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U.S. Healthcare - Dead Last Again

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  • BrewheddBrewhedd Posts: 1,096 Officer
    It doesn't take a genius to understandvthat price controls don't work. Quote the intent of the law all you want and ignorantly ignore the coming unintended consequences of governmental attempts at price controls...

    Price controls work well when applied to circumstances where the American people are subject to monopolies or getting **** through collusion or corruption. In the case of health care, insurance company profits increasing at over 50% in one year screams price control. Somewhere along the line it has been deemed acceptable for businesses to create the circumstances necessary to rip us off. Great example: Enron. Instead of our gov't protecting us from getting screwed they are a willing partner. "Deregulation" is nothing more than opening the door to someone sticking their hand in your wallet.
    Corruption is the enemy. Lobbyists and the FED have ruined the country.
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 22,184 AG
    Brewhedd wrote: »
    Price controls work well when applied to circumstances where the American people are subject to monopolies or getting **** through collusion or corruption. In the case of health care, insurance company profits increasing at over 50% in one year screams price control. Somewhere along the line it has been deemed acceptable for businesses to create the circumstances necessary to rip us off. Great example: Enron. Instead of our gov't protecting us from getting screwed they are a willing partner. "Deregulation" is nothing more than opening the door to someone sticking their hand in your wallet.

    Price controls never work.... give an example of it working. Government is the worst influence in the free market. It is government that empowers poor decisions and unnecessarily high prices and shortages and technology stifling behavior. There are no monopolies that are not CREATED by the government....more negative input into the free market.
  • gunby31gunby31 Posts: 5,777 Officer
    rickc wrote: »
    all I can say is I am glad the Republicans are no longer running the whole show

    sure they killed single payer. For the Democrats to pass any kind of health care reform they had to compromise

    even now republican filibusters and obstructionist practices are putting a monkey wrench in democrats plans

    but with the republican party in disarray and their policies in such disfavor my hope is after the next congressional election they will be completely irrelevant and we can get on with fixing this country.

    Amen.
  • BottombouncerBottombouncer Posts: 678 Officer
    Yeah, I'm sure that's not garbage put out there to help justify Oblamocare.... I have no problem paying for my family's healthcare. Why do you have a problem paying for yours?
  • BottombouncerBottombouncer Posts: 678 Officer
    US Laws drive our health care up over that of other countries by forced subsidization through a pharma protection racket.. We also live less healthy lifestyles.

    The infant mortality number is bogus

    LMAO...what gets me it the people citing infant mortality also support abortion!
  • BottombouncerBottombouncer Posts: 678 Officer
  • BottombouncerBottombouncer Posts: 678 Officer
    By adding 48 million people that are currently not insured how can they not get bigger? :huh

    Please avoid using logic. It's confuzing ;)
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    The same pinheads who run the TSA, Post Office, Homeland Security, EPA, Dept. of Energy, Dept of education and all the other out of control, over staffed, over funded, corrupt bureaucracies will now run your medical care. Freakin priceless!
    I can't wait to hear the *****'in and moanin coming from you sheep when all this bureaucracy and inefficiancy comes your way. You got what you wished for.
  • T HowardT Howard Posts: 1,658 Captain
    kahmad wrote: »
    Ok...now in order to make what we call an "argument" the next step would be proving that obamacare is in fact "price control." Then you would cite examples where similar "price controls" have failed. Finally you would prove that this situation is similar to those examples.

    You can't just state a completely arbitrary premise and back it up with some bull rhetoric like "it doesn't take a genius to know...." That's not arguing. That's what we call talking out of your ***, and thus far it's the only kind of talking I've seen you do.

    Wrong...AGAIN.lol

    http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/advocacy/topics/independent-payment-advisory-board.page
    Independent Payment Advisory Board
    One of the most controversial provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act was the establishment of an Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB). While some applaud the new advisory board as a mechanism for controlling health care costs outside the influence of political processes and pressures, others have criticized the scope of its authority and the lack of flexibility in its mandate. Because of these serious concerns, the American Medical Association opposes the IPAB and supports its repeal.

    The AMA continues to fight for the elimination of the Independent Payment Advisory Board, which will impose arbitrary across-the-board cuts to physicians and other providers.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    mustang190 wrote: »
    The same pinheads who run the TSA, Post Office, Homeland Security, EPA, Dept. of Energy, Dept of education and all the other out of control, over staffed, over funded, corrupt bureaucracies will now run your medical care. Freakin priceless!
    I can't wait to hear the *****'in and moanin coming from you sheep when all this bureaucracy and inefficiancy comes your way. You got what you wished for.

