FYI - Navionics Launches Post Irma South FL Remapping Effort

captfields85captfields85 Posts: 50 Greenhorn
Looks like a great plan being put into motion with a bunch of supporting companies and great people! Good to see!

https://www.navionics.com/usa/blog/post/navionics-launches-post-irma-remapping-effort/

Replies

  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 2,757 Captain
    One small problem for those that fish out of Flamingo.... After the Coast Guard abandoned the marker system that takes you through the interior (****, Whitewater, and Oyster Bays - then into the Shark river drainage and out the Little Shark River... a 20 mile run from the inside boat ramp at Flamingo...) the Park Service decided to remove the remaining markers, without asking for comment from folks that know that area.... After some protests (me, in the lead since I believe it directly endangers newcomers...) the Park Service said "Well everybody has a chartplotter that still shows the old markers" (or words to that effect...). The Park Service had only removed a bit more that half of them when the hurricane came along and pretty much finished the job, with only a few exceptions...

    Now that there's a "re-mapping" effort underway - the old marker system will simply disappear on every machine that uses the new chips.... Not a problem for someone like me that learned the area long before GPS came along - but a significant problem for first timers and other folks who long have relied on their plotters....

    Oh well, the Park Service has said "it's supposed to be a wilderness area" (and that's after the Coast Guard installed and maintained that marker system at the Park's request for years and years....). You suppose those old managers knew something that the current folks have forgotten? It's awful easy to get turned around (just plain lost....) in the backcountry - and in an era when you rarely ever see a ranger in that area....

    For folks who don't know the 'Glades - the area I'm talking about is roughly 20 miles east to west and forty miles north to south (from Lostman's River down to Cape Sable)....
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • mikenavmikenav Posts: 616 Officer
    If you (or other people) know for sure where the markers were, or are supposed to be, there is the Community Edits function on Navionics that allows you to note their placement. They will then show up on every chart that gets updated moving forward.
  • lemaymiamilemaymiami Posts: 2,757 Captain
    When I get a moment I'm actually going to post up the exact location of most of the old markers (since I had them loaded as waypoints - long before gps units with charts ever came along...) for everyone to use...
    Tight Lines
    Bob LeMay
    (954) 435-5666
  • mikenavmikenav Posts: 616 Officer
    Please do! could be very helpful
  • Skinny RunningSkinny Running Posts: 66 Greenhorn
    mikenav wrote: »
    If you (or other people) know for sure where the markers were, or are supposed to be, there is the Community Edits function on Navionics that allows you to note their placement. They will then show up on every chart that gets updated moving forward.

