Grouper law change would be a mistake



Tallahassee Democrat 01/13/2012, Page C02




Grouper law change would be a mistake


The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission is about to become the lap dog of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

The NOAA is the parent federal group of the National Marine Fisheries Service, which administers the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council that controls fisheries in waters beyond state jurisdiction.

The feds.

The NOAA, not known for using science in its rule-making processes, has decreed that non-commercial fishermen (private individuals who plan on personally eating their catch) may only keep gag grouper caught in the Gulf of Mexico from July 1 through Oct. 31 when they fish nine miles or more offshore. Florida wants to adopt the same rules in state waters, fewer than nine miles offshore.

Unfortunately gag grouper, the most popular and abundant of the inshore groupers, don’t hang around in state waters during those hot, summer months. They migrate to cooler water beyond the nine-mile limit ... well beyond it. If you’re fortunate enough to have a big boat capable of safely fishing 50 or more miles out then there is no problem.

Nor is there one if you’re a commercial fisherman who typically spends days offshore in deep water.

The argument FWC makes is that enforcement will be easier if both grouper seasons match. According to the FWC website there are approximately 2.7 million non-commercial fishermen statewide — who pay taxes via license fees to fish in saltwater, which in turn funds FWC people to enforce the rules, no matter how difficult that might be.

These numbers include visitors, who along with the Joe Lunch Buckets, the guys and gals who put in their 40 or more hours each week and look forward to safely getting out on the water for a shot at some tasty grouper their family and friends can enjoy. They don’t particularly want to hear someone’s excuse that “it’s too hard to enforce the rules” when it comes to setting fishing seasons different from the federal ones. They just want to fish.

By now you’ve figured out that the feds have done exactly what we are asking the state to do. They established their gag grouper rules to coincide with when the grouper move into their area of operation. They didn’t want to deal with recreational fishermen who might have caught a grouper or two in state waters and then wandered into the federal zone, as would be the case during spring and fall. That would be too hard. The NOAA rule-makers also knew very few recreational fishermen would be traveling 50 or more miles out (a three-hour run in moderate seas) into the Gulf to fish for just a few gag grouper, especially during the turbulent summer season. These guys ain’t stupid.

So come on Florida, call their bluff. Show them that, yes, enforcement might be a tad tougher, but it’s more important that our rankand- file citizens be given a shot at the gags, just like the big boys. And oh by the way, our state economy needs the big bucks that shallowwater grouper fishing provides during the warmer months. By the time you figure in money spent for fuel, dockage, boating costs, actual boat, motor and trailer price tags, trailer/boat registrations and incidentals like bait, beverages and ice, you’re talking about a significant chunk of change. Add food, lodging, air fare, car rental, auto gas, charter/ guide fees and licensing for out-of-state visitors who come to Florida either to specifically fish for grouper or as a side attraction during their vacation, and you’re really talking money. Ask the folks in Apalachicola, Apalachee Bay, Keaton Beach and Steinhatchee (our little section of the Gulf Coast paradise) if they want to give up a significant part of their income because “it’s too hard to enforce the rules,” and I think you know the answer. And Governor Rick Scott, if you’re reading this, lots of jobs will be lost if we can’t fish for grouper when they are here. The same thing goes for you legislators in town for session. Check with your fishing folks back home and see how they feel. (Hint: Call your local newspaper’s outdoors person.) Hmmm, here’s a thought. Why not set the federal season to coincide with when the grouper are all in state waters? Then nobody will be fishing in the deep waters of the Gulf, because the grouper won’t be there.

And close the Gulf to gag grouper fishing in the summer when the gags are there because they will be too far out to safely fish.

And since very few — if any — anglers will be snatching them during the summer months, the grouper will be free to mate, thereby increasing the population. Isn’t that the ultimate goal of fisheries management? Or am I being too simplistic?

If any of you reading this want to attend the final rules meeting and make your feelings known to the commissioners, it’s at the Pat Thomas Law Enforcement Academy Auditorium, U.S. Highway 90, east of Quincy. The meeting starts at 8:30 a.m., on Feb. 8. If you want to submit written comments, go to www.myfwc.com and follow the links under Saltwater Fishing.


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Jerr y Gerardi

Outdoors

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Replies

  • SpineymanSpineyman Posts: 7,514 Admiral
    Our State does not have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the Fed like the State of Texas did. They are too worried about the federal money kick backs instead of looking out for its citizens first and foremost.
    AKA Jiggin Junkie

    II Chronicles 7:14

    if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.



