)

    Do you really think people will change courtesy behaviors if they are not jigging? (What is tied to the end of the line does not make you an a$$*ole, you start out that way then tie something on the line)

    This is the age of youtube, facebook, and forums and if you think the "young anglers" will now learn traditional ways to "respect the fishery" from "Old Salts" any different if jigging is banned - well... go light your candle to read this and tow your boattrailer with a horse. ( whatever the coin landed on earlier, now its the other one)

    I wish we could also return to a tradition that seems to have eroded...the American one that believes in respecting individual freedoms and not try to shove your personal ethics and beliefs down the throats of others as long as no crime or laws are being broken. It is a right to protest and lobby your government to change laws and I support that 100%. Make the case for a benefit to the fishery to FWC- no argument from me.

    It is vigilante-ism and thuggish to confront and persecute private citizens acting within the law and regulations because you disagree.

    Be sure to do it Memorial Day weekend when the Wounded Warriors are honored. Go screw up their fishing day; fishing legally within the regs when they are the ones that paid the price for you to be able to fish at all.


    Great post
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    Tarponator wrote: »
    Meanwhile, we've done absolutely nothing about "saving the tarpon" from their biggest threat (IMO) -- long fight times and the sharks that take advantage of it every day of the week.


    How do you expect this to happen?

    I would say I am the perfect example. If I hook into a 150#er I usually watch the thrill of him jumping 4 or 5 times and then I pop him off. I have no interest in fighting a fish for 1 or 2 hours.
  • LGILGI Posts: 348 Officer
    How do you expect this to happen?

    I would say I am the perfect example. If I hook into a 150#er I usually watch the thrill of him jumping 4 or 5 times and then I pop him off. I have no interest in fighting a fish for 1 or 2 hours.

    We use a 25min rule on my boat. Boat it in 25 or break it off. I will let that slide for a first tarpon. I must admit it is more about getting back out to fish than the Tarpon, who wants to watch someone fight a fish for an hour or more?
  • Captain SlayerCaptain Slayer Posts: 29 Greenhorn
    Tarponator, disingenuous, perhaps not. Capt. Mark bennett who i would proclaim
    To be one of the best tarpon guides on the water with no interest for himself regarding this matter, wrote a very interesting article about the FWC and their mis-handling of data and other things, ill try to get it posted for all to read.. Not to mention the study should have been much more extensive catching many more specimens, it was a joke of a study, we all could collaborate and put forth better data than that.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    LGI wrote: »
    I agree that this is the best way to prove that the jig snags fish for those who call for video proof. I don't think there is a way to film a jig snagging a tarpon underwater as I believe the camera would keep the fish away from the jig.

    Mike, if doubleup can catch a fish on a Boca Grande jig with no tail would that be proof of snagging, or do you think tarpon will eat lead on a hook?

    I would prefer to see it actually happening on video, but that would make for very compelling evidence that the fish can be snagged.

    Let's also not forget the contention by some that the jig is not being eaten at all, so we similarly need to disprove that assertion before branding all those with a jig on their line as snagging tarpon.

    In other words, just because Chuck can snag one with a bare hook/weight doesn't mean they aren't also eating them.

    Regardless, filming a tarpon being snagged by a bare hook would be a large step in my eyes, and for whatever that's worth.....Mike
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    How do you expect this to happen?

    I would say I am the perfect example. If I hook into a 150#er I usually watch the thrill of him jumping 4 or 5 times and then I pop him off. I have no interest in fighting a fish for 1 or 2 hours.

    If you knew how to fight a tarpon and/or drive a boat in support of your angler, you would never need to fight it for 1 or 2 hours (sorry, I couldn't resist :) ) -- but popping them off after some predetermined time limit (as you and LGI suggested) is a workable solution to the problem, IMO.

