Italy

ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 1,061 Moderator
"Italy’s real problem is the debilitating combination of chronically low growth and high public debt. Low growth means living standards are stagnant and Italy cannot work off its debt easily; high debt means it cannot use fiscal stimulus to boost the economy, especially if there is another downturn."


 How close to the truth is this article Balla?


"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

Rabbi Hillel (c20 BCE)
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Replies

  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 9,873 Admiral
    edited June 7 #2
    It's the EU's fault! It's the Syrian refugees fault!

    What they really need is a universal income and deeper debt.

    Italy has big problems.
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,441 Officer
    Socialism fails every time.  
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 13,994 AG
    Yet they are allowing more entitlement seeking immigrants bent on destroying one of Europe's great cultures every day. Self inflicted destruction. 

    We are almost as stupid though.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • GardawgGardawg Posts: 7,091 Admiral
    rampant corruption paralyzes a lot of local governments

    like most of the world


    “Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.

    Heres Tom with the Weather.”
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 9,873 Admiral
    edited June 7 #6
    Italy is not a socialist country.  Not that it really matters.

    Italy's problems predate the influx of refugees.  But as many populist/nationalist arguments begin, it's generally those guys' fault.

    Corruption is part of the problem.  The lack of basic financial principles in conducting the affairs of state is another.  Lack of population growth should probably be on the list.

    We could learn lessons from all of the above.

    But are we listening? 

    Not if you view this as a culture or immigration issue, as the sheep are encouraged to do.
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,441 Officer
    their enormous social programs crippled the country.  "Free" healthcare, months paid vacation, high taxes, cradle-to-grave govt assistance, etc.. 

    I soent 6 months working there.  The people I worked with were highly educated, (mostly engineers in my field).  the work pace was 1/4 what it was in the states.  They did beautiful work, but it took forever to complete the project.  The military base I built (in 2013) was the largest construction site in Europe. (So I was told by them).  Many of the engineers I'm still in contact with have not worked since then....  Lots of paid time off! 

    Overall, beautiful country and people, but the work- pace was complete opposite from what I'm used too.  
    And, why should it?!?  The govt will take "care" of them no matter what!  

    I also noticed iced that the majority of the people lived in apartments and maybe had 1 car per family. 

    Yes, extreme social problems, thru a bloated govt will destroy a country.  (The USA entitlements programs will destroy us soon too). 
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 13,994 AG
    Italy is not a socialist country.  Not that it really matters.

    Italy's problems predate the influx of refugees.  But as many populist/nationalist arguments begin, it's generally those guys' fault.

    Corruption is part of the problem.  The lack of basic financial principles in conducting the affairs of state is another.  Lack of population growth should probably be on the list.

    We could learn lessons from all of the above.

    But are we listening? 

    Not if you view this as a culture or immigration issue, as the sheep are encouraged to do.
    If you try real hard,,,,, you may be able  to force your head into the sand just a bit deeper. 

    Sure there have been economic issues in many of Europe's nations ,,,,,,, that said it is ludicrous not to recognize the damage being done at an exponential rate due to the influx of cultural and economic damaging immigration. 
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 9,873 Admiral
    edited June 7 #9
    Exponential doesn't mean what you think it means.

    I'll tell you what's ludicrous:  Looking at Italy's problems and saying it's an immigration problem.

    But not when the immigration hammer is in search of a nail.  Some even cheer.

    Culture, they cry.  Yeah, the other guy. 

    That debt we've been building up?  Those un-affordable programs? 

    It was that guy who just came across the sea's fault.

    Until it's your fault and you realize it always was. 

    Head in the sand, indeed.
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,441 Officer
    I only imagine the guy, who is actually from Italy, might disagree with you...
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 9,873 Admiral
    edited June 7 #11
    He will agree with all the problems I described.  Not a single one is debatable, to be frank.  The only subjective part of the conversation, which to your observation I'm sure he will disagree with, is their relative weight.  In other words, which is the biggest "problem".  He's already voiced his opinion on the topic of immigration, and I don't expect it will change.  I'm cool with disagreement.  Are you?
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 13,994 AG
    edited June 7 #12
    Exponential doesn't mean what you think it means.

    I'll tell you what's ludicrous:  Looking at Italy's problems and saying it's an immigration problem.

    But not when the immigration hammer is in search of a nail.  Some even cheer.

    Culture, they cry.  Yeah, the other guy. 

    That debt we've been building up?  Those un-affordable programs? 

    It was that guy who just came across the sea's fault.

    Until it's your fault and you realize it always was. 