  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,342 Captain
    We need to make our opinion known:

    Mister Nick Wiley, Executive Director, FWC:
    Dear sir, It's time for our FWC to represent the best interest of the State of Florida.
    Un-supported, over-zealous, regulations has succeeded in bringing Florida's entire fishing community to a halt. Florida depends on tourist dollars. The NOAA, not known for using science in its rule-making processes, has decreed that non-commercial fishermen (private individuals who plan on personally eating their catch) may only keep gag grouper caught in the Gulf of Mexico from July 1 through Oct. 31 when they fish nine miles or more offshore. Florida wants to adopt the same rules in state waters, fewer than nine miles offshore. (Tallahassee Democrat) What this amounts to is that when gag migrate to State waters, they would be completely off limits to the recreational fisherman, including, spend my money in Florida, tourist. This, combined with a very short Summer only American red snapper season, means our tourist trade will spend their millions of dollars in places where they can actually catch & keep fresh fish, really fresh fish. Most, "fresh fish" in our markets are at least 10-12 days old. Just think what adds such as:
    "FLORIDA home of really fresh fish...you catch, you eat, the same day," could mean to our tourist trade. Do we really want our, or what should be our, tourist dollars spent in places like Texas?
    Texas state waters (extending 9 miles) has a year round open ARS season and a 4 per person bag limit. This flies directly in the face of Florida who was forced by amendment 30(b) to comply with federal regulations. Because of this, Texas is able to harvest a much larger percentage of the total ARS as compared to Florida. This is a major contributing factor to the shorter than average recreational season despite an increase in the TAC. (Tallahassee Democrat) This, along with a very extended Texas gag season is also, "A major contributing factor" in the loss of Florida's billion dollar tourist trade.
    It's time for our FWC to represent the best interest of the State of Florida, We, the peoples of Florida are, or should be, more important than the cash flow from NOAA!
    Bob Harbison Native recreational Florida fisherman & hunter
    Mister Wiley:
    0e7af310.jpg
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,548 Captain
    Correction:
    The total ARS TAC for many years INCLUDED Texas state water snapper, which BTW, was a miniscule amount compared to the total Gulf ARS harvest. Once the feds tried to force Florida and Texas kowtow to implementing federal regs in state waters, and Texas refused, did the Texas state water snapper supposedly become an issue. For example, in the 12 years prior to the "EDF-Crafted/Passed 2006 Magnuson", the entire Gulf rec fishermen UNDERFISHED our quota by an average of 100,000 pounds per year. Immediately after the "EDF-Crafted/Passed 2006 Magnuson", the feds claimed (in 2007) that we OVERFISHED our red snapper TAC by 1 MILLION POUNDS due to Texas' non-compliance with federal regs. Highly suspect, and the beginning of NMFS willful manipulation of the data in order to drive us off the water.

    Texas has NEVER harvested a much larger percentage of the total ARS as compared to Florida, NOR is the Texas state water snapper harvest a major contributing factor to the shorter than average recreational season. That honor belongs to Roy Crabtree's office, who claims that we were somehow able to catch MORE snapper this year than we did in those 12 years prior to the 2006 MSA, despite having 75% LESS time to do it, 50% LESS daily bag limit, and 20% LESS charter boats.

    Virtually impossible, but it's all they got.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,190 Admiral
    ...........
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • harbisonharbison Posts: 2,342 Captain
    Captain Hilton, I respect your opinion much more thn I do the Tallahassee Democrat. What exactly is the Tallahassee Democrat? Bob
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    harbison wrote: »
    Captain Hilton, I respect your opinion much more thn I do the Tallahassee Democrat. What exactly is the Tallahassee Democrat? Bob

    That would be a Newspaper in Tallahasse

    When are we the citizen fishermen going to wake up!
    We are the numbers (2.7 miilion in Florida alone)

    Since 2004 I have been saying we need to cut NMFS' data off at the knees and adopt a position of CIVIL diobedience.
    Citizens blockades of passes and ports.
    hundreds of protestors at every GMFMC meeting

    We are truly the silent majorty, unfortunately the most silent don't make a peep until it is too late.
    For the longest time the inshore versus offshore argument rang loudly, well now let's see what happens when basically the entire state water fishery for grouper is shut down. I know several charter captains who make a large protion of their year targeting inshore and nearshore grouper, this wil virtually put many of them out of business.

