Gulf gag grouper no longer overfished

Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 467 Deckhand
I just read that gulf gags are no longer considered overfished by the powers that be.........any chance we could get a longer season for gags this or next year?
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Replies

  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,466 Admiral
    Yes
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • drgibbydrgibby Posts: 1,209 Officer
    I am not holding my breath........................
  • markw4321markw4321 Posts: 171 Officer
    Remember seasons get shorter as the fishery recovers. Cause your catching larger and more fish easier (quicker). Lmao
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Officer
    markw4321 wrote: »
    Remember seasons get shorter as the fishery recovers. Cause your catching larger and more fish easier (quicker). Lmao

    Sadly, that's not too far off the mark.

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 467 Deckhand
    Their data is a bunch of inaccurate extrapolations; they can bend the numbers so they get the result they want. Of course I'm way tired of this crap. Commercials and some charters get to fish all year long and take thousands of pounds per trip.........and somehow thats ok. It's all such a joke.
  • Mackeral SnatcherMackeral Snatcher Posts: 10,434 AG
    Riptide31 wrote: »
    Their data is a bunch of inaccurate extrapolations; they can bend the numbers so they get the result they want. Of course I'm way tired of this crap. Commercials and some charters get to fish all year long and take thousands of pounds per trip.........and somehow thats ok. It's all such a joke.

    Exactly
    THERE SHOULD BE NO COMMERCIAL FISHING ALLOWED FOR ANY SPECIES THAT IS CONSIDERED OVERFISHED.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Riptide31 wrote: »
    I just read that gulf gags are no longer considered overfished by the powers that be.........any chance we could get a longer season for gags this or next year?

    http://gulfcouncil.org/council_meetings/Briefing%20Materials/BB-06-2015/B-6(a)%20June%20Council%20meeting%20Options%20Paper%20-%202015%20Gag%20ACL%20ACT%20and%20Recreational%20Season.pdf

    yes, as A#1 said, based on what the Council chooses for a preferred TAC, the season can be almost all year.
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 467 Deckhand
    So when do they decide which route they will take?
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Riptide31 wrote: »
    So when do they decide which route they will take?

    Did you read the document, or just ask a question like Gotta Go did? without reading up and seeing what is available.

    Supposedly, at this upcoming June meeting in Key West. You want to voice your opinion...... show up.

    Read the document. Be part of the solution, not the problem. Gotta Go didn't obviously read it; he thinks the Council is going to restrict gag season.

    read the document.


    Big thing with gag is that the assessment may be optimistic, given the recent red tide.
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 467 Deckhand
    What a condescending ***** you are. Yes, I scanned it but didn't have 4 hours to highlight it and memorize it. Some of us have real jobs instead of being full time internet "tough guys". What fantasyland do you live in where you think that this council has ever or will seriously take into consideration what the public has to say when it comes to its governing decisions?
    Don't you have an ocean to go **** or something?
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Riptide31 wrote: »
    What a condescending ***** you are. Yes, I scanned it but didn't have 4 hours to highlight it and memorize it. Some of us have real jobs instead of being full time internet "tough guys". What fantasyland do you live in where you think that this council has ever or will seriously take into consideration what the public has to say when it comes to its governing decisions?
    Don't you have an ocean to go **** or something?

    Did not mean to sound condescending at all; sorry if I did. Someone asked if the season would get longer, and A#1 replied a simple "Yes". Then a later reply said "they're gonna cut things down" just got to me as that is simply an inaccurate statement. All you have to do is read pages 5-12; you don't have to read a ton of pages. There are no "cuts" proposed.

    Here is the crib note:
    Action 1:
    Alt. 1: TAC stays at 3.12 million pounds (no action, no change)
    Alt. 2: raise TAC to 3.8 mp
    Alt. 3: raise TAC to 4.5 mp
    Alt. 4: raise TAC to 4.6 mp
    Alt. 5: set TAC at 5.2 for 2016, then gradually reduce it to 4.5 in 2018.