    Now, try and tell that to a pasty New Yorker paying $800 to catch his first tarpon on a guided trip, or even your (or my) nephew visiting from Mulberry catching his first tarpon from your boat.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    Tarponator, disingenuous, perhaps not. Capt. Mark bennett who i would proclaim
    To be one of the best tarpon guides on the water with no interest for himself regarding this matter, wrote a very interesting article about the FWC and their mis-handling of data and other things, ill try to get it posted for all to read.. Not to mention the study should have been much more extensive catching many more specimens, it was a joke of a study, we all could collaborate and put forth better data than that.

    Please post the article. I would be very interested in reading it. However, as a popular guide in the area, I'm not so sure he's without interest, but I would certainly agree he's one of the better guides down there from what I've seen over the years.

    As for the "joke" of a study and the number of samples. Tell me, did you ever take statistics? If not, that's cool, and I can explain it to you (don't have time right now, have to run), but in short, the study had enough samples to be statistically valid on hook placement -- more than 200. On mortality, the data was a bit light, but still statistically significant.

    Lastly, I agree we could certainly collaborate and put forth more data, and I, for one, will be keeping data on this going forward. I would encourage all of us to do the same.

    Again, please do post what Mark wrote, I would be very interested in reading it. Thanks in advance...Mike
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    RJ Kirker wrote: »
    It was? Who? When? Where?

    I will try and find out for you.
  • Capt. PantsCapt. Pants Posts: 667 Officer
    Tarponator wrote: »
    Now, try and tell that to a pasty New Yorker paying $800 to catch his first tarpon on a guided trip
    Why do we gotta be pasty? Why is this always about NY and the rest of the country?
    We may be chubby, loud and obnoxious, but certainly not pasty!! :wink
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    Just got word that there are over 150 boats that are going to be protesting.


    Now that is ALOT of boats.


    This is getting interesting.
  • jrimmer1987jrimmer1987 Posts: 70 Deckhand
    Just got word that there are over 150 boats that are going to be protesting.


    Now that is ALOT of boats.


    This is getting interesting.



    What is the protest date?
  • beargonefishinbeargonefishin Posts: 64 Deckhand
    Tarponator wrote: »
    I would prefer to see it actually happening on video, but that would make for very compelling evidence that the fish can be snagged.

    Let's also not forget the contention by some that the jig is not being eaten at all, so we similarly need to disprove that assertion before branding all those with a jig on their line as snagging tarpon.

    In other words, just because Chuck can snag one with a bare hook/weight doesn't mean they aren't also eating them.

    Regardless, filming a tarpon being snagged by a bare hook would be a large step in my eyes, and for whatever that's worth.....Mike

    Why don't you drop a jig for yourself when the "bite is on", and don't speed reel when you feel a bump on ypur line. Wait for the "bite" and see for yourself. You know what a tarpon bite feels like.

    And the problem with the study, is they determined a tarpon hooked in the mouth region, outside the mouth in the clipper, to be a non foul hooked fish.
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    Why don't you drop a jig for yourself when the "bite is on", and don't speed reel when you feel a bump on ypur line. Wait for the "bite" and see for yourself. You know what a tarpon bite feels like.

    I have no desire to snag tarpon -- I find the idea revolting to be honest -- but it might just come to that.

    But again, that would only prove one side of the equation -- that tarpon can be snagged. It doesn't disprove the assertion that tarpon are eating the jig as well.

    I think the best way to ascertain what's going on -- and I'm sorry if I continue to repeat myself -- is to have someone who thinks they are hooking them fairly video the process (to include an underwater camera so we can really see), and someone who thinks they can snag them (with the same underwater camera). That would take all the guesswork and innuendo out of this conversation and fill it in with facts.
    And the problem with the study, is they determined a tarpon hooked in the mouth region, outside the mouth in the clipper, to be a non foul hooked fish.

    You mean kind of like this live-bait-caught fish which was hooked, along with two or three others, outside in while fishing with STT officer Capt. Rhett Morris?

    125662102.gx2A6Vor.jpg

    Or do you think that we "foul hooked" or snagged that one?

    In short, I beg to differ that an outside-in clipper caught fish is foul hooked and the above is proof.

    Do you disagree? If so, why?

