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  1. #21
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    I bet 90% of all fishing trips have less than 4 hrs of "concentrated" fishing time...
    If I am in a kayak and I have to paddle more than fish and I am on the water for 7 hrs I guess that wasn't a fishing trip?
    It should be from the time you touch a rod till you put it back in the garage. And it shouldn't be qualified by time. The amount of time spent is worth noting because an overnight 36 hr event can't be put in the same category as a solid 4 hrs at sun-up.
    but the shorter trips most people do to "go fishing" shouldn't be discounted because of the amount of time spent with a line in the water.

  2. #22
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    Fris,

    Our "time spent fishing" is rounded to the nearest 15 minutes. That's 'Lines in' time. Most of my trips end up being between 2 and 3 hours. My wife doesn't get why I'm gone 10 hours to accomplish that 2-3 hours of true fishing, but it is what it is.

    But don't discount what Bobby is saying. I did see his program and it is clear he has a sharp mind and a goal. We just have a different approach.

    Tom,

    Call me. After work hours. Like I said, many groups want to see this program succeed. FWC loves the data and is using it with the snook stock assessment. We helped them get a more clear picture of how many snook there are, where they are, and how big they are. This was not in conflict with FWRI biologists, it was in concert with them. They are a huge part of why this program has been and will be a success. I know them and I trust them completely. If you don't agree that it is GOOD to have that accurate information then this program isn't for you, regardless of what third party groups you personally represent or loathe.

    The AAP is a SGF project. It is not a FWC project. Nor EDF, nor UF, nor FWRI, nor the National Wildlife Foundation, nor West Marine - but those are some of the groups that have seen the value in accurate data and have contributed in some way.

    I'd rather keep this thread on point. If you have questions about my integrity as a representative of recreational fishermen and women, like I said call me. Or let's meet for lunch or go fishing. My Master's degree is in Communication Sciences and Disorders, I know the pitfalls of relying of printed text to convey a message that might have multiple meanings and emotions. It's too easy to get angry at each other playing this game. Meet me face to face and let's have a real conversation. I'll drive to you if need be (if you live in Florida, that is). I'm sure we share very similar goals - that's where we should be starting a relationship. Otherwise we recreational anglers will never be able to accomplish anything.
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

  3. #23
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    Had I been selected to the Gulf Council Data collection panel, I would have proposed a concept where a sample of anglers were randomly selected for a long term sampling program. They would be paid some nominal (maybe $10/submission) amount for participation and in return, would have to agree to inspection and confirmation that they documented every trip. Penalty for noncompliance would be loss of financial reward and exclusion from program. From what I saw at the Council meeting in Feb, they can't decide what they want the panel to do and may end up **** canning the whole exercise.

    Actually all this may be overcome by events. Comments from NMFS at the Feb meeting indicate that MRIP, at least for red snapper, is close to MRFSS and therefore must be good enough except for the slow response time. This brings us to the conclusion that using the present data collection and assessment methods, the best we can ever hope for is a snapper season of 80 days or less.

    What they have not figured out is that phenominal increase in catch per unit effort can only be achieved by a very large standing crop of snapper in the northern gulf. Maybe 10x what they are using in the current stock assessments. What could have possibly happened to permit such a huge increase in biomass? Likely answer, the deployment of 10s of thousands of artificial reef materials in locations where no reef material, artificial or natural previously existed. A single small reef the size of a chicken transfer cage by serving as a refuge, will allow hundreds of pounds of snapper to exploit prey from acres of productive sand/shell bottom.

  4. #24
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    It's too bad that you are getting into bed with EDF on this project - it REALLY taints it to the point that not many will want to participate I'm afraid.

    And...it doesn't help things when you fail to have full disclosure about that up front with us, not to mention you continually refusing to answer pertinent questions posed regarding the extent of their involvement.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

  5. #25
    Moderator Got TA Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hilton View Post
    It's too bad that you are getting into bed with EDF on this project - it REALLY taints it to the point that not many will want to participate I'm afraid.

    And...it doesn't help things when you fail to have full disclosure about that up front with us, not to mention you continually refusing to answer pertinent questions posed regarding the extent of their involvement.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
    Brett... I have to admit, not telling the public, at a minimum the public in here (Confron), where your funding is coming from casts a dark cloud. I'm sure over the past year or so you've seen how we always try to discover who is backing what actions and who is throwing money at it.

