3 day red snapper season

2

Replies

  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    How is providing enough fish for 260 charter boats to put their customers on limits of 10 lb snapper for 49 days doesn't promote overfishing for that sector? That's a little more than Texas CFH boats alone.

    There are over 1,200 charter Reef fish permits in the Gulf and hundreds of boats out of AL/FL panhandle take 2-3 trips per day.

    What in-season mechanisms are in place to ensure they don't overfish their quota?

    Texas has what 30-40 full time charter boats? Just told you no one in real mass runs 2-3 charters per day more like 1.2-1.3 trips per day thru the season.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Texas has over 200 federal Reef fish permits Ard. You are saying that only 30-40 fish red snapper season? Please post up documentation, otherwise, we must assume all 200+ Texas boats are fishing as well as the 1,000 charter boats in the Gulf.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    I guess the mandatory reporting that's coming will take care of all that. Question, how do you think Texas is going to react when it shows that they have been mis reporting data to NMFS? I wonder if that's why all the members from Texas vote against mandatory reporting on charterboats?
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    I guess the mandatory reporting that's coming will take care of all that. Question, how do you think Texas is going to react when it shows that they have been mis reporting data to NMFS? I wonder if that's why all the members from Texas vote against mandatory reporting on charterboats?

    Naw, too little too late Ard. We told you EDF-funded captains that y'all were doing this backwards years ago - document your catches FIRST, then you can look at separating the fish LATER. I presented the OFS Permit Plan at the Sector Separation Workshop in 2010 but the Gulf Council nor the EDF-funded minions were interested and pushed Sector Separation anyway, knowing full well at the time that the data was crap.

    NOW, documenting your catches when y'all have 49 days and we have 3 is going to do nothing but shift the fish over to your side even more since you are now creating a landings history based on a biased, weighted format. We should have been documenting back when we had equal fishing days and an actual season to fish.

    How do you think Crabtree will react when the mandatory reporting goes against what HE has endorsed as the factual data - the buck stops with him since he has been repeatedly alerted about the data deficiencies yet has made the decision to accept the data anyway over the years.

    We won't have access to the ELB data since it will be considered "proprietary" so they can manipulate it at will anyway. It's kinda like the Beaufort headboat mandatory reporting system - I emailed a Gulf Council member a while back looking for the 2016 headboat landings numbers - guess what? They still did NOT have those numbers this spring. How hard can it be to count the fish on 67 headboats for a 45 day season that ended 7 months prior? My 16 year old could have done it in one day.

    Total and complete joke, as your ELB reporting will also be.

    It's time to burn the whole thing to the ground and start over.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Sorry Hilton, all of this nonsense you spew will also be proven to be wrong. This is whats going to happen. Charter boats will get real time reporting, we will not only say under quota with a proven device over time we will shrink the buffer and get even more days. You will have a fully accountable commercial and charter sector, and you will finally get a full state management system for the private rec. Out to 9 miles that is. Also this device will end the sunset on amendment 40 making it permanent. Just going to take a little time, sit back and watch.
  • CountryBumpkinCountryBumpkin Fla. Piney WoodsPosts: 1,211 Officer
    Just going to take a little time, sit back and watch.

    I don't believe they are stupid enough to allow a system to be put in place that will accurately and truthfully report the "entire trip data". They will undoubtly leave something out or somewhere to "massage the numbers".

    All it would take is one years truthful report of every boat that fished, how many fishermen, every fish caught whether kept or released, and how many hours that were fished.

    If that data were run through a "catch per unit of effort" program and the numbers crunched.........it would show just how "realistic" the NMFS and King Roys numbers have been. Never gonna let that happen.

    By the way, most States have well managed and healthy fresh water populations..........and the CPUE model is widely used to access the abundance or lack of the fish.:wink

    I say......I say son.......new & improved my tail feathers.

  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Sorry Hilton, all of this nonsense you spew will also be proven to be wrong. This is whats going to happen. Charter boats will get real time reporting, we will not only say under quota with a proven device over time we will shrink the buffer and get even more days. You will have a fully accountable commercial and charter sector, and you will finally get a full state management system for the private rec. Out to 9 miles that is. Also this device will end the sunset on amendment 40 making it permanent. Just going to take a little time, sit back and watch.

    Not nonsense - REALITY.