    Thanks for your response. Take care....Mike
  • Captain SlayerCaptain Slayer Posts: 29 Greenhorn
    Tarponator, that is a fouled hooked fish.. It also appears to be a j-hook.. The single fish i mentioned i foul hooked was also with a j-hook. I since have exclusively used mutu light wire circle hooks and have caught hundreds of fish using this hook with outstanding landing percentages and 100% of the time in the mouth inside out.. If you havent used this hook i recomend you try it.. The tarpon study considers that a non foul hooked fish and imo it certainly is foul hooked. Was he fishing vertiical?
  • capeanglercapeangler Posts: 586 Officer
    Tarponator wrote: »
    I have no desire to snag tarpon -- I find the idea revolting to be honest -- but it might just come to that. But again, that would only prove one side of the equation -- that tarpon can be snagged. It doesn't disprove the assertion that tarpon are eating the jig as well.

    I think the best way to ascertain what's going on -- and I'm sorry if I continue to repeat myself -- is to have someone who thinks they are hooking them fairly video the process (to include an underwater camera so we can really see), and someone who thinks they can snag them (with the same underwater camera). That would take all the guesswork and innuendo out of this conversation and fill it in with facts.

    Dropping a camera in the pass will not work. The Pods will simply move around the camera and with the amount of current, low vis, sharks and snatch hooks tied to 3-5 oz. lead weights in the water, I don't think it is wise to send a diver down there to film exactly what happens in the depths of BGP. Thus the primary reason why we really don't have any conclusive evidence either way.

    Now, all of the followers of these threads have all read about the technique. Let’s think about this again in real simple terms. When an angler is instructed to drift a Sharp 9/0 J Hook, attached to the top of a 3-5 Oz weight, using nearly invisible leader and weights, inches off the bottom, while the driver positions the boat directly on top of a school of fish (15’-30’ high), will the line or weighted hook eventually brush alongside a fish? Of course it will. When it does, what happens when the angler is instructed to immediately reel as fast as they can? Will the weighted hook eventually snag a fish, or in some cases, snag multiple fish? Of course it will!!!

    Now, why does the angler drifting natural baits through the same schools result in zero hook ups, when the anglers Jigging all around the angler, seem to be hooking up regularly? Why is it when the live bait angler quickly reels in their line when it brushes against a fish, does it never result in a hooked fish, yet it often results in a hooked fish for a jigger? Why don’t the same Jigs work on the Tarpon on the beach, hill and pan? How is it possible the Jigger can have the same results without a Jig Tail? Is it true that a Tarpon will strike a bare hook attached to a Led weight? We’ve all heard these arguments 1,000 times! bla, bla, and bla.

    Mike, if I took you in the Pass, you with live bait and me with a Hook & Lead with No Jig body, or even, ANY jig body under 3” of your choice (You can pick hot pink with purple polka dots and soak it in WD40 for a week for all I care), and I jump 3 Tarpon to your none in the first 30 minutes, would you then be a believer?

    Also, why would a Jig Guide with paying customers, unsubscribe to the method and wait endlessly for a bite, when everyone around him is jumping fish?
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    Tarponator, that is a fouled hooked fish.. It also appears to be a j-hook.. The single fish i mentioned i foul hooked was also with a j-hook. I since have exclusively used mutu light wire circle hooks and have caught hundreds of fish using this hook with outstanding landing percentages and 100% of the time in the mouth inside out.. If you havent used this hook i recomend you try it.. The tarpon study considers that a non foul hooked fish and imo it certainly is foul hooked. Was he fishing vertiical?

    I could not disagree more. It was not a foul hooked fish, nor were the other ones we caught that day -- unless, of course, you contend those live-bait caught fish were snagged.

    FYI, I was fishing with a very similar rig to the one the BGFGA uses. A few ounces of lead above a swivel to about 6 to 8' of leader terminated by a circle hook. We were fishing vertically (or nearly vertically) using pass crabs on the hill tide on the afternoon of June 12, 2010.

    Furthermore, it was not a J hook, it was a circle hook. Specifically, that hook is a non-offset Mustad 39951BLN in 7/0, and I gave up using J hooks when live bait fishing in the passes several years earlier (2006 or 2007, I can't recall which, and I don't have my notes with me).