    There source of funds is us....maybe we need to show them that the money they receive form the FEDS is nothing compared to shutting off the spigot of money the flows directly form us to them.

    They always believe that they can do whatever they want and we will still fish (and spend our money). It is time to show them that this is a misguided notion in fact if you search, you really can't find exactly how much NMFS gives FWC each year. IT may or may not be more than the $40 million in licensure fees, or $1.8 Billion in sales taxes, $300 million in fuels taxes, or even more than the $150 million in bed tax revenue.

    It would be painful and the unfortuante thing is it woudl hurt our friends (tackle shop owners, charter captains, etc) much sooner than the numbnutz in government will feel it, but drasitc times call for drastic measures.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    harbison wrote: »
    We need to make our opinion known:

    Mister Nick Wiley, Executive Director, FWC:
    Dear sir, It's time for our FWC to represent the best interest of the State of Florida.
    Un-supported, over-zealous, regulations has succeeded in bringing Florida's entire fishing community to a halt. Florida depends on tourist dollars. The NOAA, not known for using science in its rule-making processes, has decreed that non-commercial fishermen (private individuals who plan on personally eating their catch) may only keep gag grouper caught in the Gulf of Mexico from July 1 through Oct. 31 when they fish nine miles or more offshore. Florida wants to adopt the same rules in state waters, fewer than nine miles offshore. (Tallahassee Democrat) What this amounts to is that when gag migrate to State waters, they would be completely off limits to the recreational fisherman, including, spend my money in Florida, tourist. This, combined with a very short Summer only American red snapper season, means our tourist trade will spend their millions of dollars in places where they can actually catch & keep fresh fish, really fresh fish. Most, "fresh fish" in our markets are at least 10-12 days old. Just think what adds such as:
    "FLORIDA home of really fresh fish...you catch, you eat, the same day," could mean to our tourist trade. Do we really want our, or what should be our, tourist dollars spent in places like Texas?
    Texas state waters (extending 9 miles) has a year round open ARS season and a 4 per person bag limit. This flies directly in the face of Florida who was forced by amendment 30(b) to comply with federal regulations. Because of this, Texas is able to harvest a much larger percentage of the total ARS as compared to Florida. This is a major contributing factor to the shorter than average recreational season despite an increase in the TAC. (Tallahassee Democrat) This, along with a very extended Texas gag season is also, "A major contributing factor" in the loss of Florida's billion dollar tourist trade.
    It's time for our FWC to represent the best interest of the State of Florida, We, the peoples of Florida are, or should be, more important than the cash flow from NOAA!
    Bob Harbison Native recreational Florida fisherman & hunter
    Mister Wiley:
    0e7af310.jpg

    Dear Mr. Wiley:
    I am writing to express my views on how wrongheaded it is for FWC to adopt the misguided NMFS proposed rules for grouper.
    By having state waters open for grouper form July 1 to November 1 you are basically closing the west coast state waters to all grouper fishing. This violates many of the National Standards set by the MSA-RA.
    Hasn't NMFS inflicted enough damage on the state already?
    Between July 1 and Oct 1 most groupers are in 100 feet or deeper. That is at least 35 miles for most of the west coast of Florida.
    Groupers are caught in state waters between November and May.
    A query of the NMFS catch data will reveal that to you.
    It is time that you and the rest of FWC grew a back bone and stood up for the citizens you were appointed to represent, the citizens of Florida. I should not have to remind you what fishing in this state means and to shut down grouper fishing in this state (during the height of tourist season) will be an unmitigatable disaster for our tourism and economy.
    When is the FWC going to start thinking for itself?