    Head in the sand, indeed.
    Exponential defined as-.
    (of an increase) becoming more and more rapid.

    Do not be so arrogant. It is a disgusting trait that you have an abundance of.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • DropTheHammerDropTheHammer East CoastPosts: 170 Deckhand
    Q: How do hockey players stay cool?
    A: By sitting next to the fans.
    http://www.floridasportsman.com/2018/04/30/poor-mans-paella/
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 9,873 Admiral
    edited June 7 #14
    I'm not trying to be arrogant.  Just trying to be accurate and objective.  You know, not keeping my head in the sand.

    Exponential:


    Linear:



    Tell us which resembles Italy's problems, Fins?  (Hint: It's the one that's the population of Italy).

    However, let's think outside the immigration box for a moment.  Might the blame be this graph: 



    Or are you suggesting it's really this one that's to blame:



    And if so, kindly compare and contrast the USA and Italy graphs and then talk again....

    ...or maybe call me a few more names.  :)
  • fins4mefins4me Posts: 13,994 AG
    If you do not wish to be described then alter your behavior.  My use of the term is correct. 

    Correcting someone  (especially inaccurately) certainly perpetuates your arrogant persona.
    ALLISON XB 21,, MERCURY 300 Opti Max Pro Series (Slightly Modified) You can't catch me!!!
    "Today is MINE"
  • TarponatorTarponator Under a BridgePosts: 9,873 Admiral
    Sorry, I'm not going to stop pointing out the errors in your arguments.  Your opinions are distasteful enough on their own, so please pardon me for pointing out when you misspeak.  I would have preferred to discuss the factual (and even graphical!) points of the post I just made.  Alas, it's calling names we're left with, and for that I'm partly to blame.  :(  Enjoy your evening...Mike
  • Conchy CritterConchy Critter Posts: 996 Officer
    I'm not trying to be arrogant.  Just trying to be accurate and objective.  You know, not keeping my head in the sand.

    Exponential:


    Linear:



    Tell us which resembles Italy's problems, Fins?  (Hint: It's the one that's the population of Italy).

    However, let's think outside the immigration box for a moment.  Might the blame be this graph: 



    Or are you suggesting it's really this one that's to blame:



    And if so, kindly compare and contrast the USA and Italy graphs and then talk again....

    ...or maybe call me a few more names.  :)
    and it's you not being racist 
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 9,220 Admiral
    Tarponator, I have not seen where anyone is blaming immigration for the problems facing these countries? 
     Lack of assimilation and cultural differences are a problem but not the only problem. A bloated intrusive government along with laziness and authoritarian rule doesn’t help. 
    2013 Pathfinder 22 TE , 150 Yamaha,
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,441 Officer
    Many developed nations are have huge problems coming the next generations.  
    Statisticly, the more educated you are, the less children you have.  Couple that with an entitlement govt, and an influx of lower-skilled workers(less tax $); and you will be in a mess in a few generations.  

    Its td happening now in UK, and we will be a few years behind 
  • BallaCoiPersiciBallaCoiPersici NW Italy (Laveno Mombello)Posts: 4,381 Captain
    edited June 8 #20
    "Italy’s real problem is the debilitating combination of chronically low growth and high public debt. Low growth means living standards are stagnant and Italy cannot work off its debt easily; high debt means it cannot use fiscal stimulus to boost the economy, especially if there is another downturn."


     How close to the truth is this article Balla?
    The preface of the article is political narrative (e.g. "and the xenophobic Northern League" LOL) so the article itself is based on clear political guidelines.
    Anyway although I could even agree with some pieces of their analysis the main problem, for the EU's finance sharks, is the "Italian Laboratory".
    They are yelling at populism as the "boogey man" because they are scared about the new politics path Italy is starting. They well know how Italy has the power to influence the whole Europe, they well know how Italians are, in some things, braver and smarter than other europeans.
    They also well know that if this Italian lab will have success and all the EU's citizens ask to return to being the owners of their countries it will be a huge problem for their businesses (especially for the bad ones, like illegal immigration business).

    From my side I'm pretty concerned too, not about the new route but rather because I think that this government can't resist more than 6/12 months. This mainly because the demolishing campaign ordered by the EU's sharks (and not only EU, Soros already has attacked) is already started (media, social media, celebrities, courts, unions, etc.) and it seems it will be very aggressive, but also because the government itself is weak. They defined a shared program but their leaders are deeply different and I don't believe that a shared program is that enough strong glue which can keep them together for long time.