    All upward movements. One as much as more than 2 mp for 2016.

    Action 2 is season length based on what TAC is selected. Right now its 5 months - July 1 thru Dec. 3. But, basically, it would increase that season from about 150 days (July 1 thru Dec. 3) to as much as 200 days, or 250 days, or 325 days, to all year.

    Again, no shortening. No cutting. Its just how much more can you catch, and then how long will the season be to catch that increased allowance.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    BubbaII wrote: »
    Did not mean to sound condescending at all; sorry if I did. Someone asked if the season would get longer, and A#1 replied a simple "Yes". Then a later reply said "they're gonna cut things down" just got to me as that is simply an inaccurate statement. All you have to do is read pages 5-12; you don't have to read a ton of pages. There are no "cuts" proposed.

    Here is the crib note:
    Action 1:
    Alt. 1: TAC stays at 3.12 million pounds
    Alt. 2: raise TAC to 3.8 mp
    Alt. 3: raise TAC to 4.5 mp
    Alt. 4: raise TAC to 4.6 mp
    Alt. 5: set TAC at 5.2 for 2016, then gradually reduce it to 4.5 in 2018.

    All upward movements. One as much as more than 2 mp for 2016.

    Action 2 is season length based on what TAC is selected. Right now its 5 months - July 1 thru Dec. 3. But, basically, it would increase that season from about 150 days (July 1 thru Dec. 3) to as much as 200 days, or 250 days, or 325 days, to all year.

    Again, no shortening. No cutting. Its just how much more can you catch, and then how long will the season be to catch that increased allowance.

    The bigger question everyone should be asking is "If the stock is no longer overfished or undergoing overfishing, based on the new assessment, and it's recommended harvest levels are all increases, then why aren't the current quotas being caught?"

    According to NMFS SERO web site, recs caught 54% of the catch target (quota) in 2014, and commercials caught 82% in 2013 (I guess the 2014 report isn't available right now; seems like they could leave the last year's monitoring up, but....... whatever). If the fishery can't catch what is allowable now, does that really sound like the stock is in good shape and catch allowances should be increased to as much as 2X more?
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,466 Admiral
    Bubba, most of the commercials I know don't target gags and use their small allocation as a bycatch deal.

    I can understand why they don't catch their allocation.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,466 Admiral
    Riptide31 wrote: »
    What a condescending ***** you are. Yes, I scanned it but didn't have 4 hours to highlight it and memorize it. Some of us have real jobs instead of being full time internet "tough guys". What fantasyland do you live in where you think that this council has ever or will seriously take into consideration what the public has to say when it comes to its governing decisions?
    Don't you have an ocean to go **** or something?
    you need help.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    you need help.

    No, A#1, he's right. After re-reading my post, I see where it could have come off that way, and I deserved the chastise, although I didn't mean it that way. That is the problem with text; there is no tone inflection. I apologize to him and others. I guess it had just been a long day, and I replied rather tersely. But my bottom line is the same.

    As to 'commercials use it for bycatch', I can see that, but they can't exceed the quota anyway, no matter what. The bigger picture is why can't the recs catch their allocation, but the assessment says they can have nearly double? Not a good sign.

    I don't know much about grouper, except what my buddy tells me, but he said they are so cyclic that an assessment looking at 2012 would see a spike, but by the time management can react in 2015 to relax regulations, that spike is now a downturn. Man, wouldn't it be great if we could actually model ecosystem shifts into those assessments?
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Officer
    BubbaII wrote: »
    Did you read the document, or just ask a question like Gotta Go did? without reading up and seeing what is available.

    The bigger question everyone should be asking is "If the stock is no longer overfished or undergoing overfishing, based on the new assessment, and it's recommended harvest levels are all increases, then why aren't the current quotas being caught?"

