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  1. #61
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    Brett,
    It will have to be lunch until after the chemo for the stuff on my face is concluded (about another month).
    The point that I was trying to make is that your work is laudable and I would hate to see your efforts frustrated because of bad associations. The EDF of 10 years ago is not the EDF of today. David Festa changed all that. You want folks to buy into your program,and I hope they will, but I promise you that when it is learned that EDF is somehow involved there will be a high level of distrust. You do not need the baggage.
    When the WPBFC turned down the EDF money it was literally living hand to mouth. By sticking to its principles and putting on some great tournaments and other events it is doing much better now. The EDF money was tempting but tainted. Get rid of the SOB's. When we "do lunch" I'll give you several examples of their duplicities and deceit. Chester Brewer

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarponator View Post
    I understood your position long ago, just like I understand why you refuse to answer the questions I posed.

    I believe the reason is because you have just as much self-interest as those you condemn, and admitting that would show the hypocrisy in your position.

    So, instead of answering my questions -- all the while while demanding your own are answered -- you continue to demean me and call me names. And now you want to take your ball and go home, which is something I'd expect from my six year old nephew, not a grown man who is so quick to publicly demonize others for self-interest they are also guilty of.

    I cannot say I am surprised, but I am disappointed....Mike
    The purpose of this thread is to discuss a "new, improved data system" - not how Tom Hilton makes a living.

    And, if the development of that "new improved data system" is associated with an extreme anti-fishing group providing funding for that project, then there are pertinent questions that should be answered regarding that. The questions about EDF's involvement have not been answered for some inexplicable reason.

    If their goal supposedly is to provide "honest, truthful data" in this age of dishonest, untruthful data that we are getting from the NMFS, then it would seem logical that they would support a transparent process that would be open to all interested parties. They support a process cloaked in secrecy, not "open, honest, truthful data" as advertised, which is exactly what we DO NOT NEED in our fisheries management.

    I have answered your questions, and have not continued to call you names or demean you Amigo.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

  3. #63
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    "...how data on fish dynamics could benefit habitat protection..."

    No, you missed my point entirely - you are unjustly comparing yourself to a successful program based on an entirely different paradigm, which PROVIDED HABITAT, and participation/harvest data by the people in charge of managing that wildlife - not some get-rich-quick scheme that it seems you have cooked up.

    Your statement suggests "protecting habitat" as in Marine Protection Areas I suppose - typical. Providing millions of acres of new habitat is not the same as fencing off areas to "protect" the fish from fishermen, or creating sectors to keep fishermen from accessing the fishery as your partners at EDF are attempting to do.

    Data on fish dynamics could also just as easily be used AGAINST fishermen, no? After all, your enviro partners like to claim that artificial reefs/oil platforms simply "attract" fish, making them easier to catch, thus supposedly providing a negative net effect to the fishery. If the harvest data from your program shows an inordinate amount of fish being harvested off of the artificial reefs/platforms, that could be used to close off those areas, no? Nevermind that they don't have adequate data on the size of the fishery biomass in order to make an informed analysis since they don't count the fish swimming in the water around artificial reefs / oil platforms.

    You have shown your true colors here - green - as in the $$$$$ .

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

  4. #64
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    As a member of the recreational data AP and because of the ties to EDF, I won't be recommending this program. Tom has done his homework and knows his stuff. I've been reading through it for years. The lack of direct answers to his questions speak volumes!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #65
    Senior Member Capt Blood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hilton View Post
    "
    Data on fish dynamics could also just as easily be used AGAINST fishermen, no?
    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
    This sounds like cherry picking Capt - to say data should be withheld because it might not get us what we want is.......well, wrong. Firm believer here that if we focus on the resource that puts food on my famiily's dinner table and great sport for us, that's what it's all about.

    Gotta ask Capt - where do you live? Cause if it ain't Florida where we lose mangroves and coastal wetlands to McMansions by the Sea all the time - me, thinks you overreacted to brettfitz intent of habitat protection. The loss of coastal habitat in FL over my 25yrs of fishing has been painful to see. Me thinks you owe someone an apology...

    BTW - got the spreadsheet, will give it to some of the good'uns I've come to trust over the years in this stock assessment stuff - get their input and layman's explanation that I can understand whether it adds up. Thanks for sending over.
    "...forced to become a pirate not for infamy and riches, but out of a rankling sense of injustice by the government leaders who have forsaken him..." -Rafael Sabatini-

  6. #66
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    Aces,

    I suggest to you and everyone, do your own research. Allowing a keyboard cowboy dictate your thoughts might lead you down a path where you don't desire to be.

    Try as I might to avoid it, I find myself finding points that I agree with Capt. Tom Hilton on. Unfortunately he and I are not going to agree on some issues and that's fine.

    Recreational anglers are getting the short end of the stick, I think we all agree with that. I think we also agree that the biggest excuse we have heard for that truth is that we "don't have data" to back our position.

    The AAP will collect true, real time data. And it will succeed, it's just too important not to.