    Getting past that, here's a shot of another fish, hooked in the same place with circle hooks (I believe the first one is a heavier-gauge VMC we were playing with), but with the hook more visible:

    125662108.7Bw9ICg3.jpg

    And here is a 3rd:

    125662111.u79iEnz1.jpg

    So you know, I hooked one of them, and my girlfriend hooked the other two. I felt the thump on my fish, and there is no doubt in my mind that fish ate that bait. These three fish consist of 25% of the fish we landed that trip with Rhett, and 75% of the ones we landed on that type of rig. Of course, this is limited data, but it proves to me that live-bait caught fish can and do get hooked outside-in.

    And the hits keep on coming.... Three days prior to that trip, this time on my boat rather than Capt. Morris', here's another fish we caught in the pass on a crab using the aforementioned rig and hook. Please note the hook position:

    125662065.zNV9jkQy.jpg

    Do you still think we "foul hooked" or "snagged" those fish?

    Or in light of this evidence, will you reconsider the contention that any outside-in hooked fish must have been "foul hooked" or "snagged"?

    Curiously yours....Mike

    p.s. on a related note, we rarely see outside-in hook placement with freelined crabs or spilt-shot-weighted crabs. But with the heavy weight it's an entirely different ballgame. Without actually seeing the take, it seems to me there's something going on with a heavy weight which leads to these fish (which I would contend were eating those crabs) being hooked outside-in. And if it happens with a crab, why couldn't it also happen with a jig?

    p.s.s. thanks for the tip about the Mutu. :) Like you, and for several reasons, I prefer light wire circle hooks. That said, the Mutu light was part of the experimenting we did when evaluating circle hooks in 2005-ish. However, we found that the Mustad resulted in more landed fish (incidentally, Mustad changed the design of the 39951 a few years ago and the new ones in purple packaging aren't as good as the old ones in the green package). Have they changed the Mutu's design since then? If so, it might be time for some more experiments...as I try to tinker every year with a new hook. This year I'm playing around with the Trokar and and one other hook, but I'd be happy to add to that list.
  • Captain SlayerCaptain Slayer Posts: 29 Greenhorn
    Im familiar with the set up, i havent fished the pass like that in years, if you were with rhett im guessing you couldnt find fish other than the pass that particular outing.. Imo its foul hooked hands down. How that fish is hooked shows that if in fact the bait was inhaled (eaten) the hook went from inside of his mouth or belly region when the bait was eaten then spit back outside its mouth then gripping hold onto the cheek..

    Many factors play a roll in that pass when compared to beach and bay fishing which i now only do. Strong current, vertical fishing, large mass of fish, perhaps delayed awareness when a fish strikes 40' or more down. Those fish could have tried for the bait and very well been in its mouth but for a hook to wind up in that location means it was expelled from its mouth "if" it ate the bait.. Resulting in a foul hook up. Their also could be things going on under water in that mass of fish that increases chances of foul hooking them in the facial region..
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    capeangler wrote: »
    Dropping a camera in the pass will not work. The Pods will simply move around the camera and with the amount of current, low vis, sharks and snatch hooks tied to 3-5 oz. lead weights in the water, I don't think it is wise to send a diver down there to film exactly what happens in the depths of BGP. Thus the primary reason why we really don't have any conclusive evidence either way.

    Maybe a camera would work, maybe it would not. Why dismiss it off-hand and not even try? Can you think of a more conclusive way to prove what's happening?
    capeangler wrote: »
    Now, all of the followers of these threads have all read about the technique. Let’s think about this again in real simple terms. When an angler is instructed to drift a Sharp 9/0 J Hook, attached to the top of a 3-5 Oz weight, using nearly invisible leader and weights, inches off the bottom, while the driver positions the boat directly on top of a school of fish (15’-30’ high), will the line or weighted hook eventually brush alongside a fish? Of course it will. When it does, what happens when the angler is instructed to immediately reel as fast as they can? Will the weighted hook eventually snag a fish, or in some cases, snag multiple fish? Of course it will!!!

