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  1. #31
    Senior Member CaptBobBryant's Avatar
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    Brett...

    I would like to see the raw data sets, so that I could develop some statistics and maybe do some cross referencing against other data sets....
    If your system works at collecting data and as a self reporting system provides the level of needed to make various statistical efforts, then I can shelve my data collection project (no need to reinvent the wheel or duplicate effort)

    I am trying to make a calculation bridge the gap between what different reports are actually saying about participants and effort.

  2. #32
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    Bob,
    Excel files OK with you? I'll get them to you when I get home from work today.

    Thanks for taking an interest. I look forward to your feedback on the layouts and any other points you have.

    Brett
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettfitz View Post
    Morning Tom,

    Your experiences on this public forum are exactly why I asked you to call me privately. I have read plenty of your posts and they don't do much for me.
    I'm about getting involved with things that accomplish something useful. Either get on board or don't, that's your choice.
    Down the line when recreational anglers can stand up and provide information that supports our position, I promise I won't come back and say "I told you so."
    Go fishing, relax. Take your blood pressure meds.
    Then log your fishing trip at www.angleraction.org - THEN you will be doing something for your fellow recreational anglers.
    Right now, so far as I know, you do nothing for us.
    Yeah, most EDF-affiliated people don't like it either when they are outed that they are simply a front for another enviro-funded scheme supposedly done in the name of conservation but in reality it's either about control or profits.

    Don't tell me that I am doing nothing for my fellow recreational anglers you pompous *** - I have done my fair share, and more.

    Beware of false prophets working for enviro profits - Brettfitz' continued refusal to lay out the extent of EDF's involvement is damning.

    Beware of anyone claiming to provide "honest, accurate data" when they adamently refuse to provide "honest, accurate data" about themselves.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton

  4. #34
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    Good stuff there Capt. Hilton.

    My point was simply that I don't know you from Adam. I'm glad you are working on my behalf, as I am on yours.

    My offer to meet you and get to know you is open, let me know when you change your mind.

    Why don't you go ahead and call the office? the number is on our site, www.snookfoundation.org. That is what I'd have to do to find out the specific answers to your questions. I don't deal with money.

    Best of luck to you in your endeavors.

    Brett Fitzgerald
    561-707-8923
    brett@snookfoundation.org
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

  5. #35
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    Brettfitz,

    Anything I have to say to you can be said right here - no need to discuss privately. As you said - I don't know you from Adam.

    You claim to provide "honest, accurate data", yet, when asked to do so in a public venue, you are somehow unable or unwilling to provide "honest, accurate data" about your operation and defer it elsewhere. This is typical of other EDF-funded people that I have asked questions of in the past - most notably the pro-catch share/sector separation group here in the Gulf, as they sure talk a big game but somehow become mute when asked for details about how their plan could possibly work.

    Could it be that Environmental Defense owns a stake in your operation?

  6. #36
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    Hey
    In reference to Tom's quote "you claim that you are collecting accurate and truthful data. How can you claim that when there is no mechanism to validate that data? Your system relies on the honor system Sir. "

    All fishery dependent data relies on the honor system, whether it be the dockside sampler or iSnapper or a cell phone. iSnapper relies on the fisherman to hail in/out and report each and every fish they catch and release, with no validation. Any other type of self reported data system is basically the same, that is unless you have some sort of tamper proof camera or VMS onboard.

    Dockside data relies on the fisherman to report accurately. Here in FL, we get asked how many fish we released. After a 12 hour day on the water, I must admit, I can't always remember where the hell I parked my truck, much less how many of which species I released. Granted, I should keep a log, my bad. The good news, in my opinion, is I believe most anglers to report their info honestly. Despite the rampant media laden rumors that we're out here raping and pillaging.

    So, harping on a data system that relies on the honor system is a valid point, but at least this dude is doing something. How many data collection programs do you have working out there?

    iSnapper a good idea, but will never work for the entire fishery, it may work for a small population of fisherman, which may be good enough for comparing the Fed's data too or possibly used to augment it. The real reason it won't work is you can't require everyone on the water to go out and buy a smart phone and buy the app. Talk about government intrusion, being forced to buy a phone (which can be tracked) and buy an app and buy a license and on and on and on. Talk about validation problems, do you actually think every person on every trip for every fish is going to be able to 1) afford it, 2) want it, 3) use it?