    Sincerely,
    Bob Bryant (Florida Citizen & Fisherman)
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    Letter to the Gov

    Dear Gov Scott:
    Are you aware that the FWC is about to cave into the demands of NOAA and NMFS and in the process virtually destroy our state's tourism and status as the ultimate fishing destination.
    I have been watching all of the BP and Tourist development council ads showing that we are open for business and to come on down and that the fishing is great (and safe).
    Well I am hear to tell you that a single vote by FWC will destroy all of that and it is up to you to STOP IT.
    The FWC is planning on adopting rules for grouper that are similar to the federal rules. In a lot of cases this makes since from an enforcement standpoint, but from an economic one it is a disaster.
    The federal rules planned for 2012 is to have an open season from July 1 to November 1, during this time the waters are warm and most grouper can only be found in depths of 100' or greater or more specifically only in federal waters.
    If the state adopts these rules, then they will in effect completely shut down all grouper fishing in state waters. Grouper are caught in the shallower state waters in the months of November until May, this also coincides with the state's tourist season. Imagine for a moment a tourist season with no grouper!
    Florida is fishing and grouper are Florida's fish and for many visitors a chance to come to Florida and catch our prized fish is what their vacations are made of.
    It would be like Minnesota closing down northern pike during their tourist season.
    From an economic standpoint this will be a disaster and for what?
    To ease enforcement?
    There is certainly no scientific reason for the FWC to shut down the season during the only times when groupers can be caught in state waters.
    FWC has a history of kowtowing to the will of NOAA/NMFS all in the name of saving those precious few federal dollars that NMFS continually threatens us with. Well imagine the hundreds of millions and possibly billions it will cost the state in revenues and economic activity if FWC is allowed to make this terrible mistake.

    I implore you to listen to the citizens and visitors of this state and not to the misguided attempts by NMFS to BLACKMAIL the state of Florida into submission.

    What we do in our waters is none of NMFS's business this truly is a state's rights issues and an issue of vital economic importance to Florida.

    Tell your appointess to tell NMFS.....NO!....we will not shut down our most vital sportfishing resources during the height of our tourist season.

    A response is appreciated

    Sincerely,
    Bob Bryant
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • touchngotouchngo Posts: 73 Deckhand
    it sure isn't about the health of the gag stock, its all about the money. Its all about what is best for you, the rec fisherman, economic engine. What a bunch of hypocrites.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,548 Captain
    touchngo,
    No, federal fisheries management actions are all about control of the fishermen and little to do about the fisheries stocks.
    Many of these actions are contrary to the US Constitution, where they are trying to wrestle control from the States/People when they do not have the authority to do so.
    You are intimating that the feds know better how to manage the fish stocks than the States, when in reality they do not.
    Texas was right in telling the feds to go take a hike - Florida should do the same.
    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • touchngotouchngo Posts: 73 Deckhand
    that's an opinion that benefits the rec fisherman, so that they may break the law when they catch fish outside 9 miles. If the state has info on the gag stock that the fed doesn't have, by all means lets hear it. If you want different months to fish gags, have the state try and push the feds to do it. But to go against the fed does create a hardship for law enforcement which is very important. I don't see this as a Constitution issue. This is a data issue that needs to be resolved. That's where all the problems start and end.
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,548 Captain
    The feds have no right or authority to tell the States how to manage their affairs in State-managed lands, (refer to the 10th Amendment), no matter the excuse at the time.

    In addition, the feds should not be passing laws that they cannot enforce, especially laws that are being pushed by a minority extremist group (enviros) - anybody remember prohibition?
  • rickcrickc Posts: 9,170 Officer
    Tom Hilton wrote: »
    The feds have no right or authority to tell the States how to manage their affairs in State-managed lands, (refer to the 10th Amendment), no matter the excuse at the time.

    In addition, the feds should not be passing laws that they cannot enforce, especially laws that are being pushed by a minority extremist group (enviros) - anybody remember prohibition?


    actually the states have done a much better job managing their fisheries than the feds.

    In Florida look what they have done with trout, redfish and snook. All are doing well. Then look what happened with Kingfish after we got the roller rigged net boats out of the fishery. It goes on and on. Look what Texas has done to the redfish and trout. Want to catch a big trout. Texas is the place. Fact is I don't know one species of popular inshore fish that is overfished or undergoing overfishing in state waters anywhere on the gulf coast. long seasons and realistic bag limits.

    Now what is the real difference between the way the state is managing their resource and the Feds.
  • EggsuckindogEggsuckindog Posts: 1,528 Officer
    Not that I am the least surprised but really, using the law enforcement excuse is lame, very lame. The fact that the feds put the season there is also not surprising either, as they stated already they closed AJ's when they did because thats when we can catch them.

    The sad part is the state going along with it, law enforcement wouldn't be harder at all, nobody is dumb enough to bother going to Federal waters in Dec and drive past all the fish to get there, especially for 2.

