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  1. #11
    Senior Member gottheitch22's Avatar
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    15 INCH MAIN BEAM

    4 ON ONE SIDE

    15 INCH SPRED

    Meet two of the 3 and you will be harvesting mature deer and including big 6 points
    living life as i like

  2. #12
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    Lol... Now that the new rules are rolling out faster than they can be printed, it's amusing watching everyone trying to bargain down after spending years calling for more rules! Kinda reminds me of the bull**** that happened at MINWR....

    I know it's all about trophy hunting for some, but you gotta resist because you're killing the sport by a thousand cuts. How many noobs are ya gonna recruit into the sport if you're red taping them to death with measuring tapes? Why can't you leave these choices to the individual while working on grooming them to lay off smaller bucks as they gain experience?

  3. #13
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    Our Deseret lease has three criteria and in order to have a qualified buck you need to hit one of the three criteria. They are:

    - 15" inside spread
    - 19" main beam (either of the two)
    - 4.5 years old or older

    We've actually seen the overall size of bucks shot on our lease improve significantly. Opening weekend I shot a 5.5 year old 10 point that scored 122. That buck would never have lived that long on the old lease rules. Four other members (of the 10 members) have all shot 8 point or better bucks that all aged out at between 4.5 and 7 years old, per our biologist. I can't speak for all biologists, but ours has been very reasonable and the reasoning behind the criteria seems to be sound.

    As for bucks I've let walk, I've got four 8 point or better young bucks that will be shooters next year. I can't remember in 20 years of hunting ever seeing that many "next year" bucks in my scope.

    These criteria may seem a little ridiculous, but at least at our lease seem to be greatly improving the size of the bucks. Just my two cents.

  4. #14
    Senior Member gottheitch22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbscw79 View Post
    Our Deseret lease has three criteria and in order to have a qualified buck you need to hit one of the three criteria. They are:

    - 15" inside spread
    - 19" main beam (either of the two)
    - 4.5 years old or older

    We've actually seen the overall size of bucks shot on our lease improve significantly. Opening weekend I shot a 5.5 year old 10 point that scored 122. That buck would never have lived that long on the old lease rules. Four other members (of the 10 members) have all shot 8 point or better bucks that all aged out at between 4.5 and 7 years old, per our biologist. I can't speak for all biologists, but ours has been very reasonable and the reasoning behind the criteria seems to be sound.

    As for bucks I've let walk, I've got four 8 point or better young bucks that will be shooters next year. I can't remember in 20 years of hunting ever seeing that many "next year" bucks in my scope.

    These criteria may seem a little ridiculous, but at least at our lease seem to be greatly improving the size of the bucks. Just my two cents.
    THE 4.5 RULES IS A joke cause almost none of the members can tell the difference from 3.5 and older . And I bet you biologist cant on the teeth either . And you use to have to hit 2 of the 3 on Mormon leases
    living life as i like

  5. #15
    Senior Member tbsportsman's Avatar
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    If you are interested in the science of culling check out episodes 1-3 of the MSU Deer Lab Podcast.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...234304336?mt=2

    If you don't want to listen, basically, you cannot effect herd genetics of free range deer through culling. You can however effect the the group of cohorts (current buck population). If you kill all the best deer through point restrictions when they are young, you wont have the bucks with the most potential when they are older. It wont change the future genetics, but it does change what is available at that time.

  6. #16
    Senior Member flydown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Mak View Post
    Why can't you leave these choices to the individual while working on grooming them to lay off smaller bucks as they gain experience?
    This ^^

    I've always believed the majority* of deer hunters want to shoot bucks bigger than their last, and typically shoot older animals once they get a few good ones under their belt. The youngun's no longer get their heart pumping and they rarely shoot them unless their freezers are frighteningly low.

    * However, we are not all the same or like minded. Case in point..

    Many of us have friends who love to pull their triggers and don't enjoy shooting does. But they are the ones who will bust a 1.5 year old fork horn in a heartbeat, and several a year if it were up to them. Especially on public land where the common phrase heard is, "Heck, if I didn't shoot him, someone else would have!"

    You also have the "can't grill horns" crowd. They shoot just about anything legal.

    Then you have the "man, he got my heart racing", guy. This is the guy that's been hunting for decades, but only gets out once every few years for one reason or another. Probable causes are an overly hormonal wife who has her CC Permit or he's hopelessly addicted to his job. He's in the woods so infrequently that any deer with antlers will get his blood pumping. And typically he misses or wounds. A lot.

