Mormon leases buck harvest rules??? - Page 3
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  1. #21
    Senior Member gator4ever's Avatar
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    Ok I like the rules set by the Mormons. How does this help us get rid of the inferior genetics that have been passed on over the last 20 years?

    IMO you have to cull cull cull for the next 3 years.
    "sometimes it's OK just to kill a little time" my grandpa 1972

  2. #22
    Senior Member gottheitch22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gator4ever View Post
    Ok I like the rules set by the Mormons. How does this help us get rid of the inferior genetics that have been passed on over the last 20 years?

    IMO you have to cull cull cull for the next 3 years.
    Culling does not work especially since they get half there DNA from the doe . And you don't know what doe he came from .
    living life as i like

  3. #23
    Senior Member gator4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottheitch22 View Post
    Culling does not work especially since they get half there DNA from the doe . And you don't know what doe he came from .
    It is a mess all the entire herd has been screwed up due to this 8 point rule. Pass on inferior bucks over 20 years and the end result will be an inferior herd. I cannot believe that one of the States largest beef producer could not see this coming.
    "sometimes it's OK just to kill a little time" my grandpa 1972

  4. #24
    Senior Member gottheitch22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gator4ever View Post
    It is a mess all the entire herd has been screwed up due to this 8 point rule. Pass on inferior bucks over 20 years and the end result will be an inferior herd. I cannot believe that one of the States largest beef producer could not see this coming.
    CAUSE THEY DONT CARE BUT THE NNEW BIOLOGIST YOU GOT WILL DO JUST FINE . IM SURE YOU WILL GET A CULL BUCK TAG AND SPIKE TAG .
    living life as i like

  5. #25
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    For genetic change to occur, you would need a have a lot more controls in place than what is possible in a free range setting like your lease. The reason you see more browless bucks isn't because more are being produced, it's because fewer are being harvested. They were always there before and will conti he to be there, even under a new harvest guideline that allows them to be harvested when they get old enough. Shooting every buck without brow tines regardless of age won't improve anything genetically, but will kill any chance of having very many older bucks in the herd.

  6. #26
    Senior Member omegafoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottheitch22 View Post
    THE 4.5 RULES IS A joke cause almost none of the members can tell the difference from 3.5 and older . And I bet you biologist cant on the teeth either
    And the Certified Wildlife Biologist that I know will tell you that he'll only call them 5.5+ based on jaw bones. After that it's too much guessing to say with any certainty they're 6.5 or 7.5 without having to send the front teeth to be analyzed.


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  7. #27
    Senior Member omegafoo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbscw79 View Post
    But the point is to age a deer past 4 years, while it's easy to age them by body type. There's a huge difference between the body of a 2 or a 3 year old deer and a 4-5 year old deer. As a mature buck they've got a bigger body, "shorter" legs, thicker neck, etc. I couldn't care less if I'm trying to age an old deer, and neither could a biologist, it's all about aging a juvenile buck versus a mature buck. As for it being harder to age them with the jawbone as an older buck, it's very easy. Milk teeth (pre-molar) = 1-2 year old, no milk teeth = older than 2, more plaque than dentin on the first molar = older than 4, more plaque than dentin on the fourth molar = older than 4.5, more plaque than dentin on all molars = 5 years plus
    If you're aging by plaque, you need to read up on aging. I suppose you're talking ENAMEL, which is the white portion of the tooth. Plaque (and tarter) would be found at the base of the tooth near the gum line ;)


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottheitch22 View Post
    Culling does not work especially since they get half there DNA from the doe . And you don't know what doe he came from .
    I'm not sure I agree for two reasons. First, we don't know that the doe contributes anything to antler development. In animals and humans, each sex is responsible to contributing to certain traits, such as eye and hair color, body size, ect. Does may contribute some, all, or nothing to antler shape and/or size. We just don't know. Should be easy enough to figure out these days with our current state of genetic technology. I just don't think anyone has tried to figure it out.

    Second, even if does contribute to antler size or tine number, whatever genes they're throwing out can still be culled out by killing their inferior buck offspring and randomly killing does, which will on occasion kill some of the bad producers. Killing their inferior male offspring and the occasion random bad doe will greatly reduce the bad does' influence in the gene pool. Just on a slower scale and less efficiently than what could be done if it tuned out that bucks are mostly responsible for antler genes.

    Here's a study I just randomly found from Texas' wildlife agency that on one hand suggests that does may be important contributors to antler development... but at the thrust of the study is that "once a spike, always a spike/cull" can actually be true (to my surprise).

    https://tpwd.texas.gov/huntwild/wild...deer/genetics/

    https://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/...w7000_0827.pdf
    Last edited by Florida Bullfrog; 12-12-2017 at 12:15 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottheitch22 View Post
    THE 4.5 RULES IS A joke cause almost none of the members can tell the difference from 3.5 and older . And I bet you biologist cant on the teeth either . And you use to have to hit 2 of the 3 on Mormon leases
    I agree on the jawbone / teeth aging also. It's even harder if the bucks are killing the protein feed all year.

    The rule is one of the three criteria.

  10. #30
    Member Dshaw94's Avatar
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    We absolutely know that does' genetics hold traits to antler development, not a debate. We also know the amount of control required for genetic alteration, no debate. There is almost "zero" genetic modification on free range deer from harvest practices, period. The amount of control required to alter genetics is incredible. Remember your dog breeding programs, they breed hundreds upon hundreds, if not thousands, culled all but the extreme few that possessed the desired characteristics, and it took decades if not centuries to observe certain desired genetic characteristics. Don't fret over genetics, a good harvest program that satisfies the desires of the majority of the hunters yes, but you'll never influence you herds genetics to a measurable amount.
    "I knew all the rules, but the rules did not know me"

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