    That certainly is a possibility. Two points... First, the PTTS uses circle hooks, not J hooks. Second, if you fish with any type of lure (or even live bait) the worst thing you can do is to wait to set the hook, so reeling as soon as you feel a bump is just the right way to do it. Wait too long with a crab, and it quite often gets crunched and you miss the bite. Wait too long with a buster and they spit it right back out. Wait too long with the BGFGA setup I described in the post above and the fish comes straight to the surface jumps and tosses the hook before you have a chance to set it (incidentally, that's precisely that's why the BGFGA boats gun the engine). Why wouldn't the same be said for a jig?

    Now you make a good point that reeling immediately could lead to foul hooked or snagged fish, but I'm not sure I can get there from here and rule out the possibility that the fish are eating the bait.
    capeangler wrote: »
    Now, why does the angler drifting natural baits through the same schools result in zero hook ups, when the anglers Jigging all around the angler, seem to be hooking up regularly? Why is it when the live bait angler quickly reels in their line when it brushes against a fish, does it never result in a hooked fish, yet it often results in a hooked fish for a jigger? Why don’t the same Jigs work on the Tarpon on the beach, hill and pan? How is it possible the Jigger can have the same results without a Jig Tail? Is it true that a Tarpon will strike a bare hook attached to a Led weight? We’ve all heard these arguments 1,000 times! bla, bla, and bla.

    We've been through this before. I can address each of your questions if you'd like, but as you've pointed out, we've been through this many times already.
    capeangler wrote: »
    Mike, if I took you in the Pass, you with live bait and me with a Hook & Lead with No Jig body, or even, ANY jig body under 3” of your choice (You can pick hot pink with purple polka dots and soak it in WD40 for a week for all I care), and I jump 3 Tarpon to your none in the first 30 minutes, would you then be a believer?

    Do that with a bare hook and let me see where it sticks, and it would go a long way towards convincing me that snagging is possible, but for like the 10th time, that doesn't prove that tarpon don't also eat the jig.

    Listen, you could drive up to Tampa on Friday night, and we could park my boat under the Gandy bridge. I could give you 100 shots at tarpon with baitbuster not 6' off the bow of my boat. I would presume you could eventually snag one.

    Now, does that prove that I'm snagging them when I toss a baitbuster at them?

    Of course it doesn't. It just show that it is possible.

    And the same can be said for the jig and the pass.
    capeangler wrote: »
    Also, why would a Jig Guide with paying customers, unsubscribe to the method and wait endlessly for a bite, when everyone around him is jumping fish?

    Peer pressure is one reason. Let's be honest. The jig has been portrayed as the problem for as long as I've been fishing for tarpon. Guides are cliquish, and peer pressure to follow suit is strong. Heck, when I was fishing with Rhett, he had to explain to his BGFGA friends more than once that we weren't using jigs with those live bait rods. Same with Dugger. Why do you think they did that? Because, they are very afraid of what others think of them, they don't want to be associated with the "jiggers"....and I would imagine that could play a role in motivating a guide into changing tactics.

    A second reason is there are much more enjoyable (and angler-satisfying) ways to catch tarpon early. Beach fishing is one, way up the harbor is another. Guess what the ex-jigging guides are doing now? Andy and Chuck certainly aren't sitting around watching the jiggers, that's for sure. They are exploting the most day-to-day consistent time for a tarpon to eat -- at sunrise. Just in places other than the two deep holes of BGP where the jiggers rule the roost.

    And please don't think that you can't get them to eat at first light with a crab. You can. I've done it. I've also done it in the mid morning with jiggers all around me.

    So has the PTTS boat Culo Majado (Steve Kocsis), who I've been told fishes crabs quite regularly, and even won a PTTS event while fishing crabs. As always, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, as my information is 3rd hand and my memory is not what it once was.

    Take care...Mike
  • Jirvin70Jirvin70 Posts: 92 Greenhorn
    Just noticed that the lawsuit was transferred out of Sarasota County to Charlotte County. I had questioned whether venue was proper in Sarasota, and obviously others had the same thoughts...