    Actually, no. The insurance companies are securely in control of your healthcare. The ACA insured (pun intended) that would occur. The Democrats caved on single payer for obvious reasons and took price controls and some other provisions in return.
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    brentsum wrote: »
    Actually, no. The insurance companies are securely in control of your healthcare. The ACA insured (pun intended) that would occur. The Democrats caved on single payer for obvious reasons and took price controls and some other provisions in return.

    No, I take care of my OWN health.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    mustang190 wrote: »
    No, I take care of my OWN health.

    Healthcare and taking care of ones self are two different things. If you get lung cancer will you give yourself chemotherapy? A thoracotomy? I think not. If this (lung cancer) happens you will use your healthcare insurance to pay for the treatments. If you do not have healthcare you will get the treatments and someone else will pay. A third option is that you are incredibly rich and can pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars it will cost for the treatments/surgeries. You could choose to do none of these, in which case you become food for earthworms quickly.
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 22,184 AG
    kahmad wrote: »
    Ok...now in order to make what we call an "argument" the next step would be proving that obamacare is in fact "price control." Then you would cite examples where similar "price controls" have failed. Finally you would prove that this situation is similar to those examples.

    You can't just state a completely arbitrary premise and back it up with some bull rhetoric like "it doesn't take a genius to know...." That's not arguing. That's what we call talking out of your ***, and thus far it's the only kind of talking I've seen you do.

    You support a change in policy that involves price controls as the premise of success... it would be incumbent on those that promote a policy to prove that it would work or has worked... Price controls simply do not matter. The free market will always undo governemental attempts to control prices or supplies.

    http://www.econreview.com/events/wageprice1971b.htm

    http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PriceControls.html

    http://illinois.edu/blog/view/1262/74302?count=1

    You cannot legislate price or supply.... and that is what any attempt a government takes that tries to do that. The free market will undo all efforts. Natural fact.
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 22,184 AG
    brentsum wrote: »
    Actually, no. The insurance companies are securely in control of your healthcare. The ACA insured (pun intended) that would occur. The Democrats caved on single payer for obvious reasons and took price controls and some other provisions in return.

    And you believe that a single payer system is not a form of price controls??
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    And you believe that a single payer system is not a form of price controls??

    I do believe it is a form of price control, and I'm not for it. I'm also not in favor of the price controls in the current ACA. I agree with the article posted by the AMA - that part of the bill needs reform. I agree with you that price controls rarely work. Price supports in agriculture maybe, but not price controls in general.

    BTW- if you go to the AMA website you will see that they generally are in favor of the ACA. They call it a "good first step", but advocate for many revisions - as do I.
  • mississippi macmississippi mac Posts: 4,222 Captain
    my shaman (who is also my friend) was b*tching the other day becuase his normal maintenance bill for his 4s 250 was$165....
    he said "dam, it didn't take him but just an hour"....

    i told him i'd do it for $125 and he bit*h that was robbery....
    i told him materials were $70 bucks....it's not like i'm beating him up....

    turn to.......
    mac
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    The Real White Dog

    if you can't catch a fish...catch a buzz....
    #12976, joined 8-17-2002
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 10,104 AG
    brentsum wrote: »
    Healthcare and taking care of ones self are two different things. If you get lung cancer will you give yourself chemotherapy? A thoracotomy? I think not. If this (lung cancer) happens you will use your healthcare insurance to pay for the treatments. If you do not have healthcare you will get the treatments and someone else will pay. A third option is that you are incredibly rich and can pay the hundreds of thousands of dollars it will cost for the treatments/surgeries. You could choose to do none of these, in which case you become food for earthworms quickly.

    Thats medical care.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    mustang190 wrote: »
    Thats medical care.

    Medical care is a very significant part of overall healthcare. Thank you for validating my point.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    brentsum wrote: »
    BTW- if you go to the AMA website you will see that they generally are in favor of the ACA. They call it a "good first step", but advocate for many revisions - as do I.

    The AMA is losing members rapidly (especially since they endorsed Obamacare), the only ones left are academics/researchers who get government grants.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    brentsum wrote: »
    If you get lung cancer will you give yourself chemotherapy? A thoracotomy? I think not. If this (lung cancer) happens you will use your healthcare insurance to pay for the treatments. If you do not have healthcare you will get the treatments and someone else will pay.

    Under the ACA he can just buy insurance after the diagnosis and through community rating he can have the same premium as everyone else.
    Only fools will participate if they are healthy, just pay the meager fine until you need care, then pay the jacked-up premium.