    Kinda like saying sure you can have a gun but bullets are $500 a piece.
    1976 SeaCraft master Angler - Merc 200 XRi
    dscf1243-1.jpg
  • rickcrickc Posts: 9,170 Officer
    Just Remember the statement below. This is where we are headed.


    http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ocs/mafac/meetings/2009_08/docs/clean_vision_2020_revisions_combined_vhm806.pdf

    Vision 2020:The Future of U.S. Marine Fisheries

    Final Report
    of the
    Marine Fisheries Advisory Committee

    By 2020, angler satisfaction is derived from the recreational fishing experience rather than the take or “kill” fish.
  • EggsuckindogEggsuckindog Posts: 1,528 Officer
    Some small boater will die in a thunderstorm trying to go, mark my words.
    1976 SeaCraft master Angler - Merc 200 XRi
    dscf1243-1.jpg
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    rickc wrote: »
    Just Remember the statement below. This is where we are headed.


    http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ocs/mafac/meetings/2009_08/docs/clean_vision_2020_revisions_combined_vhm806.pdf

    Vision 2020:The Future of U.S. Marine Fisheries

    Final Report
    of the
    Marine Fisheries Advisory Committee

    By 2020, angler satisfaction is derived from the recreational fishing experience rather than the take or “kill” fish.

    Or to rephrase, we want all fish consumed to be purchased form our government propped up and subsidized commercial fishery and noone is allowed to take the GOVERNMENT's resource for personal use.

    This is the total opposite of the game management that ushered in the protection of land anaimals and it is a stance that is doomed to fail.

    The system is stacked against us, it is time to go over their heads, we must work to change the opinion in the courts of public opinion and congress. We need to make it known that if we continue down this path that for all intense and purposes recreational fishing and all the money and jobs that go with it will be dead.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,548 Captain
    Also interesting to note that the state/fed line is nothing new - we have been fishing for decades with regards to knowing where the state/federal demarcation exists. Now, all of a sudden, "enforcement" is an issue, which BTW, if enacted as they suggest will result in what? Oh yeah, LESS ACCESS TO THE PUBLIC TRUST RESOURCE for recreational American fishermen, solely for the purpose of making the feds' jobs easier?

    Seems to me that is "enforcement" is really the issue, then they should be able to address that without further eroding our rights to fish in the process. And yes, we DO have the right to fish, despite the enviro rhetoric stating that it is a priviledge.

    touchngo stated that it's all about the fish when in reality it is not - take a look at the national standards and you will see that fishermen and their communities are also part of the equation. I heard a Gulf Council member state one time that National Standard #1 trumps all of the others, yet I cannot find any reference to that claim in the MSA. National Standard #8 seems to be egregiously overlooked or ignored by our federal fisheries managers.

    Recreational fishermen have been at the forefront of conservation for years - we have endured continuous drastic cuts in our seasons/bag limits with the vision that by doing so, we are doing our part to conserve the fisheries. It's time that we begin to say NO! to these bureucrats whose main occupation seems to be sustaining their own jobs - not the fisheries.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton


    SEC. 301. NATIONAL STANDARDS FOR FISHERY 16 U.S.C. 1851

    CONSERVATION AND MANAGEMENT


    (a) IN GENERAL.--Any fishery management plan prepared, and any regulation promulgated to implement any such plan, pursuant to this title shall be consistent with the following national standards for fishery conservation and management:


    98-623

    (1) Conservation and management measures shall prevent overfishing while achieving, on a continuing basis, the optimum yield from each fishery for the United States fishing industry.


    (2) Conservation and management measures shall be based upon the best scientific information available.


    (3) To the extent practicable, an individual stock of fish shall be managed as a unit throughout its range, and interrelated stocks of fish shall be managed as a unit or in close coordination.

    (4) Conservation and management measures shall not discriminate between residents of different States. If it becomes necessary to allocate or assign fishing privileges among various United States fishermen, such allocation shall be (A) fair and equitable to all such fishermen; (B) reasonably calculated to promote conservation; and (C) carried out in such manner that no particular individual, corporation, or other entity acquires an excessive share of such privileges.


    104-297

    (5) Conservation and management measures shall, where practicable, consider efficiency in the utilization of fishery resources; except that no such measure shall have economic allocation as its sole purpose.


    (6) Conservation and management measures shall take into account and allow for variations among, and contingencies in, fisheries, fishery resources, and catches.