    And of course we all know that, "Dude, I thought he was bigger", guy. Or the "I swear this one must have walked in front of the one I was shooting at", guy. "Man, he had ground shrinkage", is a all too common part of this hunters vocabulary.
    Last edited by flydown; 12-11-2017 at 04:20 PM.
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  7. #17
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    The lease I used to hunt in SC had an inflexible 8 pt rule for 30 years when I started hunting it. Lots of big, mutant, 6 points were running around and spreading their genes to the point they were becoming genetically dominant.

    So based on that experience, I have come to belive that arbitrary restrictions with no flexibilty over long periods of time can negatively effect the gene pool.

    An 8pt rule is fine so long as it get mixed up once in a while to occationally remove mature bucks with less desireble genes.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottheitch22 View Post
    THE 4.5 RULES IS A joke cause almost none of the members can tell the difference from 3.5 and older . And I bet you biologist cant on the teeth either . And you use to have to hit 2 of the 3 on Mormon leases
    I disagree, the 4.5 year rule is there to provide a "qualitative" criteria to the three rules. The two measurement/quantitative criteria leave zero room for doubt, so if your buck doesn't hit those two then the third criteria, which is 100% measured by the biologist, provides some sort of "out" for the biologist. This is also why we only have to hit 1 of the 3. If you shoot a 4 year old 8 point, with a 14.5" inside and a 17" main beam, the biologist has the ability to age that buck at 4.5 and you're golden. Ultimately if you're trying to do the right thing and that is communicated to the biologist, then they'll work with you.

    Regarding the aging questions, there's a huge difference between a spindly legged 2 year old and a good body size 3.5-4 year old. That's ultimately what these rules are in place for. Stop the 2-3.5 year old buck kills, let them grow, and all of the sudden you've got 5 shooter bucks on camera for next year.

    Last, telling the age difference on a jawbone is extremely easy. Granted, that's after you've killed the deer, but a quick google search can get you up to snuff on a basic jawbone aging. Couple that with four years of college and a biology degree, and aging a deer is a walk in the park for these guys.

  9. #19
    Senior Member gottheitch22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbscw79 View Post
    I disagree, the 4.5 year rule is there to provide a "qualitative" criteria to the three rules. The two measurement/quantitative criteria leave zero room for doubt, so if your buck doesn't hit those two then the third criteria, which is 100% measured by the biologist, provides some sort of "out" for the biologist. This is also why we only have to hit 1 of the 3. If you shoot a 4 year old 8 point, with a 14.5" inside and a 17" main beam, the biologist has the ability to age that buck at 4.5 and you're golden. Ultimately if you're trying to do the right thing and that is communicated to the biologist, then they'll work with you.

    Regarding the aging questions, there's a huge difference between a spindly legged 2 year old and a good body size 3.5-4 year old. That's ultimately what these rules are in place for. Stop the 2-3.5 year old buck kills, let them grow, and all of the sudden you've got 5 shooter bucks on camera for next year.

    Last, telling the age difference on a jawbone is extremely easy. Granted, that's after you've killed the deer, but a quick google search can get you up to snuff on a basic jawbone aging. Couple that with four years of college and a biology degree, and aging a deer is a walk in the park for these guys.
    Its only easy to age deer as they are young and as they get older iits harder to age them from the jaw bone . Ive seen plenty of bucks on Buck Strand get aged way younger then what they were by the jaw bone .
    living life as i like

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottheitch22 View Post
    Its only easy to age deer as they are young and as they get older iits harder to age them from the jaw bone . Ive seen plenty of bucks on Buck Strand get aged way younger then what they were by the jaw bone .
    But the point is to age a deer past 4 years, while it's easy to age them by body type. There's a huge difference between the body of a 2 or a 3 year old deer and a 4-5 year old deer. As a mature buck they've got a bigger body, "shorter" legs, thicker neck, etc. I couldn't care less if I'm trying to age an old deer, and neither could a biologist, it's all about aging a juvenile buck versus a mature buck. As for it being harder to age them with the jawbone as an older buck, it's very easy. Milk teeth (pre-molar) = 1-2 year old, no milk teeth = older than 2, more plaque than dentin on the first molar = older than 4, more plaque than dentin on the fourth molar = older than 4.5, more plaque than dentin on all molars = 5 years plus

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