    I emailed a Gulf Council member a while back looking for the 2016 headboat landings numbers - guess what? They still did NOT have those numbers this spring. How hard can it be to count the fish on 67 headboats for a 45 day season that ended 7 months prior?

    The same thing will happen with the CFH ELB - nobody will have access to the data and Roy Crabtree and Co. is not going to release any data that is not in line with their BS bogus numbers. Show me how transparent this will be and then we can talk - until then, this is just total BS.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Which council member did you ask?
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Officer
    I'm gonna try to respond to you the best I can for your vague and fuzzy questions.
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Jeffrey,
    It's amusing that you refer NOAA numbers to justify your stance.

    First off, I'm citing the analysis made for the season. Whether you like it or not, that is best available, unless you can come up with something better.

    If you insist on using NOAA's numbers, then please explain how THEIR numbers for state water landed red snapper averaged 26% for the last several years, but is now 81%. How is that possible? (Answer: it's not possible but was needed to make their numbers work to justify the ridiculous 3 day season).

    Because of all the long state seasons, where fish are available in state waters...... or...... state enforcment (like in AL) intercepts at the jetty, not at the federal/state line. Gee..... of course I caught those in state waters ...... much like TX.


    * Please cite the source for the specific number of inactive permits.

    I never said anything about inactive permits. You did. See next.


    * Please cite the source for permits that don't fish for red snapper and just fish for grouper or other reef fish.

    I just cut out permits homeported in areas, such as peninsular Florida, where its pretty well documented that red snapper don't occur in state waters.

    * Please cite the source for the number of permits leased out between fishermen so that they CAN fish for red snapper.

    Don't understand this one. You can't lease your permit. You can own a boat and have the permit in your name, and have a captain run it for you, but you can't lease a permit. You can't lease your permit to the F/V Miss Judy to the F/V Miss Annie May for their use - having a Miss Judy permit on the Miss Annie May is not valid. You'd have to fully transfer that permit. So, I'm not sure what you're referring to. If you doubt me, call the permits dept. at NMFS.

    * Please cite the source for the number of charter boats that can make 2-3 charter trips per day in the Gulf.

    Think Huckleberry has indicated that, so.....

    If there are 200 charter boats in Alabama/Florida panhandle that can make 2-3 trips per day, that's 400 to 600 trips per day - not 200.

    see above

    There is an unregulated market on leasing of permits between fishermen - nobody really knows how many permits are leased.

    see above

    If permits are inactive, then why doesn't our federal fisheries management know this exact number?

    because there isn't a logbook, as Huckleberry indicated there is now.

    Fact is, they rely on vague, inaccurate information in order to be able to manipulate the numbers at will. Fact is, the 49 day red snapper for-hire season encourages overfishing by the for-hire sector, while the 3 day private rec season encourages dangerous derby conditions.

    your facts are your opinion, and that is a big issue I have with your diatribes. You spout off stuff that you think; not what you can document. if you don't like the analyses that are produced, then get data and show it to be wrong; don't just say "that's wrong and here's why I think so.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Ard, none of your business. Fact is, the data was not available 7 months after the season closed. That is a matter of public record.Unacceptable by any standard.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Oh ok I get it, you claim to ask a council member a question but it's none of my business to ask who it was? Ok I get it, would hate for anyone to back up your claims. No problem buddy just keep on spewing. Pretty weak
  • whipachawwhipachaw Posts: 505 Officer
    I don't want to get deep into all the numbers but I agree with Tom that each state should manage its own fisheries. Federal government one size fits all never works. Much like a national min wage. $15 an hour isn't enough in New York, and its way too much in Montana. Here in SW Florida, we will only get 3 days, all year to catch and keep ARS. Its quite possible winds could be over 15 knots all 3 of those days, stopping most recreational fisherman from making that run. Usually 130 to 150 FOW is the starting point, although I have caught a 12 incher in 100 FOW before. That's a 45 to 70 mile run give or take for those not familiar with our area. Not only should the state mange its own offshore waters, it should be managed by region as obviously those of us in SW Florida are getting a major shaft. I happen to have already planned my vacation and I will be gone for the 3 days we get. Something has to give. Even at 15 days, most people would only get out 2 times (2 weekends), maybe 5 or more times if they don't work and can jump on the nice days during the work week. Maybe the commercial and for hire boats will hit their quota, but I really doubt recreational fishermen in my area would even come close.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Oh ok I get it, you claim to ask a council member a question but it's none of my business to ask who it was? Ok I get it, would hate for anyone to back up your claims. No problem buddy just keep on spewing. Pretty weak

    The facts are the facts - don't shoot the messenger. It's a matter of public record. Don't need you EDF-funded types harassing the few Gulf Council members actually fighting the good fight.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Really? What has been accomplished in the last 10 years by any council members that has resulted in more access?
  • mjacksmjacks Posts: 151 Deckhand
    Really? What has been accomplished in the last 10 years by any council members that has resulted in more access?