    Why doesn't navionics just do it themselves and make sure it is exactly correct instead of hoping someone else might report it correctly and do their work for them? Nothing but excuses year after year. I lost any confidence in those user provided edits a long time ago and tossed it in a drawer for most trips. Its only useful out in deeper water along the reefs. What kind of mapping model is this hoping someone else sends you the data? "You guys tell us where stuff is and we will put in on and hope it right. If its not right, too bad". This perhaps works in isolated places but based on the latest analysis of what is in SFL and the everglades at this time Community Edits is pretty much a complete fail. Virtually every marker in the channels through the everglades are wrong or missing. More than 1/2 of the markers in the main channel at Flamingo are wrong or missing. None of the hundreds of park service nav,.aides are noted anywhere, there is NO poll and troll areas noted, none of the new corridors are noted. and they have been in place for a year, the signs are missing, the posts are missing and the photos pretty much totally blow. Navionics is a total fail in the Everglades. I am sorry but that is just the way it is. You can't navigate with it with any confidence in any place outside of deep marked channels and its horrible for scouting any place to fish. It's been this way for years. Why don't you pack in the excuses and just fix it once and for all and do it accurately and the way it should be done and quit hoping someone else might do it for you? Such a disappointment. By the way, so much of the stuff you advised a long time ago you would look into to get fixed such as that totally missing jetty on the east coast is still not fixed. Community Edits? I am sorry but I think not.
  • SeaBoss180ccSeaBoss180cc Posts: 88 Greenhorn
    He's mad...
  • mikenavmikenav Posts: 616 Officer
    Why doesn't navionics just do it themselves and make sure it is exactly correct instead of hoping someone else might report it correctly and do their work for them? Nothing but excuses year after year. I lost any confidence in those user provided edits a long time ago and tossed it in a drawer for most trips. Its only useful out in deeper water along the reefs. What kind of mapping model is this hoping someone else sends you the data? "You guys tell us where stuff is and we will put in on and hope it right. If its not right, too bad". This perhaps works in isolated places but based on the latest analysis of what is in SFL and the everglades at this time Community Edits is pretty much a complete fail. Virtually every marker in the channels through the everglades are wrong or missing. More than 1/2 of the markers in the main channel at Flamingo are wrong or missing. None of the hundreds of park service nav,.aides are noted anywhere, there is NO poll and troll areas noted, none of the new corridors are noted. and they have been in place for a year, the signs are missing, the posts are missing and the photos pretty much totally blow. Navionics is a total fail in the Everglades. I am sorry but that is just the way it is. You can't navigate with it with any confidence in any place outside of deep marked channels and its horrible for scouting any place to fish. It's been this way for years. Why don't you pack in the excuses and just fix it once and for all and do it accurately and the way it should be done and quit hoping someone else might do it for you? Such a disappointment. By the way, so much of the stuff you advised a long time ago you would look into to get fixed such as that totally missing jetty on the east coast is still not fixed. Community Edits? I am sorry but I think not.


    I fish quite a bit in the Everglades and have rarely run into a place where things are as messed up as you describe. Now, the Everglades are a pretty big place and where you're fishing and witnessing things is most likely different than where I am, so things like "More than 1/2 of the markers in the main channel at Flamingo are wrong or missing" are way more helpful than "Navionics is a total fail in the Everglades". I also think this new initiative that they announced is designed to (or at least a pretty good opportunity to) fix all those problems you noted.

    As for the overall model of Community Edits. It just seems to make sense that, since there aren't 100 Navionics employees working everyday in Florida, people who are on the water everyday be able to update the maps in a way that may help other boaters. I think the original intent was more for "Hey! There's a channel marker missing" or "Hey! There's a partially submerged boat barely outside of the channel", as opposed to having someone note an entirely missing channel marker system, or using Community Edits to update missing or sunken hazards after a hurricane.

    All that said, what missing jetty on the east coast are you talking about? Where?
  • Skinny RunningSkinny Running Posts: 66 Greenhorn
    The same jetty someone posted some photos of off of Google about 3 years ago asking why it was missing. I think it was right here on this Forum before I was actually even a poster here and just a reader. You don't remember that photo showing the huge jetty in the ICW that is missing on your map? Hard to miss. Well, it's still missing on the latest update years later. And the fact you don't know where it is today says quite a bit about the attention to detail among the staff. I am sorry. I am not trying to be a jerk but that is the truth. Someone has to say it. Community Edits are not working there either. I'd tell you where the Jetty is but honestly I'm so pissed that you don't know where it is I'm not inclined to help. I give up on Navionics. Last year I got the recent update you were touting assuming it would be fixed and it wasn't. I run all over Florida and its a total waste of money imo. If something as obvious and dangerous as that Jetty which as been in the water for years now is still not fixed I give up. I think my Navionics chip is pretty much outdated junk at this point for inshore use. It's not just about the Jetty. There are literally hundreds of important nav aides and features all over the place in the Everglades alone that are also totally missing on Navionics. The photos all over the place are still a disaster on age and clarity and and the missing ones in the Park that were missing years ago are still totally missing. If you run the Park you can't miss them and if you are not noticing that, then either you are not running the Park or you are in the wrong line of work. When you run in the north part of the State it's just as bad.

