First mass murder you remember?

[Skunk Ape]

Suicide by police.

Wrong,innocent women and children were murdered by our gov't. Our soldiers in Afghanistan have tougher engagement rules with the Taliban than the ATF has on our citizens.

[Gary S. Colecchio]

I do not disagree. The government is not known for its effective problem solving ability or delegating independent action to those with advanced local knowledge more capable of appropriate action.

In fact they can be counted upon for choosing the worst possible reaction to any situation requiring lethal force.

My review of the event indicates that law enforcement's ham handed reaction was clearly anticipated by Koresh as part of his plan to martyr himself and his cult.

Reading any of his work reveals his belief that the forces of Babylon would seek to destroy his "ministry " by fire, directly attributable to his all too literal interpretation and belief in the accuracy of the Book of Revelations . This was not a fear, but necessary to affirm his divine mission. He was very familiar with law enforcement procedures in hostage situations and needed only to establish a situation to replicate one to trigger the assault and maintain it by delay until he was ready to realize his fanatically inspired outcome.

Suicide by police was in his mind necessary and unavoidable. It is very sad that the responsibility for this act of madness and murder is laid at the feet of law enforcement, as incompetent as they were in hindsight, rather than where it truly should reside; with its designer. The responders are just as much the victims of Howell's madness as were his congregation, only they have to be tormented by their involvement for the rest of their lives.

To label them as murderers in any but the most abstract sense is cruelly unfair and ultimately inaccurate. You may as well hang that label on John the Evangel for giving him the idea.

[Big Battery]

Suicide by police.

Ruby Ridge?? BS

[Gary S. Colecchio]

Ruby Ridge?? BS

I can do Ruby Ridge too, if you feel you really need to argue the point.

[cpr]

I can do Ruby Ridge too, if you feel you really need to argue the point.

Don't bother a jury and a 3 million dollar government payout already covered most of it.

[Skunk Ape]

Randy Weavers young son was murdered in cold blood by federal agents,along with his wife and dog.

[sjm1582002]

I can do Ruby Ridge too, if you feel you really need to argue the point.

Did US Marshal Degan commit "suicide by an armed citizen who proved to be a much better shot"?

Or would that be a ludicrous depiction of the events, on a par with yours?

Why would the US government subsequently pay the individual who fatally shot US Marshal Degan over $375,000.00 after failing to convict him of any crime(s)?

[Gary S. Colecchio]

Don't bother a jury and a 3 million dollar government payout already covered most of it.

The jury was called to prosecute Harris for the death of Marshall Degan in the firefight at the trail along with Weaver as an accessory. There was insufficient evidence and enough confusion in the testimony on both sides to merit a conviction. The settlement of $100,000 to Weaver and $1M to each child on the ensuing civil suit reflected the confusion and malfeasance in preparing for and during the standoff and siege.

There was no charge of murder or malice of intent in their actions brought against any of the marshals or agents.

None of this , as in the Waco disaster would have been necessary had Weaver simply surrendered and went to court for a minor offence. However just like Waco, the Weavers, were fundamentalist Christian's holding similar apocalyptic views of a government seeking their personal destruction. Within which their correspondence clearly established them as dangerous to law enforcement to the point of suicidal and lead to the lethal use of force policy which in turn lead to Weaver's wife's death.

The Weavers were the victims of their own extremist religiosity, bigotry, and inflammatory rhetoric in defiance of judicial authority.

[sjm1582002]

There was no charge of murder or malice of intent in their actions brought against any of the marshals or agents.

Does getting indicted for involuntary manslaughter by the State of Idaho in the killing of Mrs Weaver put an end to your career with the FBI?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi

[Gary S. Colecchio]

Does getting indicted for involuntary manslaughter by the State of Idaho in the killing of Mrs Weaver put an end to your career with the FBI?

He is still alive and able to tell his side of the story.

This guy isn't though:

Timothy McVeigh worked at gun shows and handed out free cards printed up with Horiuchi's name and address, "in the hope that somebody in the Patriot movement would assassinate the sharpshooter". He wrote hate mail to the sniper, suggesting that "what goes around, comes around". McVeigh considered targeting Horiuchi, or a member of his family, before settling on a bombing attack on a federal building.

There may be one of those cards available on ebay if you are interested in seeking a similar justice.