    (7) Conservation and management measures shall, where practicable, minimize costs and avoid unnecessary duplication.


    104-297

    (8) Conservation and management measures shall, consistent with the conservation requirements of this Act (including the prevention of overfishing and rebuilding of overfished stocks), take into account the importance of fishery resources to fishing communities in order to (A) provide for the sustained participation of such communities, and (B) to the extent practicable, minimize adverse economic impacts on such communities.


    104-297

    (9) Conservation and management measures shall, to the extent practicable, (A) minimize bycatch and (B) to the extent bycatch cannot be avoided, minimize the mortality of such bycatch.


    104-297

    (10) Conservation and management measures shall, to the extent practicable, promote the safety of human life at sea.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    rickc wrote: »
    Just Remember the statement below. This is where we are headed.


    http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ocs/mafac/meetings/2009_08/docs/clean_vision_2020_revisions_combined_vhm806.pdf

    Vision 2020:The Future of U.S. Marine Fisheries

    Final Report
    of the
    Marine Fisheries Advisory Committee

    By 2020, angler satisfaction is derived from the recreational fishing experience rather than the take or “kill” fish.

    Or to rephrase, we want all fish consumed to be purchased form our government propped up and subsidized commercial fishery and noone is allowed to take the GOVERNMENT's resource for personal use.

    This is the total opposite of the game management that ushered in the protection of land anaimals and it is a stance that is doomed to fail.

    The system is stacked against us, it is time to go over their heads, we must work to change the opinion in the courts of public opinion and congress. We need to make it known that if we continue down this path that for all intense and purposes recreational fishing and all the money and jobs that go with it will be dead.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • Screen NameScreen Name Posts: 98 Deckhand
    The system is stacked against us, it is time to go over their heads, we must work to change the opinion in the courts of public opinion and congress. We need to make it known that if we continue down this path that for all intense and purposes recreational fishing and all the money and jobs that go with it will be dead.

    When you do that, don’t forget to let them know these other minor details. Of course, FWC knows this already:
    • Gag Grouper is in a rebuilding process and catch limits are increasing this and each successive year.
    • Red Snapper is in a rebuilding process and catch limits have increased for several previous and each successive year.
    • While these two fish are in a rebuilding program there are scores of other species that can be caught. Yes, scores.
    • There are not 113,000,000, or 40,000,000, or 30,000,000, or 2,700,000 in Florida alone (Bob Bryant, actuary) recreational SALTWATER taxpaying anglers in the US, there is between 5,000,000 (RFA) and 16,000,000 (NMFS). All other Americans (315,000,000) ARE NOT recreational SALTWATER ANGLERS.
    • While there are scores of "gamefish" reserved for recreational fishermen only, there are no fish reserved only for the non-fishing public.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    http://www.asafishing.org/images/statistics/resources/Sportfishing%20in%20America%20Rev.%207%2008.pdf

    Do some reading and when you and your industry can even come close to matching then we will talk

    BTW...when your industry start providing more than 2% of the domestically produced food sources, then maybe youy can say you are feeding Amercia....right now, not so much.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,548 Captain
    When you do that, don’t forget to let them know these other minor details. Of course, FWC knows this already:
    • Gag Grouper is in a rebuilding process and catch limits are increasing this and each successive year.
    • Red Snapper is in a rebuilding process and catch limits have increased for several previous and each successive year.
    • While these two fish are in a rebuilding program there are scores of other species that can be caught. Yes, scores.
    • There are not 113,000,000, or 40,000,000, or 30,000,000, or 2,700,000 in Florida alone (Bob Bryant, actuary) recreational SALTWATER taxpaying anglers in the US, there is between 5,000,000 (RFA) and 16,000,000 (NMFS). All other Americans (315,000,000) ARE NOT recreational SALTWATER ANGLERS.
    • While there are scores of "gamefish" reserved for recreational fishermen only, there are no fish reserved only for the non-fishing public.

    If catch limits are increasing for Gag, why the need to cut off access to the rec anglers?

    If you think Red Snapper catch limits have increased for several previous years, you are obviously hiding under a rock somewhere, as the exact reverse is true.