    Anyway if they will win than it will be a interesting scenario to see.
    I'm at the window, let me some months for collecting some facts, at the moment we can do just some gossip.


    Massimo (former Ballak) - Please, be patient for my English

    My YouTube Channel

    I'm typing with my "pasta hole" closed :grin !
    Being politically correct is a self-inflicted slavery.
  • BallaCoiPersiciBallaCoiPersici NW Italy (Laveno Mombello)Posts: 4,381 Captain
    edited June 8 #21
    their enormous social programs crippled the country.  "Free" healthcare, months paid vacation, high taxes, cradle-to-grave govt assistance, etc.. 

    I soent 6 months working there.  The people I worked with were highly educated, (mostly engineers in my field).  the work pace was 1/4 what it was in the states.  They did beautiful work, but it took forever to complete the project.  The military base I built (in 2013) was the largest construction site in Europe. (So I was told by them).  Many of the engineers I'm still in contact with have not worked since then....  Lots of paid time off! 

    Overall, beautiful country and people, but the work- pace was complete opposite from what I'm used too.  
    And, why should it?!?  The govt will take "care" of them no matter what!  

    I also noticed iced that the majority of the people lived in apartments and maybe had 1 car per family. 

    Yes, extreme social problems, thru a bloated govt will destroy a country.  (The USA entitlements programs will destroy us soon too). 
    Probably you were involved into a public project, not a private one.
    Private industry here is very competitive and efficient. Think, for instance, at some Italian brands (banal examples: Ferrari, Beretta, Gucci, Barilla, etc.) and you can understand by yourself that certain results and that excellent quality are the sum of creativity, hard work, dedication and proficiency.

    Anyway, meantime, the gaps are exactly what you mentioned.
    An excessive welfare to everybody (that could be ok for the squeezed taxpayers and real poor people only, but is also available for thousands and thousands of parasites; this is the real problem) and the public companies/institutions in the hands of lazy people, unions, corrupted, political servants and so on.
    Oh, guess which is the party/political side here which collects the most votes of the public employees and meantime wants the full-inclusive free welfare for everybody ?

    Massimo (former Ballak) - Please, be patient for my English

    My YouTube Channel

    I'm typing with my "pasta hole" closed :grin !
    Being politically correct is a self-inflicted slavery.
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,441 Officer
    their enormous social programs crippled the country.  "Free" healthcare, months paid vacation, high taxes, cradle-to-grave govt assistance, etc.. 

    I soent 6 months working there.  The people I worked with were highly educated, (mostly engineers in my field).  the work pace was 1/4 what it was in the states.  They did beautiful work, but it took forever to complete the project.  The military base I built (in 2013) was the largest construction site in Europe. (So I was told by them).  Many of the engineers I'm still in contact with have not worked since then....  Lots of paid time off! 

    Overall, beautiful country and people, but the work- pace was complete opposite from what I'm used too.  
    And, why should it?!?  The govt will take "care" of them no matter what!  

    I also noticed iced that the majority of the people lived in apartments and maybe had 1 car per family. 

    Yes, extreme social problems, thru a bloated govt will destroy a country.  (The USA entitlements programs will destroy us soon too). 
    Probably you were involved into a public project, not a private one.
    Private industry here is very competitive and efficient. Think, for instance, at some Italian brands (banal examples: Ferrari, Beretta, Gucci, Barilla, etc.) and you can understand by yourself that certain results and that excellent quality are the sum of creativity, hard work, dedication and proficiency.

    Anyway, meantime, the gaps are exactly what you mentioned.
    An excessive welfare to everybody (that could be ok for the squeezed taxpayers and real poor people only, but is also available for thousands and thousands of parasites; this is the real problem) and the public companies/institutions in the hands of lazy people, unions, corrupted, political servants and so on.
    Oh, guess which is the party/political side here which collects the most votes of the public employees and meantime wants the full-inclusive free welfare for everybody ?

    Yes, it was the large "joint" military base in NE Italy.  (Private construction companies tho).  The workers reminded me of the union workers over in the states; beautiful work, but slowwww.  

    My my encounters were with the managers, owners, over the large construction firms; so not always the everyday guys in the field.  Even the US military brass were a little taken back at the lack of urgency of the timelines...  

    I imagine private companies are more efficient. (Like they are here in the US) 
  • ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 1,061 Moderator
    "Italy’s real problem is the debilitating combination of chronically low growth and high public debt. Low growth means living standards are stagnant and Italy cannot work off its debt easily; high debt means it cannot use fiscal stimulus to boost the economy, especially if there is another downturn."