    More filing fees for the Plaintiff. It was a good attempt to find a judge with the least knowledge of the issues as possible but was subject to being dismissed outright if any of the defendants objected to venue. There is probably some discredit to the Plaintiff' and Plaintiff's emergency motion for an injunction given they can't be trusted to file the complaint in a correct venue.

    Longer drive from Tampa to Charlotte county! ha!!
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    Im familiar with the set up, i havent fished the pass like that in years, if you were with rhett im guessing you couldnt find fish other than the pass that particular outing..

    Wrong again. We were in the pass because that's where Rhett fishes on the hill tides -- and he has for years. I have watched him do it since he got that big grey boat, and he's be so successful I decided to hire him. As I would expect you know, I'm sure he could find fish somewhere else, but there is no other bite anywhere short of the keys worm hatch that's as hot, and Rhett's no dummy when it comes to putting his clients on fish.
    Imo its foul hooked hands down. How that fish is hooked shows that if in fact the bait was inhaled (eaten) the hook went from inside of his mouth or belly region when the bait was eaten then spit back outside its mouth then gripping hold onto the cheek..

    Many factors play a roll in that pass when compared to beach and bay fishing which i now only do. Strong current, vertical fishing, large mass of fish, perhaps delayed awareness when a fish strikes 40' or more down. Those fish could have tried for the bait and very well been in its mouth but for a hook to wind up in that location means it was expelled from its mouth "if" it ate the bait.. Resulting in a foul hook up. Their also could be things going on under water in that mass of fish that increases chances of foul hooking them in the facial region..

    Wow, you sure know a lot about what "in fact" happened. Tell me, how do you know this?

    Because it seems to me that those fish, just like the thousand other ones I've caught on live bait over the years with that telltale thump -- most of them I've watched, literally seen with my own two eyes not 10' off the bow of my boat -- actually eat the bait.

    But getting past that, let's say for a moment all of what you content is true, don't you realize you've just opened the door to the same thing happening with the jig? Couldn't they "in fact" be eating the jig and then all of those mysterious things you contend result in the outside in hook placement?

    Anxiously awaiting your reply....Mike
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    Jirvin70 wrote: »
    Just noticed that the lawsuit was transferred out of Sarasota County to Charlotte County. I had questioned whether venue was proper in Sarasota, and obviously others had the same thoughts...

    More filing fees for the Plaintiff. It was a good attempt to find a judge with the least knowledge of the issues as possible but was subject to being dismissed outright if any of the defendants objected to venue. There is probably some discredit to the Plaintiff' and Plaintiff's emergency motion for an injunction given they can't be trusted to file the complaint in a correct venue.

    Thanks for the update.

    Tell me, who filed the motion to transfer (I would presume the defendant), or did the judge decide on his own?

    I know if I were the plaintiff's lawyer, I would want the arguments to be made as far away from local influence as possible. But maybe that's just the "untrustworthy" Mike talking. :)

    Again, thanks for the update....Mike
  • Captain SlayerCaptain Slayer Posts: 29 Greenhorn
    Tarponator, you didnt mention hill tide, when or anyother specifics, phil myslef and many others last season ended up in the pass due to very few fish after a sweep of the beach as we headed north, the fish would break out of the hole and head to the cans, we would get em then. thought maybe one of those days, my bad.. ( and hill tides arent always now the best bite in boca, not like they once were)
    I have a problem with the notion that an outside in hook set in any location is not foul hooking, the hook is designed to result with an inside out hook set anything else i personaly consider fouled, i never said you snagged it. your method of fishing often results in inside out hook sets. Im clearly open to the idea that their are unforseen things going on down deep. The act of jigging is entirly different as you know resulting in hooks ending up in many other locations, not just the clipper. Rapidly reeling the jig through a mass of fish i believe could snag them in that similar location explained by boyette And others. Im also not naive to the idea that at times they may attempt to eat a jig , Even though some can catch them with just a piece of lead and a hook..