    Capt. Thomas J. Hilton
  • touchngotouchngo Posts: 73 Deckhand
    I've got thousands upon thousands of grouper and snapper I can go catch any time this year. You? not so much. You want to throw it in the com face, you'll get it right back from me. Fix the rec data problem then worry about us.
    http://www.asafishing.org/images/statistics/resources/Sportfishing%20in%20America%20Rev.%207%2008.pdf

    Do some reading and when you and your industry can even come close to matching then we will talk

    BTW...when your industry start providing more than 2% of the domestically produced food sources, then maybe youy can say you are feeding Amercia....right now, not so much.
  • Classy, real classy.
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    touchngo wrote: »
    I've got thousands upon thousands of grouper and snapper I can go catch any time this year. You? not so much. You want to throw it in the com face, you'll get it right back from me. Fix the rec data problem then worry about us.

    Spoken like a true resource **** fool
    You got yours and everyone lese can go screw and we should leave the conservation of our resource to the likes of you.

    As for your fix the rec data.....since 2004, that is going on 8 years for the counting impared, I have been trying struggling to change the wrong direction that fishery data is going.
    I was on the National Research Council's review of MRFSS, where WE determined it was fatally flawed.

    We offered up suggestions and solutions and NMFS was mandated by congress to have a new system in place by Jan 1 of 2009. Well it is Jan of 2012 and the system has barely just come on line.
    Having "fixed data" (oh and don't come off like the commie data is perfect, it is just as flawed as the rec data, only you guys are forced to write it down) is only part of the equaltion, its analysis and application are the other 2 parts and even if NMFS had 100% accurate data regarding NMFS, they lack the analytical will and application agenda to do the right things. THis wil remain so as long as NMFS is more concerned with the COMMERCIAL VIABILTY of the fishery than they are the biological viability.

    Now about your data. Does you data include all of the short maggots that are routinely cut up and used as bait aboard your vessel. Does it count all of the illegal shark fins that come in down below. Does the commercial data include the scores of untargeted by-kill that you do not have to report?

    So screw you about data, the commercial data only shows what the commercials want it to show.


    Use of gear like long line must go.....
    A fishery deemed in trouble needs to have all commercial use stopped
    IFQ ands catch shares need to be a use it or lose it permit that requires the end fisherman to purchase his share of the fish form the people he claims to feed and not the fish barons whoa re gaming the system.
    All IFQ and catch shares need to have trips limits establish as well, top prevent the big operators for completely **** and area and leaving it barren.



    SO when you are interested in what is actually good for the fishery...come back with your big boy pants on and we will talk until then, you are just part of the problem along with NMFS

    Editorial note: The use of your implies your as a member of the industry and not specifically you.....

    PS: How about all people should have the exact same bag limits...
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • touchngo wrote: »
    I've got thousands upon thousands of grouper and snapper I can go catch any time this year. You? not so much. You want to throw it in the com face, you'll get it right back from me. Fix the rec data problem then worry about us.

    1) NOAA refuses to fix the rec data. Not rec's fault, but NOAA's. The hundreds of millions of dollars NOAA is spending on Commercial
    Catch Shares schemes, so a small number of commercial anglers can profit is directly tied to the very lack of data we all face! With
    a limited budget, NOAA was convinced to fund Commercial Catch SHares rather than determine the health of the fisheries! Who
    benefits and who looses as a result of this?

    2) Commercial landing data is USELESS without reliable biomass data. What is the status of the Biomass data across NOAA managed
    fisheries? How reliable is it? It takes money to develop reliable data....but wait, again, Catch Shares are taking the lions share of the
    fishery budget, relegating data and science to a back seat position. Imagine if the $54 million that are being spent to benefit on
    commercial Catch Shares would go to collecting accurate data for all fisheries!