    Several folks have taken advantage of my phone number or email and contacted me. I've have some great conversations, learned many things as a result of this thread. That's what having an open mind is all about, and that is how we will eventually succeed. Chester is a great example of an open mind - he took time to learn things on his own and although we might end up having some philosophical differences, he sees value in things that might be outside his personal zone of comfort. He is the kind of person who will help us anglers the most, I believe.

    As was demonstrated a few posts earlier, you only have to research our own website to see who we have talked to. It is no secret. If I want to learn about who someone is, I'll ask THEM what they are all about otherwise I won't ever know the entire picture. Obviously you must listen with an open mind, which means you make your own judgements and decide what you think requires further research etc. But avoiding someone because you don't agree with what you've heard about them is just does not make sense to me.

    The validity of the data we collect, you will come to find out, will be very powerful. It will give us a collective voice we've never had, and we will all benefit. Whether you believe it or not, it will happen - it already is.

    As I typed earlier, the danger of these forums is not being able to impact how someone interprets your keystrokes. That is the reason I offer myself at a personal level. Understand what we are trying to do before you denounce it. If we don't agree, more power to you and I trust you will keep fighting the good fight from your personal perspective. It's all good to me.

    And since the idea was brought up that this is all about making money, again feel free to research our org. The cliff note version of where our money goes is this: Our director gets paid $1 per year. There are a couple part time hourly people that keep the lights on. The rest of us have been doing this because we believe in the overall mission of education, conservation, and research. Will we grow? I sure hope so. Will we be able to put some of us into a position where they can work on it full time? Again I sure hope so. Will it be me? Again I sure hope so. Time will tell. We've accomplished a lot with very little, and it is just beginning to get good.

    Brett
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

  7. #67
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    Hey Brett,
    What's your position on Catch Shares?

    Sector Separation?

    Days At Sea?

    Thanks in advance,

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

    Hey Tarponator, your buddy is calling me names - you gonna call him out on it?
    Last edited by Tom Hilton; 04-07-2012 at 01:47 PM.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Capt Blood's Avatar
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    I like your style Brettfitz, good on ya mate.

    Liked what I heard about your group in this piece too - keep up the good work protecting our coastal habitat.

    "...But did you know according to The Snook Foundation, “Lee County has led the state in snook stamps. In the recent past (they) figured the value of snook fishing by stamp holders to be worth almost $600 million for Lee and Charlotte Counties...”

    Guest opinion: Baseball sentimentalism neglects offseason tourism
    Naples Daily News

    Seduced by the romance of Red Sox baseball, we have fallen into a financial trap that is going to be difficult, if not impossible, to escape. A baseball game in the spring makes a fun, even sentimental, day. But there is a business side that cannot and must not be obscured by sentimentality.

    Simply put, we have overspent satisfying the lavish demands of the Red Sox, thereby impairing our ability to meet the basic mission of our tourism development effort: fund programs that would level the too seasonal character of tourism here. We now have little choice but to continue to spend limited “tourist tax” dollars on baseball while either: neglecting offseason promotion, reducing beach re-nourishment programs, devoting even more general tax revenues to tourism promotion or raising the “tourist tax” — creating a price disadvantage for local businesses.

    None of these choices are good business.

    The “boom or bust” nature of excessively seasonal tourism makes it very hard for a tourism-dependent business to make it through the long, hot summers. Excessive public investment in baseball during the height of “the season” now threatens the availability of funds to promote “offseason” tourism.

    We know baseball brings in money. Otherwise billionaires wouldn’t buy baseball teams and players would not become millionaires – yet their playground is built on the backs of the little guy. Even if spring training does heighten high season, it does nothing to level the offseasons or help struggling merchants make it through the rest of the year.

    Yet here is an eye opener. A recent study shows the two baseball teams bring in $50 million annually. But did you know according to The Snook Foundation, “Lee County has led the state in snook stamps. In the recent past (they) figured the value of snook fishing by stamp holders to be worth almost $600 million for Lee and Charlotte Counties.”

    That’s just for snook.

    What if we had spent $84 million not on a stadium but on watershed improvement programs around Estero Bay – similar to Fort Myers’ Billy Creek Filter Marsh, which drastically cuts down on contaminates pouring into the Caloosahatchee? We could have done a lot of restoration. Ernest Hemingway wrote how he imagined walking across Estero Bay on the backs of tarpon because there were so many. What if we were to make a serious commitment to cleaning up the bay? Returning it to its natural status as a fish hatchery and nursery would make Estero Bay an economic engine that would rival the beaches themselves – year round for fishermen.

    Alas, overlooking the financial realities and forgetting the primary mission of our tourism development efforts, our political leaders pursued the Red Sox too aggressively to the risk of financial prudence.

    Because we lavishly met the Red Sox’ every demand, we must now fund comparable facilities for the Twins, whose fans generate nearly identical “in season” economic impacts. Even then we end up with three stadiums and only two teams. In an attempt to get another team to fill our excess stadium capacity, Lee County is now negotiating with the Washington Nationals. Meeting even reasonable demands will stretch our “tourist tax” dollars past the breaking point, threatening “offseason” promotions. Failing to do so will leave the city of Fort Myers holding a lot of stadium debt without any of the benefits.