    According to NMFS SERO web site, recs caught 54% of the catch target (quota) in 2014, and commercials caught 82% in 2013 (I guess the 2014 report isn't available right now; seems like they could leave the last year's monitoring up, but....... whatever). If the fishery can't catch what is allowable now, does that really sound like the stock is in good shape and catch allowances should be increased to as much as 2X more?

    Since you decided to name me in your poorly thought out position, I'll respond, with both comments and questions.

    So I can see that you like to read, or you have a good briefer telling you what you should be saying.

    Using your analytical mind, can you give us your hypothesis on stock not being overfished nor undergoing overfishing and how that ties into larger quotas even though quotas aren't being reached?

    I will offer mine. It's something that Commercial Fishermen are very familiar with. It's called "Effort Shift". Let me know if you need help with that one.

    Since the 4 month Grouper Closure went into effect in the SA, No Quota has been met, the highest achieved quota has been for Red Grouper that barely reached over 50%.

    Now let's talk accountability....

    If Comms have IFQs, VMS, etc... and there are such strict reporting rules by dealers (Wholesale)... Why aren't the 2014 numbers available on Jan 1st or 2nd of 2015?

    How many Comms and Dealers misrepresent the grouper and call Gag a Black?

    When the SA and Gulf Councils decided to start out on their Joint Venture, they merged Black Grouper Quotas since Black Grouper is a primarily South Florida species.... and all of a sudden the numbers JUMPED through the roof with all the Gulf States dealers reporting Black Grouper sales/catches...

    So now I've presented you with Questions and Comments.

    I'm interested in seeing/reading your thoughts.

    Rob
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,466 Admiral
    I don't think there has ever been a black grouper sale at our fish house or the one I used to fish for.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • Got TA GoGot TA Go Posts: 2,608 Officer
    ANUMBER1 wrote: »
    I don't think there has ever been a black grouper sale at our fish house or the one I used to fish for.

    Never a Black Grouper brought in or just written up as a Black?
    www.gottagofishinginkeywest.com


    Hero's Don't Wear Capes....They Wear Dog Tags.
  • ANUMBER1ANUMBER1 Posts: 8,466 Admiral
    Both.
    I am glad to only be a bird hunter with bird dogs...being a shooter or dog handler or whatever other niche exists to separate appears to generate far too much about which to worry.
  • SlackerSlacker Posts: 1,393 Officer
    Get as many open days as you can. It will not hurt recs much to close the fishing outside 120 ft. I know that some guys get to the middle grounds, but they have a lot of other options out there. Maybe they can stop and pick up a limit of gags on the way in. It looks like action 1 alternative 5 and action 2 alternative 4a. Red tide did not kill many gags in Homosassa area. They are doing great.
  • CaptBobBryantCaptBobBryant Posts: 5,716 Officer
    BubbaII wrote: »
    Did not mean to sound condescending at all; sorry if I did. Someone asked if the season would get longer, and A#1 replied a simple "Yes". Then a later reply said "they're gonna cut things down" just got to me as that is simply an inaccurate statement. All you have to do is read pages 5-12; you don't have to read a ton of pages. There are no "cuts" proposed.

    Here is the crib note:
    Action 1:
    Alt. 1: TAC stays at 3.12 million pounds (no action, no change)
    Alt. 2: raise TAC to 3.8 mp
    Alt. 3: raise TAC to 4.5 mp
    Alt. 4: raise TAC to 4.6 mp
    Alt. 5: set TAC at 5.2 for 2016, then gradually reduce it to 4.5 in 2018.

    All upward movements. One as much as more than 2 mp for 2016.

    Action 2 is season length based on what TAC is selected. Right now its 5 months - July 1 thru Dec. 3. But, basically, it would increase that season from about 150 days (July 1 thru Dec. 3) to as much as 200 days, or 250 days, or 325 days, to all year.

    Again, no shortening. No cutting. Its just how much more can you catch, and then how long will the season be to catch that increased allowance.

    I think the notion that as TAC increases season shorten comes from looking at Red Snapper: Out TAC has been at its highest level in over a decade and well I do not need to tell you what the seasons are doing.