    Without reliable stock assesments, which include real biomass numbers, the commercial sector is being managed by guesswork just
    as much as the rec side is. The only difference is the ENGO influence that has made Catch Shares a Policy and taken away the importance
    of using science to base catch limits on, has favored Commercial fisheries over Recreational ones. This only happens as a result of
    corporate backing, such as the well known financiers of these schemes from the corporate world. Bottom line is the commercial preference
    in current fishery policy is bankrupting the fishery data collection, and Recreational anglers are the ones who seem to be paying the price!
  • EggsuckindogEggsuckindog Posts: 1,528 Officer
    I have the rec numbers your looking for 0 - we are not allowed
    1976 SeaCraft master Angler - Merc 200 XRi
    dscf1243-1.jpg
  • touchngotouchngo Posts: 73 Deckhand
    we are not going to agree, but why is the burden for accurate data the commercial sectors problem? Catch data is valid, and also observer info. every boat from our dock took an observer this past summer. Do you know what they do? They weigh, measure, and record every fish caught. Why can't the rec sector contribute? Capt. bob bryant brags about how much money the rec sector generates, if you wanted accurate data why not a stamp or tag that helped nmfs with funding? Also, why are the species such as red grouper doing so well, when they are predominately caught by the com sector, and the gag doing so poorly which are caught by the rec industry? I think com data is valid, and I know its a heck of alot more valid than what's coming from the rec sector.
    1) NOAA refuses to fix the rec data. Not rec's fault, but NOAA's. The hundreds of millions of dollars NOAA is spending on Commercial
    Catch Shares schemes, so a small number of commercial anglers can profit is directly tied to the very lack of data we all face! With, but why can't the rec industry contribute to
    a limited budget, NOAA was convinced to fund Commercial Catch SHares rather than determine the health of the fisheries! Who
    benefits and who looses as a result of this?

    2) Commercial landing data is USELESS without reliable biomass data. What is the status of the Biomass data across NOAA managed
    fisheries? How reliable is it? It takes money to develop reliable data....but wait, again, Catch Shares are taking the lions share of the
    fishery budget, relegating data and science to a back seat position. Imagine if the $54 million that are being spent to benefit on
    commercial Catch Shares would go to collecting accurate data for all fisheries!

    Without reliable stock assesments, which include real biomass numbers, the commercial sector is being managed by guesswork just
    as much as the rec side is. The only difference is the ENGO influence that has made Catch Shares a Policy and taken away the importance
    of using science to base catch limits on, has favored Commercial fisheries over Recreational ones. This only happens as a result of
    corporate backing, such as the well known financiers of these schemes from the corporate world. Bottom line is the commercial preference
    in current fishery policy is bankrupting the fishery data collection, and Recreational anglers are the ones who seem to be paying the price!
  • touchngotouchngo Posts: 73 Deckhand
    I'll be puttin' on my big boy pants for many more years out there pal, get used to it. Then I will teach my boys a thing or two about catchin' fish, and they will carry on. Or maybe i'll just cash in my shares to EDF and retire early.
    Spoken like a true resource **** fool
    You got yours and everyone lese can go screw and we should leave the conservation of our resource to the likes of you.

    As for your fix the rec data.....since 2004, that is going on 8 years for the counting impared, I have been trying struggling to change the wrong direction that fishery data is going.
    I was on the National Research Council's review of MRFSS, where WE determined it was fatally flawed.

    We offered up suggestions and solutions and NMFS was mandated by congress to have a new system in place by Jan 1 of 2009. Well it is Jan of 2012 and the system has barely just come on line.
    Having "fixed data" (oh and don't come off like the commie data is perfect, it is just as flawed as the rec data, only you guys are forced to write it down) is only part of the equaltion, its analysis and application are the other 2 parts and even if NMFS had 100% accurate data regarding NMFS, they lack the analytical will and application agenda to do the right things. THis wil remain so as long as NMFS is more concerned with the COMMERCIAL VIABILTY of the fishery than they are the biological viability.

    Now about your data. Does you data include all of the short maggots that are routinely cut up and used as bait aboard your vessel. Does it count all of the illegal shark fins that come in down below. Does the commercial data include the scores of untargeted by-kill that you do not have to report?

    So screw you about data, the commercial data only shows what the commercials want it to show.


    Use of gear like long line must go.....
    A fishery deemed in trouble needs to have all commercial use stopped
    IFQ ands catch shares need to be a use it or lose it permit that requires the end fisherman to purchase his share of the fish form the people he claims to feed and not the fish barons whoa re gaming the system.
    All IFQ and catch shares need to have trips limits establish as well, top prevent the big operators for completely **** and area and leaving it barren.



    SO when you are interested in what is actually good for the fishery...come back with your big boy pants on and we will talk until then, you are just part of the problem along with NMFS

    Editorial note: The use of your implies your as a member of the industry and not specifically you.....

    PS: How about all people should have the exact same bag limits...
  • saltybradsaltybrad Posts: 501 Officer
    Commercial grouper, thrown on the ice twelve days before we hit the dock. Yum... Sorry commercial rapers, fresh fish means three days or less. I tell every cut boy at the seafood counter how old his "fresh fish" is.
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