    We got into this dilemma by acting impetuously for sentimental reasons. Enjoy a day at the ballpark, but try not to let a little fun obscure the mistakes we have made and refuse to admit. We will now pay dearly for such impetuosity, sentimentality and missed opportunities.

    http://www.news-press.com/article/20...season-tourism
    Warren Wright of Fort Myers is a member of the Lee County Tourism Development Council and a former Fort Myers City Council member.
    "...forced to become a pirate not for infamy and riches, but out of a rankling sense of injustice by the government leaders who have forsaken him..." -Rafael Sabatini-

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettfitz View Post
    Aces,

    I suggest to you and everyone, do your own research. Allowing a keyboard cowboy dictate your thoughts might lead you down a path where you don't desire to be.

    Try as I might to avoid it, I find myself finding points that I agree with Capt. Tom Hilton on. Unfortunately he and I are not going to agree on some issues and that's fine.

    Recreational anglers are getting the short end of the stick, I think we all agree with that. I think we also agree that the biggest excuse we have heard for that truth is that we "don't have data" to back our position.

    The AAP will collect true, real time data. And it will succeed, it's just too important not to.

    Several folks have taken advantage of my phone number or email and contacted me. I've have some great conversations, learned many things as a result of this thread. That's what having an open mind is all about, and that is how we will eventually succeed. Chester is a great example of an open mind - he took time to learn things on his own and although we might end up having some philosophical differences, he sees value in things that might be outside his personal zone of comfort. He is the kind of person who will help us anglers the most, I believe.

    As was demonstrated a few posts earlier, you only have to research our own website to see who we have talked to. It is no secret. If I want to learn about who someone is, I'll ask THEM what they are all about otherwise I won't ever know the entire picture. Obviously you must listen with an open mind, which means you make your own judgements and decide what you think requires further research etc. But avoiding someone because you don't agree with what you've heard about them is just does not make sense to me.

    The validity of the data we collect, you will come to find out, will be very powerful. It will give us a collective voice we've never had, and we will all benefit. Whether you believe it or not, it will happen - it already is.

    As I typed earlier, the danger of these forums is not being able to impact how someone interprets your keystrokes. That is the reason I offer myself at a personal level. Understand what we are trying to do before you denounce it. If we don't agree, more power to you and I trust you will keep fighting the good fight from your personal perspective. It's all good to me.

    And since the idea was brought up that this is all about making money, again feel free to research our org. The cliff note version of where our money goes is this: Our director gets paid $1 per year. There are a couple part time hourly people that keep the lights on. The rest of us have been doing this because we believe in the overall mission of education, conservation, and research. Will we grow? I sure hope so. Will we be able to put some of us into a position where they can work on it full time? Again I sure hope so. Will it be me? Again I sure hope so. Time will tell. We've accomplished a lot with very little, and it is just beginning to get good.

    Brett
    Hey Brett,
    As you probably know, I have been clamoring for better data on the rec side probably louder than most - I don't have an issue with better data at all. I do have an issue with anything that Environmental Defense has its fingers into, as I have yet to see anything positive come from it as far as recreational fishing goes. EDF has way too long of a history of saying one thing, then doing another - they are untrustworthy, dishonest, and greedy, to put it bluntly, and to reiterate what Chester has said about them.

    You keep mentioning needing to have an "open mind" about this. Why is that? Better data should clear up a LOT of misconceptions, distrust, etc., and should open up peoples' minds on its own merit - dissenters and all. It has been the glaring lack of data that has spawned the overwhelming sentiments of distrust from recreational anglers towards the federal fisheries managers and their NGO partners.

    We need to keep an "open mind" because you are doing this project with some unsavory characters (EDF)?

    If not, then why do you feel the need, specifically, to keep mentioning the necessity for an "open mind"?

    Also, you encourage people (including me) to contact you on a "personal level" to discuss your project. I maintain that one of the main reasons for forums such as this is to discuss our points of view, openly, in a public venue and IN WRITING. Refusing to answer pertinent questions about your project when asked repeatedly and preferring to discuss "verbally" and not in writing just doesn't pass the smell test, I'm sorry. Especially when you take into account that we had to not only pull the truth out of you regarding you affiliation with EDF, but your continued refusal to provide details of that affiliation other than they are giving you an unspecified amount of $$$$ .

    My mind is open - please explain.

    Thanks in advance,
    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
    Last edited by Tom Hilton; 04-07-2012 at 07:12 PM.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Capt Blood's Avatar
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    Capt H, it's Easter, give it a break already. We got it, you've got a beef with EDF, roger that. Now give it a rest.

    Last I read this was FLORIDA Sportsman. From what i've gathered looking at your posts, you're from somewhere west where rig fishin is the thing. We've got alot of other problems we're dealing with here and while I'm a patient man, it's reached an end.

    Go to church, think about our Lord and what Easter means....
    "...forced to become a pirate not for infamy and riches, but out of a rankling sense of injustice by the government leaders who have forsaken him..." -Rafael Sabatini-

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