    I didnt open the notion that strange things could happen under the water thats been there. If im so wrong about how your fish became hooked outside the mouth please enlighten me, if it ate your crab , which im sure it did your hook was in his mouth at some point wasnt it?
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    I once caught a flounder with my bare hands.

    No lie.
  • Captain SlayerCaptain Slayer Posts: 29 Greenhorn
    Is that considered noodling?? Lol
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 15,876 AG
    Tarponator, you didnt mention hill tide, when or anyother specifics, phil myslef and many others last season ended up in the pass due to very few fish after a sweep of the beach as we headed north, the fish would break out of the hole and head to the cans, we would get em then. thought maybe one of those days, my bad.. ( and hill tides arent always now the best bite in boca, not like they once were)

    No worries -- I really didn't want to get into specifics, lest I again be accused of boasting.

    I agree the hill tide has been going downhill for several years now (with a big uptick in 2010, when those photos were taken)...but if the hill tides aren't the best bite in Boca, what is?

    After dark goes off quite often, but it's not nearly as predictable. The beach can be hit or miss. I don't fish much up the harbor....and the only place I've been able to equal or surpass those numbers are the odd night under the bridges in Tampa.

    Obviously, you don't have to answer if you don't want, but I cannot fathom (nor have I heard of) a better, more consistent bite than that one.

    I have a problem with the notion that an outside in hook set in any location is not foul hooking, the hook is designed to result with an inside out hook set anything else i personaly consider fouled, i never said you snagged it. your method of fishing often results in inside out hook sets. Im clearly open to the idea that their are unforseen things going on down deep. The act of jigging is entirly different as you know resulting in hooks ending up in many other locations, not just the clipper. Rapidly reeling the jig through a mass of fish i believe could snag them in that similar location explained by boyette And others. Im also not naive to the idea that at times they may attempt to eat a jig , Even though some can catch them with just a piece of lead and a hook..

    I didnt open the notion that strange things could happen under the water thats been there. If im so wrong about how your fish became hooked outside the mouth please enlighten me, if it ate your crab , which im sure it did your hook was in his mouth at some point wasnt it?

    I would suspect so, because I felt the thump. But I could also envision a short strike, where the crab didn't make it all the way in the mouth, yet I felt the thump. What I don't believe for a second that I snagged those fish -- again because of that telltale thump. As I'm sure you know, it is quite a distinctive feeling, and in my experience (particularly under the bridges where I watch it happen) it is always the result of a tarpon slurping a slow-moving live bait.

    But really, and not unlike the jig, none of us really know how it happens down deep.

    Which is why I'm as skeptical as I am when someone tries to say in absolutes what is happening down there. Doesn't matter if it's you, Bly, Abu, Andy, Chuck, Phil, or Rhett. Until we see it, we are all guessing. As educated guesses as they might be, we don't know for sure (and I appreciate you acknowledging this in your post above :) ).

    But let me be clear, I do think that some people have figured out how to snag them. To be candid, I'm hoping that Chuck proves it. Yet I also believe people like Bly, Abu, and others, who contend that tarpon eat the jig. What I can't figure out is the relative percentage of both, and more to the point, if the jig should be banned because of its alleged use as a snagging device. If there's solid proof of it occurring, it would go a long way towards changing my mind on the topic, for whatever that's worth.

    But what you can't really question is the evidence I just showed -- evidence that outside in hook placement occurs with live bait. Unless you think I'm lying...in which case I suggest you call Rhett yourself and see.

    So as we consider if a tarpon is snagged or not, I hope you agree that hook placement (particularly clipper hooked outside-in) is not necessarily evidence of snagging.

    If not, that's OK too, we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

    Take care...Mike

    p.s. Who are you? If your not comfortable saying publicly, feel free to PM me. I'm curious.
  • Joey ButtonsJoey Buttons Posts: 11,849 AG
    I have hand fed tarpon off a dock before.

    No lie.
  • CalusaCalusa Posts: 11,881 Officer
    I once helped drag an adult porpoise 100 yards off a sand shoal. I kid you not. Swam away to his mate circling nearby.

    I would do the same for a jigger if need be.
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