     How close to the truth is this article Balla?
    The preface of the article is political narrative (e.g. "and the xenophobic Northern League" LOL) so the article itself is based on clear political guidelines.
    Anyway although I could even agree with some pieces of their analysis the main problem, for the EU's finance sharks, is the "Italian Laboratory".
    They are yelling at populism as the "boogey man" because they are scared about the new politics path Italy is starting. They well know how Italy has the power to influence the whole Europe, they well know how Italians are, in some things, braver and smarter than other europeans.
    They also well know that if this Italian lab will have success and all the EU's citizens ask to return to being the owners of their countries it will be a huge problem for their businesses (especially for the bad ones, like illegal immigration business).

    From my side I'm pretty concerned too, not about the new route but rather because I think that this government can't resist more than 6/12 months. This mainly because the demolishing campaign ordered by the EU's sharks (and not only EU, Soros already has attacked) is already started (media, social media, celebrities, courts, unions, etc.) and it seems it will be very aggressive, but also because the government itself is weak. They defined a shared program but their leaders are deeply different and I don't believe that a shared program is that enough strong glue which can keep them together for long time.

    Anyway if they will win than it will be a interesting scenario to see.
    I'm at the window, let me some months for collecting some facts, at the moment we can do just some gossip.


    Thank you.
    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

    Rabbi Hillel (c20 BCE)
  • mustang190mustang190 Posts: 9,220 Admiral
    their enormous social programs crippled the country.  "Free" healthcare, months paid vacation, high taxes, cradle-to-grave govt assistance, etc.. 

    I soent 6 months working there.  The people I worked with were highly educated, (mostly engineers in my field).  the work pace was 1/4 what it was in the states.  They did beautiful work, but it took forever to complete the project.  The military base I built (in 2013) was the largest construction site in Europe. (So I was told by them).  Many of the engineers I'm still in contact with have not worked since then....  Lots of paid time off! 

    Overall, beautiful country and people, but the work- pace was complete opposite from what I'm used too.  
    And, why should it?!?  The govt will take "care" of them no matter what!  

    I also noticed iced that the majority of the people lived in apartments and maybe had 1 car per family. 

    Yes, extreme social problems, thru a bloated govt will destroy a country.  (The USA entitlements programs will destroy us soon too). 
    Probably you were involved into a public project, not a private one.
    Private industry here is very competitive and efficient. Think, for instance, at some Italian brands (banal examples: Ferrari, Beretta, Gucci, Barilla, etc.) and you can understand by yourself that certain results and that excellent quality are the sum of creativity, hard work, dedication and proficiency.

    Anyway, meantime, the gaps are exactly what you mentioned.
    An excessive welfare to everybody (that could be ok for the squeezed taxpayers and real poor people only, but is also available for thousands and thousands of parasites; this is the real problem) and the public companies/institutions in the hands of lazy people, unions, corrupted, political servants and so on.
    Oh, guess which is the party/political side here which collects the most votes of the public employees and meantime wants the full-inclusive free welfare for everybody ?

    Yes, it was the large "joint" military base in NE Italy.  (Private construction companies tho).  The workers reminded me of the union workers over in the states; beautiful work, but slowwww.  

    My my encounters were with the managers, owners, over the large construction firms; so not always the everyday guys in the field.  Even the US military brass were a little taken back at the lack of urgency of the timelines...  

    I imagine private companies are more efficient. (Like they are here in the US) 
    Aviano AB? Went there TDY a couple of times back in the early 80's. One of the best kept secrets in the Air Force!
    2013 Pathfinder 22 TE , 150 Yamaha,
  • MelbourneMarkMelbourneMark Posts: 1,441 Officer

    Aviano AB? Went there TDY a couple of times back in the early 80's. One of the best kept secrets in the Air Force!
    ~20 min from there.  Dal molin or dal-den? (They changed name at some point).   
    It is in Vicenza,  beautiful area.   I got drunk with some soldiers from aviano at a bar... Big mistake to try to drink with soldiers! 
  • RStyleRStyle Posts: 1,287 Officer
    On the other hand...... I am today in my 10th day in an Agriturismo outside Montepulciano. I have been visiting all the adjacent towns.
    1) no garbage anywhere on the roads or cities
    2) no graffiti anywhere
    3) all bathrooms ( hotels, restaurants, piazzas, parks, monuments)
        are SUPER cleanñ
    4) very few overweight people
    5) have not seen a  McDonald, Burger King,  Subway, KFC since
        I got here. Not even on major road exits
    6) very safe. Even in major cities where petty theft and pickpockets
        are the major crime. None in smaller towns
    7) a great majority of people speak English and/or Spanish
    8) people are friendly and helpful
    9) food is fresh and good