    I think I can answer that. Here you go!

    1) Collusion
    2) Corruption
    3) Bribery
    4) Trading in Influence
    5) Cronyism
    6) Patronage
    7) Criminal Enterprise
    8) Unholy Alliance
    9) Gombeenism
    10) Graft
    11) Influence Peddling
    12) Malfeasance
    13) Malice
    14) Abuse Of Power
    15) Conflict Of Interest

    From its sham origins starting in 2010 with the shameful attempt at indoctrination of the masses at the first NMFS / EDF meeting in Tampa, it's called "Sector Separation".
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,198 Admiral
    mjacks wrote: »
    I think I can answer that. Here you go!

    1) Collusion
    2) Corruption
    3) Bribery
    4) Trading in Influence
    5) Cronyism
    6) Patronage
    7) Criminal Enterprise
    8) Unholy Alliance
    9) Gombeenism
    10) Graft
    11) Influence Peddling
    12) Malfeasance
    13) Malice
    14) Abuse Of Power
    15) Conflict Of Interest

    From its sham origins starting in 2010 with the shameful attempt at indoctrination of the masses at the first NMFS / EDF meeting in Tampa, it's called "Sector Separation".
    ain't you special with all them BIG words...lol
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,153 Officer
    mjacks wrote: »
    I think I can answer that. Here you go!

    1) Collusion
    2) Corruption
    3) Bribery
    4) Trading in Influence
    5) Cronyism
    6) Patronage
    7) Criminal Enterprise
    8) Unholy Alliance
    9) Gombeenism
    10) Graft
    11) Influence Peddling
    12) Malfeasance
    13) Malice
    14) Abuse Of Power
    15) Conflict Of Interest

    From its sham origins starting in 2010 with the shameful attempt at indoctrination of the masses at the first NMFS / EDF meeting in Tampa, it's called "Sector Separation".

    Well done! I do not think you missed a one!!!!
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Where are former Gulf Council members Harlon Pearce, Bob Gill, and Corky Perret, et al these days?

    Now working for EDF front group Gulf Seafood Institute. Hmmmmm.

    http://gulfseafoodinstitute.org/gsi-board-gulf-seafood-institute/
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Where are former Gulf Council members Harlon Pearce, Bob Gill, and Corky Perret, et al these days?

    Now working for EDF front group Gulf Seafood Institute. Hmmmmm.

    http://gulfseafoodinstitute.org/gsi-board-gulf-seafood-institute/


    So Hilton you have some Documentation showing that EDF funds the Gulf Seafood Institute or is this just more of your opinionated lies again. I can not believe you are actually a moderator. What a joke.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Im just wondering who's Hiltons buddies are that are fighting the good fight? I mean if they are I want to know who they are and what they have done?? Thats all shouldn't be too hard to brag on these guys huh?
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    Mjacks where was all the rage when they passed amendment 30b the real sector separation?
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,198 Admiral
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Where are former Gulf Council members Harlon Pearce, Bob Gill, and Corky Perret, et al these days?

    Now working for EDF front group Gulf Seafood Institute. Hmmmmm.

    http://gulfseafoodinstitute.org/gsi-board-gulf-seafood-institute/
    What year is that from Tom?
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    What year is that from Tom?


    Flexibility in Rebuilding Timelines:
    Timelines for rebuilding fisheries must be relaxed to enhance flexibility for fishery managers.
    Annual Catch Limits:
    The process for establishing ACLs should be revised to increase flexibility, particularly in cases where a fish stock lacks enough data to make sound management decisions.


    When was the last time y'all heard EDF wanting Flexibility in rebuilding timelines and Flexibility in ACLs???
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Art - Today
  • markw4321markw4321 Posts: 171 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    Where are former Gulf Council members Harlon Pearce, Bob Gill, and Corky Perret, et al these days?