    EDF, PEW, Walmart, etc.... are at the top of most lists that are doing the most harm to rec and comm anglers.

    I myself would have to wonder, if EDF had called me (they have my number on their caller ID) to throw money at a study I was doing...I'd have to wonder why. Do they have the fishing public's best interest at heart? History would say "No, they found a way to make a buck off it. And chances are, Walmart will be involved."

    I've been tagging dolphin for years, for Don Hammond, when the project first started while he was at SCDNR. I even supported his efforts when he decided to continue his work after retiring and he started his own company. I was one of his top taggers for years. Right up and until he showed up at a SAFMC mtg with his data and presented it to them to be used as a "management tool". While not his intent, data can be interpreted however you want it.

    Don's program started out as a science project for the SCDNR...now it's a business...and I haven't stuck a tag in 2 years, but have released a lot of dolphin in that 2 year period. I will still provide him with scientific based data, but I find it hard to feed the fire used to burn me.

    When EDF and PEW set their sights on Dolphin/Wahoo...don't think for a minute they won't be willing to "fund" his project. And he too will take the money.

    How many scientist do we see that worked for NOAA, Gulf Council, SAFMC, etc.... That now are sucking off the EDF teat to push their agenda.

    Rob
    Largest Private Charter Vessel in the Lower Keys
    www.easyridercharterskeywest.com

    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.

  6. #26
    Senior Member CaptBobBryant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisbee View Post
    Damn! 4 hrs! Does that count from the time you get a line in the water or from the time you take your shower, or do i get to add car drive time, what about boat drive time? if I fill up with gas on the way there does that count as "fishing time"...what if I sit my far *** in a beach chair and watch the talent walk by till i get a bit e on one of my four poles? Any idea if I count cleaning the fish as part of fishing..what about the drive back to the dock? If I get seatow to tow me back in do i count that as fishing time? If I am drinking do I count it as half-time or double time?
    I don't really like fishing for 4 damn hrs. One of the biggest mistakes od the BASS tournaments (all tournaments really) is that they allow you to fish for so long. it ain't a job...it is something to do for fun.
    Four hours? So if I live in Orlando and it talkes me 2hrs to get my boat in the water, and I have a line in the water for 1 second, and then drive back to Orlando for a total of 4+ hrs I was fishing. But id I hop in the truck, drive three blocks, fish for three hrs and am home in 3hrs and 20 minutes I wasn' fishing?
    Get a grip. Hitting it just right for an hr as the sun disappears is much more fishing than going out during the middle of the day for 5 hours with your main Squeeze to sit on the beach and bake while you have lines in the water and a budwiser in your hand.

    Fishing isn't a timed event.
    The time is usually form the time you you leave the access point...a boat ramp or your house....until you return.

    My point was multiple trips form the kitchen to the dock do not count as multiple trips....

  7. #27
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    Rob,
    The most recent version of our online data collection program was developed by a grant provided by the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation.

    I gotta be honest, when I start reading those kinds of posts and threads that get into who is funding who, why so and so is dirty, etc... my eyes glaze over. I understand conceptually what the issue is, but those threads don't accomplish much in my world. Maybe when I retire and have more time I'll play along but right now I have to work with function. I do very much appreciate your approach to this topic and your points are well taken. I didn't realize I needed to provide that kind of thing up front. We've been around for 14 years (me personally just about 5), and have a track record that speaks for itself, or so I thought.


    I did not mention earlier our connection with isnapper. This latest version will look familiar to those folks that use isnapper because they also are involved with this.

    Rob I personally look at it this way: What we are collecting is accurate, truthful data. So far we've accomplished that to a degree that i feel very comfortable with. If someone were to try to use the truth to beat me over the head, I'd rather that than some anecdotal nonsense, or data coming from a group with a single interest. Does that make sense?

    There is no way to view this program as anything other than a very good thing for recreational anglers. I believe most will see it the same way, if not now then later when it is used to our benefit. I certainly don't get offended by anyone being fearful, I suppose I would be as well if I weren't involved from the ground floor. I would just urge you to take the time to go to our site, use the 'search' function and research as much as you would like about the program. We've been talking about it a lot since the get-go.