    "Someone else" will continue to pay.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    The AMA is losing members rapidly (especially since they endorsed Obamacare), the only ones left are academics/researchers who get government grants.

    Each of these advocacy and lobbying organizations are alive and healthy. Each continues to try to reform HC laws to get the maximum benefits for its members. AMA is all about getting physician reimbursements as high as possible - go figure?

    You have to consider that one point the AMA was the only game in town, now physicians have hundreds of organizations to choose from.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    Under the ACA he can just buy insurance after the diagnosis and through community rating he can have the same premium as everyone else.
    Only fools will participate if they are healthy, just pay the meager fine until you need care, then pay the jacked-up premium.

    "Someone else" will continue to pay.

    You are correct, a dishonest person with little concern for his community or country (let alone his fellow citizen) could take that approach. It helps the selfish individual and allows everyone else to pays his bills, just like the system before ACA worked for the uninsured.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    brentsum wrote: »
    Each of these advocacy and lobbying organizations are alive and healthy. Each continues to try to reform HC laws to get the maximum benefits for its members. AMA is all about getting physician reimbursements as high as possible - go figure?

    You have to consider that one point the AMA was the only game in town, now physicians have hundreds of organizations to choose from.

    Go to google - ten pages of articles about the AMA losing members. Only 17% of physicians were members to start with - all academics and researchers who depend on grants.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    brentsum wrote: »
    You are correct, a dishonest person with little concern for his community or country (let alone his fellow citizen) could take that approach. It helps the selfish individual and allows everyone else to pays his bills, just like the system before ACA worked for the uninsured.

    Welcome to America and choices.
    Pay $2,000 in fines or $12,000 in premiums for insurance you don't need, simple choice if you think about it.

    If you were as honest as you want others to be, you would already be sending 100% of your income to the feds so they could dispense it in everyone's best interest.
  • Big BatteryBig Battery Posts: 22,184 AG
    brentsum wrote: »
    You are correct, a dishonest person with little concern for his community or country (let alone his fellow citizen) could take that approach. It helps the selfish individual and allows everyone else to pays his bills, just like the system before ACA worked for the uninsured.

    Why is that dishonest? You expect human nature(the free market) to not follow the path of least resistance? This is constantly the problem with government attempts at price controls... they always fail.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    Go to google - ten pages of articles about the AMA losing members. Only 17% of physicians were members to start with - all academics and researchers who depend on grants.

    As I said, there are some many groups that advocate for physician subspecialties that the overall influence of any one group has been lessened. That is one of he issues with physicians having a voice now - they speak through hundreds of mouthpieces. ACOG, ACS, etc. each try to speak for their group of physicians and often are at odds with each other. It makes it easy for the insurance companies or the government to impose their will.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    brentsum wrote: »
    As I said, there are some many groups that advocate for physician subspecialties that the overall influence of any one group has been lessened. That is one of he issues with physicians having a voice now - they speak through hundreds of mouthpieces. ACOG, ACS, etc. each try to speak for their group of physicians and often are at odds with each other. It makes it easy for the insurance companies or the government to impose their will.

    You're the one touting the significance of the AMAs endorsement of Obamacare, it's not as significant as you think.
  • BrewheddBrewhedd Posts: 1,096 Officer

    If you were as honest as you want others to be, you would already be sending 100% of your income to the feds so they could dispense it in everyone's best interest.

    So, in your way of thinking, sending 100% of your income to the gov't makes you "honest"? Interesting logic.
    Corruption is the enemy. Lobbyists and the FED have ruined the country.
  • brentsumbrentsum Posts: 1,618 Captain
    If you were as honest as you want others to be, you would already be sending 100% of your income to the feds so they could dispense it in everyone's best interest.

    This is a ridiculous statement. In no way did I suggest that anything close to this. You are free to do as you please. If you do not want to carry healthcare insurance then someday I and everyone else will pay your bills.

    The old system was broke. The new ACA system is significantly flawed. It does however provide mechanisms to get more people covered and that is a good thing. My wife (an OBGYN) has already seen an uptick in pre-natal care of women in their early 20's do to the extension of benefits under the new law. This will yield significant savings to everyone in the system as issues are found and treated prior to them becoming catastrophic.
  • NewberryJeffNewberryJeff Posts: 7,447 Admiral
    Brewhedd wrote: »
    So, in your way of thinking, sending 100% of your income to the gov't makes you "honest"? Interesting logic.

    You said paying more than you should in the interest of the greater good is honorable, not me.

    Your lack of concern for the greater good concerns me comrade. When is Obama going to set up a hotline to report the selfish such as yourself?
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