My Niece's Doberman Pup... - Page 3

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  1. #21
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadman View Post
    Spaying and neutering is done to keep the population of unwanted dogs down. Dogs, like humans are going to have sex and no owner can 100% keep it from happening. Docking and cropping is just to meet an unnatural breed requirement of the AKC and has no benefit. The tail injury crap is pure BS. the AVMA has proven that to be crap.

    As I said, I am surprised you endorse the activity. You can do it and justify it however you please, but it is unnecessary.
    Now for the tail docking thing......

    You said the AVMA proved is was BS.... No the did not..... Here is what they posted on it.
    https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Li...kgrounder.aspx

    That is a position statement....

    How about some real studies that prove my point....
    http://theses.gla.ac.uk/5629/

    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/02/2082/4

    Here are some highlights for you....
    In one shooting season 57% of undocked Spaniels and 39% of Hunt Point Retrievers experienced a tail injury of some sort.

    Researchers at Glasgow University found that almost 57% of working spaniels suffered a tail injury during the 2010-2011 shooting season.

    The rest of the UK backed off on the docking ban..... The current issue is in Scotland alone.... But it is about to be reversed...
    England, Wales and Northern Ireland there are exemptions for working dogs of certain breeds including Spaniels, Hunt Point Retrievers and terriers.

    Here is a study from Sweden.... Largely the same results.

    http://www.cdb.org/countries/sweden.htm

    A couple of points.... You took a swipe at the AKC...... The AKC has NOTHING to do with the breed standard of any breed they register.... Zero, nada, zilch.... The Parent clubs of the individual breeds control the standard. And now in most breeds that are traditionally docked and or cropped, may be shown in conformation with full tails and or ears, without penalization..... Boxers, spaniels, Danes, etc... Not sure about dobermans.

    And here is a visual aid for you.

  2. #22
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister-Jr View Post
    It's not about what is best for the dog, it's about the owner of the dog. Mutilating dogs for the owners pleasure.
    IF you are doing what is best for the dog..... You would not spay and neuter

  3. #23
    Senior Member cadman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit View Post
    I will correct your statements....... Spaying and neutering are done because owners want to be lazy and want an excuse to be irresponsible. And they spay and neuter with GREAT GREAT risk to their dog's health and quality of life...... You may or may not remember.... But Coldair, Me, and Pointerdixie all had sporting breed dogs ( which are particularly at risk) that were diagnosed with osteo sarcoma around the same time. These were not old dogs.... Six to 8 years old dogs.... they all died within a couple of weeks of each other.... If you looked at the UC Davis studies..... And the Purdue Studies you would know that Osteo sarcoma is a very very rare cancer in intact dogs.... But it is common in altered dogs.... And it ain't pretty....
    .
    The National Canine Cancer foundation disagree with you. They say intact dogs are more predisposed to the cancer.
    http://wearethecure.org/learn-more-a.../osteosarcoma/

    Canine Cancer says there is increased risk, they also say fluoride in water can cause it as well.
    http://www.caninecancer.com/osteosarcoma/

    There is significant evidence to wait until the dog is at least a year old before neutering, that I will agree to.

    You can try and defend cropping and docking all you want, but there is no reason to do it.
    I am just here for my amusement

  4. #24
    Senior Member cadman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit View Post
    Now for the tail docking thing......

    You said the AVMA proved is was BS.... No the did not..... Here is what they posted on it.
    https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/Li...kgrounder.aspx

    That is a position statement....

    How about some real studies that prove my point....
    http://theses.gla.ac.uk/5629/

    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/02/2082/4

    Here are some highlights for you....
    In one shooting season 57% of undocked Spaniels and 39% of Hunt Point Retrievers experienced a tail injury of some sort.

    Researchers at Glasgow University found that almost 57% of working spaniels suffered a tail injury during the 2010-2011 shooting season.

    The rest of the UK backed off on the docking ban..... The current issue is in Scotland alone.... But it is about to be reversed...
    England, Wales and Northern Ireland there are exemptions for working dogs of certain breeds including Spaniels, Hunt Point Retrievers and terriers.

    Here is a study from Sweden.... Largely the same results.

    http://www.cdb.org/countries/sweden.htm

    A couple of points.... You took a swipe at the AKC...... The AKC has NOTHING to do with the breed standard of any breed they register.... Zero, nada, zilch.... The Parent clubs of the individual breeds control the standard. And now in most breeds that are traditionally docked and or cropped, may be shown in conformation with full tails and or ears, without penalization..... Boxers, spaniels, Danes, etc... Not sure about dobermans.

    And here is a visual aid for you.
    Your niece going to use the Doberman for hunting?
    I am just here for my amusement

  5. #25
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadman View Post
    Your niece going to use the Doberman for hunting?
    No but you said the tail injury thing was BS.....