    As long as recre3ational fishermen are managed in a quota system we will end up on the losing end of the stick.
    National Association of Recreational Anglers - Add Your Voice
    https://www.facebook.com/RecAnglers?notif_t=page_new_likes
  • Jack HexterJack Hexter New Port RicheyPosts: 4,150 Moderator
    The simple reason that REcs are not catching their allotment is that the regulations made by NMFS are so restrictive that we all quit fishing for them, and most other offshore fish. They won, no fishermen, no problems. Now we're all fishing the flats for snook and redfish.
  • Fintastic.IncFintastic.Inc Posts: 251 Deckhand
    The commercial sector isn't catching their Gags because it makes no sense to the majority of the commercial fisherman that don't have much gag quota. Before they leave the pass they could go target some Gags but they get more $ for Red Grouper when they lease their catch, which most of the fisherman do. Since the majority of the IFQ are owned by people who don't even fish.
    I.e. Lease Rg for 1.00 and ex-vessel price is 4.00 = 3.00 per pd profit
    Lease Gag for 2.50 and ex-vessel is 5.00 = 2.50 per pd profit.
    www.fintasticinc.com
    Lagerhead Fishing Team
    Team Cabo Loco
  • BubbaIIBubbaII Posts: 328 Deckhand
    Got TA Go wrote: »
    Since you decided to name me in your poorly thought out position, I'll respond, with both comments and questions.

    So I can see that you like to read, or you have a good briefer telling you what you should be saying.

    Using your analytical mind, can you give us your hypothesis on stock not being overfished nor undergoing overfishing and how that ties into larger quotas even though quotas aren't being reached?

    I will offer mine. It's something that Commercial Fishermen are very familiar with. It's called "Effort Shift". Let me know if you need help with that one.

    Since the 4 month Grouper Closure went into effect in the SA, No Quota has been met, the highest achieved quota has been for Red Grouper that barely reached over 50%.

    Now let's talk accountability....

    If Comms have IFQs, VMS, etc... and there are such strict reporting rules by dealers (Wholesale)... Why aren't the 2014 numbers available on Jan 1st or 2nd of 2015?

    How many Comms and Dealers misrepresent the grouper and call Gag a Black?

    When the SA and Gulf Councils decided to start out on their Joint Venture, they merged Black Grouper Quotas since Black Grouper is a primarily South Florida species.... and all of a sudden the numbers JUMPED through the roof with all the Gulf States dealers reporting Black Grouper sales/catches...

    So now I've presented you with Questions and Comments.

    I'm interested in seeing/reading your thoughts.

    Rob

    Rob, sorry for the late reply; been on a trip to see friends out west, so this reply is a bit dated, I guess.

    Given your examples to counter my comments generally apply to the SA, I'm not sure why you're questioning my comments re Gulf gag. The NMFS website takes down the 2014 landings data because the webpage is now reporting 2015. The 2014 report on the IFQ is apparently not available to the public yet. You'd have to ask them why its June and that report isn't available; the 2014 rec catch is available.

    Below is a copy of the preferred alternative for the ACL amendment, where the SA and Gulf split black grouper. This amendment, which started development in 2009, only considered landings thru 2008, so not sure your "dealers started reporting black grouper" holds water.

    Preferred Alternative 2. Establish a jurisdictional apportionment based on the Florida
    Keys (Monroe County) jurisdictional boundary between the Gulf and South Atlantic
    Councils for black grouper acceptable biological catch (ABC) based on the following
    method: South Atlantic = 47% of ABC and Gulf = 53% of ABC (Established by using
    50% of catch history from 1986-2008 + 50% of catch history from 2006-2008).

    If you're talking about the new proposed South Florida management plan, that is still a gleam in everyone's eyes, as far as I know.

    As for gag, someone told me today that the Gulf Council punted on raising allowable catch based on SSC recommendations and public testimony from Keys fishermen. Haven't dug into that one, but from what I was told, apparently gag catches and catch per effort on the west Florida shelf is tanking. Makes sense that the Council wouldn't go forward with raising allowable catch for something that can't be caught.