    Bottom line is, this was originated by recreational anglers, it is manned by recreational anglers, and it will serve recreational anglers. The more people that use it, the better.
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

  8. #28
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    Brett,
    The more I read what you say, the more I am convinced that you do NOT have the best interests of recreational anglers in mind but simply see an opportunity to make a buck.

    I contacted the people with iSnapper and asked them the exact same questions that I asked you - guess what? I had a straightforward, honest answer back inside of 20 minutes of my email, unlike the continued avoidance I have experienced with you. They also intimated that they have no affiliation with your organization other than giving you advice on developing your program.

    And, it has been my experience that when you ask someone on a public forum and then they say; "Let's discuss this in private...", that undoubtably points to something that person wishes to conceal.

    Just answer the questions if you have nothing to hide.

    I will ask you one last time;

    What is the extent of EDF's involvement?

    Funding? If so - how much?

    "Consultants"? If so, who are they?


    If you again choose not to anser, that's fine - it's then clear that you have something to hide.

    Lastly - you claim that you are collecting accurate and truthful data. How can you claim that when there is no mechanism to validate that data? Your system relies on the honor system Sir.

    Also, you state; "There is no way to view this program as anything other than a very good thing for recreational anglers." That is obviously false, inaccurate, and nontruthful in itself, as I for one, certainly view it that way based on your actions/statements, so there obviously IS a way.

    Without accurate assessments to determine the size of the biomass, simply providing harvest data is in no way a guarantee that it will be a good thing for recreational anglers - that much is crystal clear, especially when considering how the federal fisheries managers have cherry-picked which data they choose to use and as importantly, NOT to use.

    Your system could provide them with even MORE ammunition to shut us out of our fisheries.

    Until the NMFS itself is reformed, and required to do its job for the American citizens instead of enviro.orgs, it really doesn't matter what "plan" is presented to them, as they ultimately have the final say in how it is "interpreted".

    That's what needs to be changed.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
    Last edited by Tom Hilton; 04-04-2012 at 11:44 PM.

  9. #29
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    Morning Tom,

    ...And, it has been my experience ...
    Your experiences on this public forum are exactly why I asked you to call me privately. I have read plenty of your posts and they don't do much for me.

    I'm about getting involved with things that accomplish something useful. Either get on board or don't, that's your choice.

    Down the line when recreational anglers can stand up and provide information that supports our position, I promise I won't come back and say "I told you so."

    Go fishing, relax. Take your blood pressure meds.

    Then log your fishing trip at www.angleraction.org - THEN you will be doing something for your fellow recreational anglers.

    Right now, so far as I know, you do nothing for us.
    Last edited by brettfitz; 04-05-2012 at 06:32 AM.
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

  10. #30
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    The question about valid data is a good one though.

    Like I posted earlier in the thread, honest, accurate data is what we are interested in. Outliars are pretty easy to spot. Those people are contacted directly, either by me or another of our volunteers. Usually those entries are the result of a new poster not understanding what we are looking for. A chance to talk to them directly pretty much straightens them out.

    Any fisheries dependent data that is not a direct fish count by scientists on the boat relies on angler information. Dock surveys, phone calls, all that stuff. You don't have to worry about what anyone else is posting so long as what you enter is accurate and truthful. That is why we offer boat forms where you can tally your time fishing, and your fish data. If you want a plastic card that can be written on with dry-erase to make it even easier, PM me and I'll have one mailed to you. We are always looking for ways to improve the on-the-boat data recording, so if you have suggestions we're all ears. The upcoming phone apps will be a big help for some I think.

    So far our data matches what FWC thought it would in many regards, which is one of the reasons they loved it so much and asked us to expand our species list. Our "zero catch" percentage for snook was right in there - 15-18% I don't recall exactly at the moment. We were able to trend fishing activity across counties, coasts, etc. I'm telling ya, the data is sexy and regardless of what a few close minded individuals might think, this is going to be the best thing we can do to help ourselves.

    Keep in mind that we do presentations to clubs and such, which is a great venue for people to ask questions about the Foundation and the AAP.
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

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