  6. #26
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadman View Post
    The National Canine Cancer foundation disagree with you. They say intact dogs are more predisposed to the cancer.
    http://wearethecure.org/learn-more-a.../osteosarcoma/

    Canine Cancer says there is increased risk, they also say fluoride in water can cause it as well.
    http://www.caninecancer.com/osteosarcoma/

    There is significant evidence to wait until the dog is at least a year old before neutering, that I will agree to.

    You can try and defend cropping and docking all you want, but there is no reason to do it.
    And BAHAHA on your cancer "studies...... There are no studies cited on those little ditties you posted..

    Hold on a minute..... I will post some REAL studies from Universities....

    I do not post stuff on dogs I cannot back up.......

  7. #27
    Senior Member cadman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit View Post
    No but you said the tail injury thing was BS.....
    It is for that Doberman that isn't going hunting.

    Also, none of the tail injuries were fatal. I had a Labrador injure his tail, he was fine. I had my Golden get an eye injury, which are common, do you recommend removing their eyes to avoid this as well. They get foot injuries, should we remove their feet?

    This is laughable.

    Keep trying to defend something that is only done to meet an AKC breed standard.
    I am just here for my amusement

  8. #28
    Senior Member cadman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit View Post
    And BAHAHA on your cancer "studies...... There are no studies cited on those little ditties you posted..

    Hold on a minute..... I will post some REAL studies from Universities....

    I do not post stuff on dogs I cannot back up.......
    You already have.

    This discussion is about docking and cropping. I know you want to change it.

    There is no reason to crop and dock. As I said, I was just surprised you endorsed it, now even more so, since you seem to oppose neutering and spaying.

    I will even agree with you that both are done for the owner and not the dog.
    I am just here for my amusement

  9. #29
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadman View Post
    The National Canine Cancer foundation disagree with you. They say intact dogs are more predisposed to the cancer.
    http://wearethecure.org/learn-more-a.../osteosarcoma/

    Canine Cancer says there is increased risk, they also say fluoride in water can cause it as well.
    http://www.caninecancer.com/osteosarcoma/

    There is significant evidence to wait until the dog is at least a year old before neutering, that I will agree to.

    You can try and defend cropping and docking all you want, but there is no reason to do it.
    Read and enjoy......
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0055937


    Here is a condensed article on relevant studies.
    http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites...g-effects.aspx
    Some highlights.
    For Female Rottweilers, Ovary Removal Significantly Increases the Risk for a Major Fatal Disease


    In Desexed US Golden Retrievers, the Rates of Joint Disease and Cancer Are Much Higher Than in Intact Goldens

    Some specific concerns



    Vizsla Study Suggests a Significantly Increased Risk for Cancer and Behavioral Disorders in Spayed or Neutered Dogs

    BTW.... you like the AVMA so much.... They AGREE with the studies
    https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/130401s.aspx
    https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/100301g.aspx

    The Purdue study coined the term Intact advantage... In order for a ***** to gain that advantage she cannot be spayed before six....
    If you wait six years, why spay at all....


    You keep thinking I am trying to justify my position..... I could care less what you think... And I am NOT trying to change your opinion.... Your mind is made up... Matters not to me what you think..... Docking and cropping is legal.... There is not a dang thing you can do about it.... And it is none of your business..... It is between the owner, their breeder and their vets.....

    I simply explained and provided fact that there are valid reasons to dock or crop some dogs.... Most are done for appearance. And I do not care..... If a person wants a Doberman that looks like Dobermans have looked since Louis Doberman developed the breed. GREAT....

    I am not anti crop/dock nor am I anti spay neuter.... Owners choice and I support that choice.......

    But anyone that condemns cropping/docking but supports spay/neuter.... is a hypocrite.... End of story..... No justification supporting one and condemning the other...

  10. #30
    Senior Member JohnnyBandit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cadman View Post
    It is for that Doberman that isn't going hunting.

    Also, none of the tail injuries were fatal. I had a Labrador injure his tail, he was fine. I had my Golden get an eye injury, which are common, do you recommend removing their eyes to avoid this as well. They get foot injuries, should we remove their feet?

    This is laughable.

    Keep trying to defend something that is only done to meet an AKC breed standard.

    No.... The discussion was about my Niece's Puppy..... You and another decided to get on your high horse and condemn Cropping.... Y'all.... Changed it..... I could care less what either of you think.... I usually do not respond to the other person..... I already know they are an idiot...... You chimed in and tried to condemn me.... I generally have valued what you had to say.... But based on the BS you have posted..... Moving forward that has changed......

    I simply pointed out that cropping and docking as well as spay and neuter are procedures done purely for convenience... you chose to go on a tirade, without proof or knowledge and try to separate the procedures.....

    In the process.... you not only did you prove you are clueless but that you are also a hypocrite.....

    But I am having fun......... I LOVE to post about dogs, and now I am finding enjoyment pointing out your ignorance and hypocracy....

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