    Makes sense...... gag are cyclic. The assessment has its last year of data while gag were climbing, so it projects higher catches can be made. But, in the meantime, gag are tanking and those numbers no longer apply. Maybe someday, science will be able to project those cycles.
  • aboveboredabovebored Posts: 1,227 Officer
    Aint it funny how nooa requires dealers to electronically report landings right away but typically doesn't update their website for many weeks if not months. Go figure.
  • markw4321markw4321 Posts: 171 Officer
    BubbaII wrote: »
    Rob, sorry for the late reply; been on a trip to see friends out west, so this reply is a bit dated, I guess.

    Given your examples to counter my comments generally apply to the SA, I'm not sure why you're questioning my comments re Gulf gag. The NMFS website takes down the 2014 landings data because the webpage is now reporting 2015. The 2014 report on the IFQ is apparently not available to the public yet. You'd have to ask them why its June and that report isn't available; the 2014 rec catch is available.

    Below is a copy of the preferred alternative for the ACL amendment, where the SA and Gulf split black grouper. This amendment, which started development in 2009, only considered landings thru 2008, so not sure your "dealers started reporting black grouper" holds water.

    Preferred Alternative 2. Establish a jurisdictional apportionment based on the Florida
    Keys (Monroe County) jurisdictional boundary between the Gulf and South Atlantic
    Councils for black grouper acceptable biological catch (ABC) based on the following
    method: South Atlantic = 47% of ABC and Gulf = 53% of ABC (Established by using
    50% of catch history from 1986-2008 + 50% of catch history from 2006-2008).

    If you're talking about the new proposed South Florida management plan, that is still a gleam in everyone's eyes, as far as I know.

    As for gag, someone told me today that the Gulf Council punted on raising allowable catch based on SSC recommendations and public testimony from Keys fishermen. Haven't dug into that one, but from what I was told, apparently gag catches and catch per effort on the west Florida shelf is tanking. Makes sense that the Council wouldn't go forward with raising allowable catch for something that can't be caught.

    Makes sense...... gag are cyclic. The assessment has its last year of data while gag were climbing, so it projects higher catches can be made. But, in the meantime, gag are tanking and those numbers no longer apply. Maybe someday, science will be able to project those cycles.


    Bubba

    Your back from a trip out "west" How was the Key West council meeting? Roy doing ok? Lmao
  • Tom HiltonTom Hilton Posts: 1,572 Captain
    abovebored wrote: »
    Aint it funny how nooa requires dealers to electronically report landings right away but typically doesn't update their website for many weeks if not months. Go figure.

    That's because the feds' do not want transparency in their work - we have the technology, here/now, for real-time reporting and providing that information on the internet daily for ALL to see but that's the LAST thing the feds' want.
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 467 Deckhand
    So what was the decision from the meeting? Action 1 sounds like stays the same, action 2 left the season the same?
  • mannn123mannn123 Posts: 106 Deckhand
    I believe that catch limits stayed the same and the December closure will be removed (unless ACT reached sooner) AND minimum size raised from 22" to 24".

    I think comments about the timing of the data and the cyclical nature of grouper are accurate. However, my understanding is that the decision to not loosen up restrictions based on existing data was due to anecdotal commentary that gags were scarce. That isn't what I have experienced in my area, but regardless, it just seems unfair that when the anecdotal reports support an abundance of fish, its irrelevant or otherwise can't be relied upon, but when the anecdotal reports support few fish, its the basis for the decision.

    Some might argue an "abundance of caution" approach should win out, but doesn't seem fair to me, nor does it inspire any confidence in the decision-making (to the extent there is any confidence left).
  • Riptide31Riptide31 Posts: 467 Deckhand
    Why is all this kept such a secret? You'd think if they met and decided something about public policy, that they'd post it on their website, send out an email........nah.
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