    Now working for EDF front group Gulf Seafood Institute. Hmmmmm.

    http://gulfseafoodinstitute.org/gsi-board-gulf-seafood-institute/

    That other recreational fishing advocacy group :wink the Ocean Conservancy funded the GSI kickoff.

    http://gulfseafoodnews.com/2013/09/08/gulf-seafood-institute-becomes-reality-with-20000-grant-from-ocean-conservancy/
  • HuckleberryHuckleberry Posts: 180 Officer
    markw4321 wrote: »
    That other recreational fishing advocacy group :wink the Ocean Conservancy funded the GSI kickoff.

    http://gulfseafoodnews.com/2013/09/08/gulf-seafood-institute-becomes-reality-with-20000-grant-from-ocean-conservancy/

    Thanks Mark, but I'm sure EDF funds the Ocean Conservancy right Hilton? Since apparently listening to him EDF runs the world.
  • mjacksmjacks Posts: 151 Deckhand
    Thanks Mark, but I'm sure EDF funds the Ocean Conservancy right Hilton? Since apparently listening to him EDF runs the world.

    Don't make me go there. It certainly isn't rocket science and with just a little effort you can see for yourself the circle of friends (and the money flows) in the environmental 501 (c) (3) community. If one requires plausible deniability in a certain area,they grant money to another 501 (c) (3) to take care of business for them. It's a rather common practice actually.

    Way back when - back when I actually gave a **** - I spent a few months charting the flow of money within this vast society of elitists who self anoint with what is in their minds a superior intellect that grants them the right to tell the remainder of society what to do, think, eat and drive, lest we all die early deaths due to our own stupidity.

    But we don't really have to worry about them hiding out much these days - as since November their brains have completely short-circuited and so many are acting out and placing on full public display their true chronic, petulant behavior. It's pretty funny actually!

    But yes, when the mood strikes me again, I would be happy to flow chart the money flows that you just might not feel actually exist. The result of course would become a blinding flash of the obvious for you to ponder and absorb. Then you can decide who's telling the truth.
  • toomertoomer Posts: 308 Deckhand
    I used to work in that world in another sector after I retired and you, sir, are spot on. Membership in the group requires going to certain east coast colleges where kids are recruited to cushy 6 figure jobs and work in a very closed, tight-knit world. They believe in what they have been taught, not what they have experienced.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,550 Captain
    Ard has been so wrong on so many very basic fisheries issues, yet he presents himself as some sort of expert here. He is not - he is simply a shill for his enviro benefactors. He has said that the Gulf headboats land 14% of the for-hire landings (wrong). He has said that private rec landings cannot affect for-hire seasons (wrong - 407d). He has said that President Trump could not affect the magnuson with an Executive Order (wrong). He continually defends his enviro benefactors, the commercial Sea Lords, and even the NMFS bogus numbers.

    Now Ard is claiming that the Gulf Seafood Institute is legit, and not a front group for the commercial/enviro interests. Pew, EDF, OC, et al are all guilty in this undue influence on our fisheries policies. Ard's Charter Fisherman's Association (CFA) was formed when The Gulf of Mexico Reef Fish Shareholder's Alliance (Shareholders) laundered $48,000 to CFA for it's seed money. Why would a commercial fishing association fund the formation of a recreational charter organization? Where did the Shareholders get that $48,000? The Shareholders have filed multiple lawsuits in recent years, ALL paid for by; THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND.

    The Environmental Defense Fund also created/formed the Shareholders by the way - yes Ard, THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND.

    Ask Tom Ard how many hundreds of thousands of dollars the THE ENVIRONMENTAL DEFENSE FUND given to his Charter Fisherman's Association. Of course, he will not answer that very simple basic question. Ask Ard WHY a rogue enviro group would want to give his CFA such a giant sum of money.

    It's supposedly illegal for Gulf Council members to accept any form of compensation from outside groups while on the Council. However, if they do the bidding of certain groups while in a position to affect change, perhaps there is a golden parachute waiting once they leave the Gulf Council.

    Anyone know what, if anything, that Corky Perret, Harlon Pearce, Bob Gill, or even current sitting Gulf Council member Johnny Greene are being paid as board members/employees of The Gulf Seafood Institute?
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