    maybe a bad place to live or be a citizen, but a beautiful and safe place to visit
  • Soda PopinskiSoda Popinski GrovelandPosts: 7,973 Admiral
    RStyle said:
    On the other hand...... I am today in my 10th day in an Agriturismo outside Montepulciano. I have been visiting all the adjacent towns.
    1) no garbage anywhere on the roads or cities
    2) no graffiti anywhere
    3) all bathrooms ( hotels, restaurants, piazzas, parks, monuments)
        are SUPER cleanñ
    4) very few overweight people
    5) have not seen a  McDonald, Burger King,  Subway, KFC since
        I got here. Not even on major road exits
    6) very safe. Even in major cities where petty theft and pickpockets
        are the major crime. None in smaller towns
    7) a great majority of people speak English and/or Spanish
    8) people are friendly and helpful
    9) food is fresh and good

    maybe a bad place to live or be a citizen, but a beautiful and safe place to visit
    Nice.   Sounds like a solid place to visit.  
    People use statistics the way a drunk uses a street light, for support rather than illumination.
  • ferris1248ferris1248 Posts: 1,061 Moderator
    RStyle said:
    On the other hand...... I am today in my 10th day in an Agriturismo outside Montepulciano. I have been visiting all the adjacent towns.
    1) no garbage anywhere on the roads or cities
    2) no graffiti anywhere
    3) all bathrooms ( hotels, restaurants, piazzas, parks, monuments)
        are SUPER cleanñ
    4) very few overweight people
    5) have not seen a  McDonald, Burger King,  Subway, KFC since
        I got here. Not even on major road exits
    6) very safe. Even in major cities where petty theft and pickpockets
        are the major crime. None in smaller towns
    7) a great majority of people speak English and/or Spanish
    8) people are friendly and helpful
    9) food is fresh and good

    maybe a bad place to live or be a citizen, but a beautiful and safe place to visit
    Are you staying on the same farm the whole time or moving around?
    "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole of the law. The rest is commentary."

    Rabbi Hillel (c20 BCE)
  • restlessnativerestlessnative Posts: 1,969 Captain
    edited June 8 #29
    My dad was stationed in Aviano for 3 years. Wish I could still hear his stories as there were some great ones. I know this doesn’t have anything to do with OP but reminded me of him. 
  • BallaCoiPersiciBallaCoiPersici NW Italy (Laveno Mombello)Posts: 4,381 Captain
    RStyle said:
    On the other hand...... I am today in my 10th day in an Agriturismo outside Montepulciano. I have been visiting all the adjacent towns.
    1) no garbage anywhere on the roads or cities
    2) no graffiti anywhere
    3) all bathrooms ( hotels, restaurants, piazzas, parks, monuments)
        are SUPER cleanñ
    4) very few overweight people
    5) have not seen a  McDonald, Burger King,  Subway, KFC since
        I got here. Not even on major road exits
    6) very safe. Even in major cities where petty theft and pickpockets
        are the major crime. None in smaller towns
    7) a great majority of people speak English and/or Spanish
    8) people are friendly and helpful
    9) food is fresh and good

    maybe a bad place to live or be a citizen, but a beautiful and safe place to visit
    Great. It’s my hunting “home” around there, in Pienza.
    You are in one the best area in Italy, probably the best one for food and wine.
    If you want to buy some fine wine go to Ghino (enoteca di Ghino) in Pienza (and say you were there under my suggestion: Massimo, show him this pic).


    Massimo (former Ballak) - Please, be patient for my English

    My YouTube Channel

    I'm typing with my "pasta hole" closed :grin !
    Being politically correct is a self-inflicted slavery.
  • BallaCoiPersiciBallaCoiPersici NW Italy (Laveno Mombello)Posts: 4,381 Captain


    Aviano AB? Went there TDY a couple of times back in the early 80's. One of the best kept secrets in the Air Force!
    ~20 min from there.  Dal molin or dal-den? (They changed name at some point).   
    It is in Vicenza,  beautiful area.   I got drunk with some soldiers from aviano at a bar... Big mistake to try to drink with soldiers!




    Del Din base camp, built in the area of the former civil airport Tommaso Dal Molin. Both names are still used.
    Massimo (former Ballak) - Please, be patient for my English

    My YouTube Channel

    I'm typing with my "pasta hole" closed :grin !
    Being politically correct is a self-inflicted slavery.
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