    There is no way the public is going to correct all of the incorrect and missing data on your chart and whatever you do get is all suspect. People buy your stuff because they expect it to be up to date and accurate. I think many users are going to wonder why the company is not doing its own charting and verifying for accuracy what goes on instead asking users to do it for them and hoping its right. I don't think that is what most of your customers expect they will be getting when they sign up but that is exactly what they get. Go down to the busy boat ramp around one of the main bridges in Tampa or Miami one Saturday morning and watch the Ramp follies for a couple of hours. You want all of these people doing your map documentation? You think it's going to be an accurate product with that? Based on your posts I guess that answer is surely a big Yes but I'll take a pass. I want pros with an eye for attention to detail doing it and that is clearly not the case over at Navionics at this time. If the best you have is we can't hire people to do it and we can't or won't do it so we have to ask the public to do it for us that is not going to garner a wealth of confidence and it shouldn't. If that model worked it would have worked already and based on all of the substantive inaccuracies and missing features on chart today, continuing to go down that road is a pipe dream. Collect all the contours you want in the ocean and primary passes from users . That will do nothing to fix most of the chart.
  • mikenavmikenav Posts: 616 Officer
    I think you are referring to the new jetty that was constructed in the Intracoastal in Fort Pierce. It was brought up on this forum about three years ago and it was added less than two weeks later after I saw the post and asked to have it corrected. So, if that's what's been bothering you for the past three years, I'm sorry. Now, if there is another jetty that I am not aware of, please let me know where it is and we'll see if we can get it corrected just like the first one. Or, if you need help updating your Navionics chip to show that jetty, please let me know.

    As for your second paragraph, it is obvious you are not entirely clear on the whole idea behind Navionics and what it is meant to do. Let's start with the basic function of Navionics -- to show highly detailed, updateable maps with one-foot contours which should enhance fishing and increase safety in boating. Just that. Look at your updated chart, see where the contours go from 3 feet to 1 foot and realize you may not be able to get through there. Of course, you can look over the gunwales and see for yourself, but the chart should at least give you an idea. Are they 100 percent correct everywhere? No. Weather, tides and other outside effects can change those contours at any given time. Are they more accurate and better than pretty much anything on the market right now? From what I've seen, yes. I've seen charts on plotters in the store for sale right now that are so off (St. Lucie inlet for example) it would be unsafe to follow them. You can't say that about the Navionics charts in that area. If you know of a place where the contours are wrong, this would be a good place to post that. Lats and Longs help in that case, as opposed to just writing "The Everglades". That's what Navionics is designed to do.

    The Community Edits, Dock-to-dock autorouting and the other features are added features. ADDED. EXTRA. The Community Edits are designed to enhance the charts and, like i pointed out yesterday, supposed to be used to alert other boaters to hazards or spots of interest. If you don't like them or trust them, turn them off. If you at least want an idea that there may be something to keep an eye out for, leave them on. These are an added feature and will not affect the basic function of the one-foot contours and map detail that Navionics is built on.

    "Go down to the busy boat ramp around one of the main bridges in Tampa or Miami one Saturday morning and watch the Ramp follies for a couple of hours. You want all of these people doing your map documentation?"
    Actually, yes I would. One of ways the charts get updated is through users doing their own Sonar Scans. Regardless of whether you know how to put a boat on a trailer, or how to act in a crowd of boats or drink too many beers out on Shell Key, you can do Sonar Scans. They are fool proof. Start track, stop track, upload (some plotters do that themselves). Again, you seem to have a problem with the Community Edits these people may or may not be adding. Simply turn them off. You still have the contours and the jetties and detailed maps to go by.