    I agree we need a much better system, let's face it a waaaay better data collection system. But realistically, the Feds are only going to require some sort of validation.

    Brett, what of your data was used by Florida? I'm curious.

    On NGO involvement, concerning, of course, but my question is who 'owns' the data and is that data public. If an NGO funded a program where they were the proprietors of the data, then I would be very concerned, but if, same Brett is the owner and he can choose who he gives the data too, then my concern is negligible.

  7. #37
    Senior Member CaptBobBryant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrippleTailIV View Post
    Hey
    In reference to Tom's quote "you claim that you are collecting accurate and truthful data. How can you claim that when there is no mechanism to validate that data? Your system relies on the honor system Sir. "

    All fishery dependent data relies on the honor system, whether it be the dockside sampler or iSnapper or a cell phone. iSnapper relies on the fisherman to hail in/out and report each and every fish they catch and release, with no validation. Any other type of self reported data system is basically the same, that is unless you have some sort of tamper proof camera or VMS onboard.

    Dockside data relies on the fisherman to report accurately. Here in FL, we get asked how many fish we released. After a 12 hour day on the water, I must admit, I can't always remember where the hell I parked my truck, much less how many of which species I released. Granted, I should keep a log, my bad. The good news, in my opinion, is I believe most anglers to report their info honestly. Despite the rampant media laden rumors that we're out here raping and pillaging.

    So, harping on a data system that relies on the honor system is a valid point, but at least this dude is doing something. How many data collection programs do you have working out there?

    iSnapper a good idea, but will never work for the entire fishery, it may work for a small population of fisherman, which may be good enough for comparing the Fed's data too or possibly used to augment it. The real reason it won't work is you can't require everyone on the water to go out and buy a smart phone and buy the app. Talk about government intrusion, being forced to buy a phone (which can be tracked) and buy an app and buy a license and on and on and on. Talk about validation problems, do you actually think every person on every trip for every fish is going to be able to 1) afford it, 2) want it, 3) use it?

    I agree we need a much better system, let's face it a waaaay better data collection system. But realistically, the Feds are only going to require some sort of validation.

    Brett, what of your data was used by Florida? I'm curious.

    On NGO involvement, concerning, of course, but my question is who 'owns' the data and is that data public. If an NGO funded a program where they were the proprietors of the data, then I would be very concerned, but if, same Brett is the owner and he can choose who he gives the data too, then my concern is negligible.
    To all those who question the "Honor" system.....
    Is not the CHTS an honor system....you get an anonymous call in the evening and someone starts asking you questions about your fishing for the past 2 months. The data taker does not know if you are being truthful or not....it relies on the integrity of the responder.

    The same is true for the "random" ramp creel survey. The person conducting the interview only knows as truth, what he is allowed to see and observe, but most of the interview involves your recollection of the day and your truthfulness.

    I recall a survey out of LA in 2003 I think that almost caused a shut down of AJ in the GOM..yes a single survey...
    The guy came to the ramp with something like 2 nice AJ, but the interviewer ask him about the whole trip and the guy said, that they caught a released like a couple hundred that day....the interviewer recorded the information (without question) and it was not caught until almost too late....even the QC of the data in Silver Springs did not question it...

    When I saw that number I just said I wanted to see the arms of a guy who says he caught 10 big AJ in a day let alone a hundred or so....

    So even today with MRFSS/MRIPS a guy can come in with a couple grouper and say yeah we were slaying them out there and caught and released 20 or 30, when in fact it was more like 5.....

    The point of this rambling is at some point we must rely on the angler in any self reporting system (which is the only way we will get timely accurate data) and use statistical tools, to weed out the outliers, it is done everyday and I know for me at least; I can spot a outlier really quick.

  8. #38
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    Trippletail,
    Good points.

    I went fishing a while back with Dr. Bob Shipp, Doug Olander, and Jeff Pierce of Mustad with a captain out of Venice, La. We were getting things ready that morning and the captain asked if we had our Louisiana fishing licenses, which none of us did. He threw us a 1-800 number, which we called, and got everyone taken care of in short order. We received a confirmation number for each of us so that in case a LEO checked us out there, he could see we were legal for that day.

    No need to purchase a smart phone or app - this was required by the state so the state provided the venue to do this. I proposed a similar concept with the OFS Permit Plan (Offshore Fish Species) modeled after the existing federal HMS Permit (Highly Migratory Species) - the federal venue in place for gathering this data.

    The captain of the boat would be required to hail out/hail in using his regular cell phone to an automated system where you punch in the data with your keys (ID #, number of anglers, which port). If the LEO checked you while offshore and you had not hailed out, that would be a stiff fine. Since you are well within cell range when coming in thru the jetties, you must hail in PRIOR to stepping out onto the dock.

    If the LEO checks you on the dock and you had not hailed in - stiff fine. This would be an almost real-time reporting system showing how many fishermen are fishing out of what port each day, and catching how many fish. If the LEO checks your data online and then checks your catch for confirmation and it is not correct - yes, stiff fine.

    The whole process could be completed in a matter of 5-10 minutes, and I believe that the LARGE majority of recreational anglers would buy in to this type of data collection process since they would be included in the process. It would also be across the board so that there would be no need to provide different programs for private recs, CFH, or headboats. Again, similar to how the HMS Permit is already setup and running.

    The point is that this can be done cheaply by the people responsible for managing our fish, and not morph into some get-rich-quick scheme by private, enviro-funded, entities that are in it for the profit or control of the data. It could also provide much-needed transparency to the process, as the data could be open to all to see online to give almost real-time information regarding how many fish are landed relative to our ACL, instead of the convoluted modeling programs in place today that are extremely suspect in their accuracy. Also, if controlled by a private company, that data could be considered "proprietory" and not readily accessible by the Public - VERY much in line with how Brettfitz is handling my questions about EDF's involvement in their project.

    Also of concern is if the data is controlled by a private, enviro-funded entity, then there becomes the issue of an inherent bias of that data. Kinda reminds me of the Sector Separation Workshop held a while back. Supposedly was a Gulf Council function and EDF was supposedly "not invited nor at the table". As it turns out, the whole thing was designed, orchestrated, and CONTROLLED by EDF's Whitney Tome. Ms. Tome was also responsible for drafting the "results" of this workshop. I can guarantee you that those results were biased from the get-go.

    I, for one, and damn tired of these deceitful tactics employed by this well-funded, extreme anti-fishing enviro.org when it comes to providing "honest, accurate information" regarding their involvement in our fisheries management process, SUPPOSEDLY done in the name of conservation but in reality being done for the profit and/or control of the data.

    The Environmental Defense Fund needs to get the HELL out of our fisheries management.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
    Last edited by Tom Hilton; 04-05-2012 at 10:22 AM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member CaptBobBryant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hilton View Post
    Brettfitz,

    Anything I have to say to you can be said right here - no need to discuss privately. As you said - I don't know you from Adam.

    You claim to provide "honest, accurate data", yet, when asked to do so in a public venue, you are somehow unable or unwilling to provide "honest, accurate data" about your operation and defer it elsewhere. This is typical of other EDF-funded people that I have asked questions of in the past - most notably the pro-catch share/sector separation group here in the Gulf, as they sure talk a big game but somehow become mute when asked for details about how their plan could possibly work.

    Could it be that Environmental Defense owns a stake in your operation?
    Tom

    I know your concerns well and having dealt with MS Bins on several occasions, she wears the sheep's skin well as does all EDF folks.....and as long as we know who and what level of involvement an eye for treachery can be kept out.
    Having said that, it is a step that we must take and whether this is the vehicle or something else, if the data is accessible in its raw format (personal information removed of course to protect the innocent) It helps me develop competing data to fight NMFS with.

    You know I have put together a plan to build a system similar to this (one that models the NMFS system of data elements) but my time is better spent in data analysis and not the collection and management of said data, so at this point until proven otherwise, I am going to give it the benefit of a doubt (with a weary eye open for signs of EDF intrusion of course).

  10. #40
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    Could it be that Environmental Defense owns a stake in your operation?
    no.

    Trip, FWC asked for our snook data. At that time, it was all we were collecting. They asked for the expansion to trout, reds, tarpon, permit and bones.

    We are all very much anticipating the results of the stock assessment.

    And thanks for making the point about angler honesty. I completely agree.
    "A 'real' fisherman is one who thinks like I do. There are more of us around than you might suspect."
    -John Gierach

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