    If this is true -- " I give up on Navionics." -- then thank you for your input. It's always good to hear both sides of story. All I ask is that you be fair (and informative where possible) if you're going to criticize. To that point, here is a screenshot of the jetty I think you're talking about.
  • Skinny RunningSkinny Running Posts: 66 Greenhorn
    This is what my GPS shows the way I would run around with it. And with photos on, there are no contours at all even with all map features on.

    ft_prc_navionics.jpg

    And this is a new card I got last year after the new photos were advertised as so much better. Well, there is nothing new here on the photos. This photo looks to be the better part of 10 yrs old and is nearly useless. And it is not atypical. Most of the photos are like this. So disappointed to have spent the money for a Plat+ product where so much of it is so out of date and wrong. To me, its just a depth contour map more than anything else. I am sure I could have spent a lot less to get a map only.

    Because of this, I only consider looking at it on the rare occasions I might fish offshore. Inshore, in this area or any area like it there far better options available now that have everything updated and accurately presented with recent Google like photos. That works much better around the inshore areas of Florida for fishing. But I appreciate you letting me know to turn off the photos to get a better read when I might use it again running offshore on a calm day.
  • mikenavmikenav Posts: 616 Officer
    Sorry for the delay, I wanted to check some things out. Just out of curiosity, When did you originally buy your chip? The satellite portion of the chart will not change when you update your chip. It's on a different layer that is untouchable.

    But the jetty should show up when you have the satellite off.

    For what it's worth, that jetty shows up on everything I've looked at the past few days. And now, of course, it won't let me upload the screenshot of that!
  • Skinny RunningSkinny Running Posts: 66 Greenhorn
    mikenav wrote: »
    Sorry for the delay, I wanted to check some things out. Just out of curiosity, When did you originally buy your chip? The satellite portion of the chart will not change when you update your chip. It's on a different layer that is untouchable.

    But the jetty should show up when you have the satellite off.

    For what it's worth, that jetty shows up on everything I've looked at the past few days. And now, of course, it won't let me upload the screenshot of that!

    Mike
    I got the updated new chip you had promoted last year. It has the updated images you had advised last year were now released on the Plat+ as part of an update. You posted some examples last year of some places. They are not the greatest but those are on. This is the latest as far as I know. If you go into a West Marine and ask to see what the latest is to load into a unit, the Jetty is not on there just like what I got. If you have now updated it again, there are still lots of packages in stores with cards just like the one I got being sold. Also, spare us (I see it on my IPAD). I don't know if its on that or not but it makes no difference. Most use GPS chartplotters with chips and if you bought that the fact it might be updated somewhere on an app somewhere else does nothing to address the problem.

    I never did it before but turned off the photos and now can see the Jetty. But that is not why I got this product and that is not the way I would ever use it. I was hoping the new one would have this fixed but found last year it was its pretty much the same as the card from a few years ago. Really no really meaningful changes at all that I could see. A few photos are different but the photos and accuracy and detail around close to shore remain the same and honestly its overall poor and its consistent from the north to the south. The "hope the users do the updates good" plan hasn't worked so well and it has been in place for a long time. I am not sure why you believe this new push for general public users to send in data would produce any different results and fix all of the map problems when they have been doing such a mediocre job for so long. Some of us are much more interested in everything else as opposed to just 1' contours in deep passes and the ocean. An up to date of photo of a Primary Jetty that has been there for years would be a good start. They are still selling chips with this glaring problem and there are plenty of other issues like this on that card as well all over the place. Its really not about the jetty. We all know where it is even if its not on the card. It should be for sure but its the stuff that is not so obvious all over that is much more important and missing as well. The public is not going to do it even close to completely and get it right. If there was any hope for that, you would see it on the current chip and I didn't see it. Literally at hundreds of navigation features sticking up all over the place just in the glades missing. And they have been there there a long time for so many to update but its not updated. Same thing up in the big bend areas. Same thing around the Space coast and lagoon. Same thing all around Captiva or Punta Gorda or whereever else I have been over the last couple of years. Just sayin.

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